roguetrader
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Hi sall thanks for the reply, what would be the symbol of what you would be trading, for example I frequently trade the DOW by its tracking stock DIA.
Thanx
Thanx
I'm also always confused on these points. (I've only ever traded the Dow by spread-betting, myself.) Sorry to occupy your thread with my ignorance, Frugi, but do you think someone could also possibly explain what the "Russell" is at the same time? That's some other way of trading the Dow, isn't it?
roguetrader
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Roberto said:
"The Russell" as I understand it refers to the Russel 2000 small caps, tracking stock IWM
As such this would not be related to the DOW
Though it is worth mentioning there are a number of "Russell" Indices.
Last edited:
roguetrader
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sall said:
Ah that explains a lot, thought I was losing the plot as I coudn't understand how you could trade $INDU. But I kinda see now, I don't spreadbet either so didn't have knowledge of that to make the jump.
Thanx sall all is now clear
frugi
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Trinny and Susannah
This is the sort of day I like. A respectable +32 from two, though of course, according to the law of s*d, I chose to only trade one contract again :cheesy:
Two simple, clear 3 peak divergence entries. I'm definitely adding Trinny to my armoury as once again she successfully failed to confirm the rallies I eventually shorted. That's 3 indicators in my divergence quiver now! I could have squeezed a few more points out of both of them, but trade 1 ADX>30 so system said cover at 100 EMA; trade 2 I had to go shopping so closed out for safety.
Have we seen an upside BO of the hourly channel? Doesn't look very convincing at the moment. On the dailies the Dow is clinging just above its H&S neckline, but Naz and SPX haven't even retraced up to theirs yet. The Dow was repelled today by the 50 EMA too. Down till Friday I reckon, for what it's worth.
This is the sort of day I like. A respectable +32 from two, though of course, according to the law of s*d, I chose to only trade one contract again :cheesy:
Two simple, clear 3 peak divergence entries. I'm definitely adding Trinny to my armoury as once again she successfully failed to confirm the rallies I eventually shorted. That's 3 indicators in my divergence quiver now! I could have squeezed a few more points out of both of them, but trade 1 ADX>30 so system said cover at 100 EMA; trade 2 I had to go shopping so closed out for safety.
Have we seen an upside BO of the hourly channel? Doesn't look very convincing at the moment. On the dailies the Dow is clinging just above its H&S neckline, but Naz and SPX haven't even retraced up to theirs yet. The Dow was repelled today by the 50 EMA too. Down till Friday I reckon, for what it's worth.
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frugi
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Wotamess the bad
-13 from eighteen, oops. -28 all in, then.
Overtrading. Impatience. Rushed entries. Generally poor. I loathe winter, the ole brain just goes into hibernation with the rest of my extremities
Walked into the false breakdown stop run as well, like a prize greenhorn. Sold 2 on the LOD aaaargh. Still, could've been worse, recovered something from a $300 loss at least.
Newbs: Don't trade like this, it ain't elfy. :cheesy:
-13 from eighteen, oops. -28 all in, then.
Overtrading. Impatience. Rushed entries. Generally poor. I loathe winter, the ole brain just goes into hibernation with the rest of my extremities
Walked into the false breakdown stop run as well, like a prize greenhorn. Sold 2 on the LOD aaaargh. Still, could've been worse, recovered something from a $300 loss at least.
Newbs: Don't trade like this, it ain't elfy. :cheesy:
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Money_magnet1
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Hi Frugi,
Wrote a fairly long post earlier but it hasn't appeared (servers seem a bit slow as well) anyway the gist of it was that I started trading the YM this week. Despite what I said about scalping, I've been trading for 10pts+ (pinching ?) and just one contract (mostly ), scalping necessitates loading up on contracts, which is too risky at this stage.
Made one very embarrasing mistake which luckily went in my favour (in fact luck doesn't begin to describe it !).
Keep up this refreshingly honest thread, full of self-depracating humour and wisdom it really is a breath of fresh air and all the more relevant and interesting now that I'm trading as well as investing.
Wrote a fairly long post earlier but it hasn't appeared (servers seem a bit slow as well) anyway the gist of it was that I started trading the YM this week. Despite what I said about scalping, I've been trading for 10pts+ (pinching ?) and just one contract (mostly
), scalping necessitates loading up on contracts, which is too risky at this stage. Made one very embarrasing mistake which luckily went in my favour (in fact luck doesn't begin to describe it !).
