Why do so few succeed?

[Kunal]

Seriously guys, those seemingly innocent stories are designed to manipulate and create extremely negative personality changes in anyone reading them.
The very real danger in designing them, is that the author must first take on the perceptions/reality he is hoping to induce in the reader, thereby condemning himself to make his story, his reality.
If it works, he will be his own victim, and he does believe it, else he wouldn't post it.

Do a google for "Milton Erickson" and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Or, even better, read "the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson". It's a book where his "stories" are thoroughly documented.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1555520529?v=glance

 

[wasp]

Seriously guys, those seemingly innocent stories are designed to manipulate and create extremely negative personality changes in anyone reading them.
The very real danger in designing them, is that the author must first take on the perceptions/reality he is hoping to induce in the reader, thereby condemning himself to make his story, his reality.
If it works, he will be his own victim, and he does believe it, else he wouldn't post it.

Do a google for "Milton Erickson" and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Or, even better, read "the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson". It's a book where his "stories" are thoroughly documented.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1555520529?v=glance

....or even a search on albert labos

 

[dbphoenix]

Nobody has actually had the pleasure of his acquaintance I suppose ??

Actually, yes, and the individual did a nice job of exposing Bertie's, shall we say, prevarications?

But there is a never-ending conveyor belt of new meat, some of which is unduly impressed by Bertie's meandering, which at least gives some idea of where they are on the totem pole.

 

[Quenkish]

Do a google for "Milton Erickson" and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Or, even better, read "the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson". It's a book where his "stories" are thoroughly documented.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1555520529?v=glance

Have attended Milton Erickson courses in the past, interesting, but not everyones cup of tea.

 

[Quenkish]

Rubbish? I think, that if you understand, you'll apreciate the depth to the posts. As Eric Cantona was also misunderstood by the tabloids...

Eric Cantona and socrates now that is an unusual combination. Eric Cantona dominated the premier league because he had no real competion at the time and all the other players were in awe of him. If he played in Italy who had all the true world class players at the time then he would not have had the same effect. (I was his biggest fan and a great admirer of Eric Cantona).

What socrates is trying to get accross is that the hand controls the survival of the gold fish, without the goldfish knowing it.
The same as the markets controlling the trader without the trader realising it.

 

[dbphoenix]

What socrates is trying to get accross is that the hand controls the survival of the gold fish, without the goldfish knowing it.
The same as the markets controlling the trader without the trader realising it.

What Bertie fails to mention, however, is that the market controls the trader only if the trader allows it to, either consciously or not.

Once again, verbosity masquerading as profundity.

 

[jezza888]

The fish swims around and around unttil it sees food land on the surface, he checks it is food, (occasionally its not), then eats it The next time something lands on the surface, whenever this may be, he'll try again. The rest of the time he does something else. Simple.

 

[Kunal]

the market controls the trader only if the trader allows it to, either consciously or not..

Soc's stories could take control only if the reader permits it OR is unaware of the truly destructive content of the story, so what happens to all the unwary passers by that paused to read them and unknowingly absorbed the venom?

How many are now experiencing extended unexplainable negative states of confusion, despair and long losing streaks which were created by him en masse?

 

[TheBramble]

Seriously guys, those seemingly innocent stories are designed to manipulate and create extremely negative personality changes in anyone reading them.
The very real danger in designing them, is that the author must first take on the perceptions/reality he is hoping to induce in the reader, thereby condemning himself to make his story, his reality.
If it works, he will be his own victim, and he does believe it, else he wouldn't post it.

Do a google for "Milton Erickson" and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Or, even better, read "the hypnotic patterns of Milton Erickson". It's a book where his "stories" are thoroughly documented.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1555520529?v=glance

Kunal, I'm formally trained in Ericksonian Hyponsis so also speak as someone who knows. The difference is Uncle Milt always used his stories with positive intent, to help the person he was talking to. The real skill in his technique and manner was that it was so artfully crafted. The person he was talking to didn't even realise they were being gently inducted. And his conversations and stories were so well crafted - to fit the needs of his listener - not his own. The subject was always close to the client's 'home' and superficially on a topic or subject to which his 'client' could easily and comfortably relate. The whole point of his approach is gently conversational hypnosis, without any inkling of what's really afoot, so the last thing you'd want your language to convey was anything startling or teasing - anything but the seemingly vinalla ordinary.