Keep up this refreshingly honest thread, full of self-depracating humour and wisdom it really is a breath of fresh air and all the more relevant and interesting now that I'm trading as well as investing.
frugi
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Thanks for the encouragement folks, it means a lot.
Was paper trading today as I just don't trust myself at the moment. I feel out of sync in some inexplicable way. Well, actually not inexplicable: I think that big losing day temporarily crushed my self esteem, thus lending weight to the adage that you pay yourself no more and no less than what you think you are worth.
Looking at today's action I was happy I stayed away. A short plunge, an interminable sideways grind and then a sudden late rally. Ideal conditions for me to overtrade and get chopped up.
Here's hoping next week will bring you a fresher, faster, fecund Frugi (and some decent trades) :cheesy:
Good weekend to all.
Was paper trading today as I just don't trust myself at the moment. I feel out of sync in some inexplicable way. Well, actually not inexplicable: I think that big losing day temporarily crushed my self esteem, thus lending weight to the adage that you pay yourself no more and no less than what you think you are worth.
Looking at today's action I was happy I stayed away. A short plunge, an interminable sideways grind and then a sudden late rally. Ideal conditions for me to overtrade and get chopped up.
Here's hoping next week will bring you a fresher, faster, fecund Frugi (and some decent trades) :cheesy:
Good weekend to all.
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I know the feeling Frugi ! Every time I try to step up the contract size I seem to run into a nasty losing streak, eating up capital rapidly, then when I panic & drop down in size, winners appear !
Keep on posting, it's nice to read a good honest thread
rog1111
Keep on posting, it's nice to read a good honest thread
rog1111
Money_magnet1
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Had done pretty well this week and was all set to cap it off with a nice end to the week... Then the delivery man turned up unexpectedly with some new equipment which took me soooo long to get set up, by this time I was really pissed off and was itching to make that final cherry-on-on-the-top end-of-the-week victory trade. What happens ? Got stuck in that 'orrible sideways grind, always just on the wrong side of profit. Watched for a couple of hours hoping for a rally and finally gave up and sold at a $105 loss when the situation looked to be heading further South. No more than five minutes later (probably nearer three) the dumbass market decides it's time for an end of day rally.
It's not the money $105 ain't gonna break the bank is it, - it's just after a week of good work it's really hard to take a stupid hit on a trade you should never have made.
Whinge over.
Frugi, I also play online poker (demo money) on Pacific Poker, I read that a lot of top traders play regularly to increase discipline and it does seem to work - it's just those moments of unguarded optimism....
It's not the money $105 ain't gonna break the bank is it, - it's just after a week of good work it's really hard to take a stupid hit on a trade you should never have made.
Whinge over.
Frugi, I also play online poker (demo money) on Pacific Poker, I read that a lot of top traders play regularly to increase discipline and it does seem to work - it's just those moments of unguarded optimism....
Frugi,
Going through your posts over the last month I came across the following that you have written:-
“Overtrading. Impatience. Rushed entries.
……As I became tired and impatient……..
…the cautious winning trade didn't make up for the impatient losing ones…..”
You seem to get impatient which leads to loosing trades. It may be useful to ask why this happens and what is going on when it does. Most traders know that when they have an emotion (which could be anger coming out as frustration and impatience,) their trading will suffer. The logical reaction is to try and block out or cover up the emotion. Many techniques are available to do this. I believe that is the wrong answer. You stated…
“The subconscious is not to be trifled with, ever. It is only me who lets the market take my money, not the market.”
I spent some time at the end of 2003 going through the web site of Ed Seykota and getting to grips with his ideas which I found useful. Your statement above is very insightful and if you haven’t already seen Ed Seykota’s web site you may find it of use too. Basically his idea is to embrace emotion (as it can’t be dissected from decision making anyway as it’s the same physical part of the brain apparently according to scientific studies), and let it flow freely. It’s the subconscious trying to tell us something and if we don’t listen it we’ll just keep on bringing back the same emotion until we do.
As a side point which may be an influence I note you have a daily financial target. This may increase frustration and impatience whereas a monthly target may put less pressure on each day’s outcome. This doesn’t mean to say you can’t have daily targets such as ‘to trade x nos of set-ups consistently if they appear’. Whether you make money on a daily basis or not will be down to the market, but if the set-ups are good ones over time the money will flow.
Good luck. Apologies if the above is way off the mark or you think it’s a load of rubbish.
Cheers Tuffty.
Going through your posts over the last month I came across the following that you have written:-
“Overtrading. Impatience. Rushed entries.
……As I became tired and impatient……..
…the cautious winning trade didn't make up for the impatient losing ones…..”
You seem to get impatient which leads to loosing trades. It may be useful to ask why this happens and what is going on when it does. Most traders know that when they have an emotion (which could be anger coming out as frustration and impatience,) their trading will suffer. The logical reaction is to try and block out or cover up the emotion. Many techniques are available to do this. I believe that is the wrong answer. You stated…
“The subconscious is not to be trifled with, ever. It is only me who lets the market take my money, not the market.”
I spent some time at the end of 2003 going through the web site of Ed Seykota and getting to grips with his ideas which I found useful. Your statement above is very insightful and if you haven’t already seen Ed Seykota’s web site you may find it of use too. Basically his idea is to embrace emotion (as it can’t be dissected from decision making anyway as it’s the same physical part of the brain apparently according to scientific studies), and let it flow freely. It’s the subconscious trying to tell us something and if we don’t listen it we’ll just keep on bringing back the same emotion until we do.
As a side point which may be an influence I note you have a daily financial target. This may increase frustration and impatience whereas a monthly target may put less pressure on each day’s outcome. This doesn’t mean to say you can’t have daily targets such as ‘to trade x nos of set-ups consistently if they appear’. Whether you make money on a daily basis or not will be down to the market, but if the set-ups are good ones over time the money will flow.
Good luck. Apologies if the above is way off the mark or you think it’s a load of rubbish.
Cheers Tuffty.
SOCRATES
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Tuffty, in your post above you state that to separate emotion from decision making is not possible.
This is absolutely not correct.
What is correct, is that emotion has the faculty that succeeds in disabling the ability to act, because it impairs the reasoning faculty not sufficiently to disable it completely but to impair is function sufficiently not to allow the enactment of the conclusiion of that reasoning.
I have no problems in remaining very calm with a low heartbeat and a clear head and no emotion whatsoever, and this allows me to enact, that is to act in accordance with my reasoning, in a nanosecond, with very low energy consumption.
This is the ideal trading mode. The subconscious ticks along freely and is not impaired at all.
The route you suggest is fraught with dangers, I can tell you because I have explored all this on my own and found it to be so, furthermore it is not just my conclusion, but the conclusion of others also properly trained in this way.
This is absolutely not correct.
What is correct, is that emotion has the faculty that succeeds in disabling the ability to act, because it impairs the reasoning faculty not sufficiently to disable it completely but to impair is function sufficiently not to allow the enactment of the conclusiion of that reasoning.
I have no problems in remaining very calm with a low heartbeat and a clear head and no emotion whatsoever, and this allows me to enact, that is to act in accordance with my reasoning, in a nanosecond, with very low energy consumption.
This is the ideal trading mode. The subconscious ticks along freely and is not impaired at all.
The route you suggest is fraught with dangers, I can tell you because I have explored all this on my own and found it to be so, furthermore it is not just my conclusion, but the conclusion of others also properly trained in this way.
Socrates, so where did you get your training from and after how long did it work in principle? I have tried various techniques including Psycho cybernatics...which does help too. Tuffy has menitoned his source i.e Seykota... a well known trader. I've been delving in this area to help my trading, but have often found that a cold shower from the head to toe is useful just before start of trading, and I'm not joking. Even a cold head shower does the trick too.
SOCRATES
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I am pleased you ask this question because there are lot of corrosive and envious individuals around who think there is an easy solution, but of course there isn't and then there are another group who do not believe there is a solution at all, but there is one.
Unfortunately for most ordinary people the personal cost to them they percieve to be virtually unaffordable, therefore they remain content to remain as they are, and they grumble about their lot, and what is worse they suffer from an ingrained resentment against acheivement and seek any opportunity to invalidate whatever of merit is placed in front of them.
If you study these threads you will find lots of examples of this. It does not affect me, because I can take refuge in the sound knowledge that I have been able to crack all of it and I can prove it, but everytime a proof is offererd it attracts abuse from a small minority, until one day, it will dawn on this minority in the form of a chilling, lonely realisation they were wrong all along. I know it is already occurring amongst some previous detractors who are getting "the chills".