Posturing egoistic displays of quasi-abstract meanderings alluding to the ineffable are easy enough if you throw in enough long-ish words and obvious word play along with simplistic imaging techniques and hints of deeper meaning in the commonplace. Which we can all find. Are actually eager to find.

I think our mutual friend's intent is quite different - not opposite in intent - but different.

All terribly off-topic and I'll be sorry to see it go, but there you have it.

 

[Charlton]

Kunal, I'm formally trained in Ericksonian Hyponsis so also speak as someone who knows. The difference is Uncle Milt always used his stories with positive intent, to help the person he was talking to. The real skill in his technique and manner was that it was so artfully crafted. The person he was talking to didn't even realise they were being gently inducted. And his conversations and stories were so well crafted - to fit the needs of his listener - not his own. The subject was always close to the client's 'home' and superficially on a topic or subject to which his 'client' could easily and comfortably relate. The whole point of his approach is gently conversational hypnosis, without any inkling of what's really afoot, so the last thing you'd want your language to convey was anything startling or teasing - anything but the seemingly vinalla ordinary.

Posturing egoistic displays of quasi-abstract meanderings alluding to the ineffable are easy enough if you throw in enough long-ish words and obvious word play along with simplistic imaging techniques and hints of deeper meaning in the commonplace. Which we can all find. Are actually eager to find.

I think our mutual friend's intent is quite different - not opposite in intent - but different.

All terribly off-topic and I'll be sorry to see it go, but there you have it.

Bramble
In your professional opinion (Eriicksonian Hypnotism) do you think that the techniques could be successfully used within a purely written and anonymous medium such as this, as Kunal suggested ?

I find it unlikely unless one had an unusally high degree of susceptibility

Charlton

 

[Kunal]

Thanks Tony, I was going to suggest 2 pages ago that you or Charlton would be able to explain better but decided not to.
Some of the stories that have been posted involve changing "views" to fit the story, in a negative way. In certain cases, a person could "forget" to restore his original "settings" with disastrous results thereby carrying around his "new" outlook for some time.
Tho Sock is an amateur at it and has shown a little skill in wtiting "persuasive" sentences, the "stories" could be very damaging to the wrong reader.
While conversational hypnosis has it's place, there are faster ways to achieve the same results.
The point is whether he intended to help or harm, and since the stories contained no positive content either metaphorically or POV, my opinion is that he intended harm.
As you said " The difference is Uncle Milt always used his stories with positive intent".
I would never have said a word if his intent was positive.

>>I find it unlikely unless one had an unusally high degree of susceptibility
Yes, degree of susceptibility would determine who was affected most.

 

[Kunal]

Analyse the "stories" again.
This time note the unobtrusive submodality changes.

 

[trendie]

re: Ericksonian hypnosis.

whenever I read Socs stoires, I end up feeling very sleepy, very, very sleepy, and when I wake up on the count of three, I laugh my head off at the pointlessness of them all.


I would feel more sympathy for Socco if he posted trades, whether they lost or won, at least it would show he actually trades.

EDIT: ( to keep on topic, and to be constructive )
Why Do So Few Succeed:

I think dbp has come up with the best answer; having a profitable system.
If you have the above, the confidence comes to use it even after consecutive losses.
All the merit and ability in the world wont give you profits unless you derive some trading-edge.

Some people, I count myself among them, flit from one system to another. This is in part may be because of the failure to accept any losses at all, and/or a general fascination with the markets as a game.

The other reason for failure is expectations.
It has been said of army generals that they are fully prepared to fight the last war ! I wonder how many newbies tweak their settings to win the last few trades. Only to find the revised settings fail on the next set of trades.

I think traders who set themselves a daily target, or a modest target are more successful. For example, if the market moves 120 pips, many newbies wonder what they need to do to maximise their settings to get 120 pips, and may feel cheated if they got anything less. When, the more mature traders, may be satisfied with a system that gets them 50 of those 120, knowing that in the long run, they have a more stable equity curve, based on a more robust system.
The need to get all the pips is part of greed, and of the feeling of missing out.