I was never fortunate enough to have a proper mentor. I have had to unravel the whole riddle for myself, alone. You cannot imagine what a tough journey it is. It nearly cost me my marriage, my home, my health, my sanity and £600,000 in losses before I began to learn, and easily another £3,500,000 before I could say I had finally mastered all of it, including the markets and myself.
The curious thing is, that if I had followed or tried to follow the same path by paper trading my way through it, I am sure I would never have been able to achieve it. This is because a lesson has to be painful before it can be learnt it seems. Therefore it looks as if one has to suffer in order to finally achieve. The more you suffer, the more quickly you achieve. Doing it for real makes it real, pretending does not.
Of course, a lot of it has to do with the person's character. You have to have a very strong character to be obsessively persistent in this way. What started me off was a comment from a friend who advised me not to bother because "it could not be done". So I set about this incredible, totuous, seemingly unending mission only because of the challenge, never imagining the cost, or whether there was a final solution to be found, but there is.
I say this by the way because although I have read everything there is to read, and attended lots of presentations and what are called seminars but in fact are a cruel mockery of the public by a lot of idiots who in depth do not know what they are talking about, it is as a consequence of ignoring all of that and of obsessive work on cracking the ultimate riddle and on myself and my human limitations that I have been able to master all of it.
The final leg of perfecting the correct mindset took just under 13 years of pain and graft and sleepless nights, the rest of it is the consequence of first having got involved with all of this since the age of 9 or 10.
I am now 59. It took me 27 years in total to crack the whole riddle from A to Z and to perfect the method I now use which is deadly accurate, as second nature, but it has been a hell of a struggle to get here, I shudder to remember what it was like.
Unfortunately for most ordinary people the personal cost to them they percieve to be virtually unaffordable, therefore they remain content to remain as they are, and they grumble about their lot, and what is worse they suffer from an ingrained resentment against acheivement and seek any opportunity to invalidate whatever of merit is placed in front of them.
If you study these threads you will find lots of examples of this. It does not affect me, because I can take refuge in the sound knowledge that I have been able to crack all of it and I can prove it, but everytime a proof is offererd it attracts abuse from a small minority, until one day, it will dawn on this minority in the form of a chilling, lonely realisation they were wrong all along. I know it is already occurring amongst some previous detractors who are getting "the chills".
I was never fortunate enough to have a proper mentor. I have had to unravel the whole riddle for myself, alone. You cannot imagine what a tough journey it is. It nearly cost me my marriage, my home, my health, my sanity and £600,000 in losses before I began to learn, and easily another £3,500,000 before I could say I had finally mastered all of it, including the markets and myself.
The curious thing is, that if I had followed or tried to follow the same path by paper trading my way through it, I am sure I would never have been able to achieve it. This is because a lesson has to be painful before it can be learnt it seems. Therefore it looks as if one has to suffer in order to finally achieve. The more you suffer, the more quickly you achieve. Doing it for real makes it real, pretending does not.
Of course, a lot of it has to do with the person's character. You have to have a very strong character to be obsessively persistent in this way. What started me off was a comment from a friend who advised me not to bother because "it could not be done". So I set about this incredible, totuous, seemingly unending mission only because of the challenge, never imagining the cost, or whether there was a final solution to be found, but there is.
I say this by the way because although I have read everything there is to read, and attended lots of presentations and what are called seminars but in fact are a cruel mockery of the public by a lot of idiots who in depth do not know what they are talking about, it is as a consequence of ignoring all of that and of obsessive work on cracking the ultimate riddle and on myself and my human limitations that I have been able to master all of it.
The final leg of perfecting the correct mindset took just under 13 years of pain and graft and sleepless nights, the rest of it is the consequence of first having got involved with all of this since the age of 9 or 10.
I am now 59. It took me 27 years in total to crack the whole riddle from A to Z and to perfect the method I now use which is deadly accurate, as second nature, but it has been a hell of a struggle to get here, I shudder to remember what it was like.
Socrates
You suggest the route I suggest is fraught with dangers. Your way would seem to have it's fair share of danger too. I quote "The final leg of perfecting the correct mindset took just under 13 years of pain and graft and sleepless nights".
You suggest there was a final solution (to dealing with emotion). Can you elaborate or am I missing the point?
You suggest the route I suggest is fraught with dangers. Your way would seem to have it's fair share of danger too. I quote "The final leg of perfecting the correct mindset took just under 13 years of pain and graft and sleepless nights".
You suggest there was a final solution (to dealing with emotion). Can you elaborate or am I missing the point?
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