 

[Trader333]

I think traders who set themselves a daily target, or a modest target are more successful

Why do you think this is the case when compared to someone who is able to read market sentiment through price and volume and therefore does not set a target ?

In my view if targets are set and results do not meet them it will put more pressure on the individual to perform to the set level in future. There are uses for targets but it is more to do with statistical probabilities than absolute requirements.


Paul

 

[new_trader]

re: Ericksonian hypnosis.

Why Do So Few Succeed:

The other reason for failure is expectations.
It has been said of army generals that they are fully prepared to fight the last war ! I wonder how many newbies tweak their settings to win the last few trades. Only to find the revised settings fail on the next set of trades.

I think traders who set themselves a daily target, or a modest target are more successful. For example, if the market moves 120 pips, many newbies wonder what they need to do to maximise their settings to get 120 pips, and may feel cheated if they got anything less. When, the more mature traders, may be satisfied with a system that gets them 50 of those 120, knowing that in the long run, they have a more stable equity curve, based on a more robust system.
The need to get all the pips is part of greed, and of the feeling of missing out.

A good post and it certainly descibes what I was like when I first started trading, and the overwhelming discipline required to avoid being like that now. Especially when I see a profit retrace to a loss.

 

[Charlton]

Some people, I count myself among them, flit from one system to another. This is in part may be because of the failure to accept any losses at all, and/or a general fascination with the markets as a game.

This is a very interesting point and I wonder if, even when someone has a winning system, there may be a temptation to flit for the reasons you specify, but also out of boredom with a system that no longer provides challenge.

The other reason for failure is expectations.
It has been said of army generals that they are fully prepared to fight the last war ! I wonder how many newbies tweak their settings to win the last few trades. Only to find the revised settings fail on the next set of trades.

I think traders who set themselves a daily target, or a modest target are more successful. For example, if the market moves 120 pips, many newbies wonder what they need to do to maximise their settings to get 120 pips, and may feel cheated if they got anything less. When, the more mature traders, may be satisfied with a system that gets them 50 of those 120, knowing that in the long run, they have a more stable equity curve, based on a more robust system.
The need to get all the pips is part of greed, and of the feeling of missing out.

Again this is excellent advice. Its a case of trying to run before you can walk. I have spent several years learning French. I understand it very well now, but still struggle with my fluency - being able to bring the correct and advanced vocabulary to mind quickly whilst in conversation.

Language learning has similarities to learning to trade, which illustrate the progress of lack or progress towards success.

It's easy to grasp some of the basics - the 'bonjours' and the 'une biere svp'. They can serve you well in straight-foward and limited situations, just as using simple techniques such as MA cross-over may serve for a time. However when you have been arrested in the middle of a riot in Paris you need a more extensive vocabulary !

Most people want to become fluent quickly, in fact more than than - immediately. They are not content with the 50 pips, as you say, but want the 120.

They struggle for while but soon come to the realisation how much dedicated work it takes. They then give up.

Those who continue at it, realise that they should let go of the idea of immediate fluency and instead, work at listening, adding a few extra words each day and practising.

One day, eventually, they realise that they are now fluent and, despite all the hard work, it seems now as if it happened without even trying. .

So in summary, success i.e. mastery requires:
- slow, steady, continuous and focussed progress
- dedication to the task
- mastery of the basics i.e. the mechanical until it becomes second nature
- willingness to learn
- lack of arrogance, because that impedes the learning process
- continuous practice, analysis of performance and refining of techniques

Charlton

 

[Charlton]

Why do you think this is the case when compared to someone who is able to read market sentiment through price and volume and therefore does not set a target ?

In my view if targets are set and results do not meet them it will put more pressure on the individual to perform to the set level in future. There are uses for targets but it is more to do with statistical probabilities than absolute requirements.


Paul

Paul
I think you have hit on an important point here. Is a lack of success due to too much focus on targets e.g. 120 pips rather than personal improvement e.g. I will learn to read market sentiment better. The former should come about as a natural consequence of getting the latter correct.

The problem is that if one advocates the creation and following of a trading plan, how can you tell how successful either your plan or your execution of that plan is ?

Absolute targets such as 120 pips or % profits provide an easily measurable way, albeit subject to the problems you have highlighted.

So the question is - are there any other ways of measuring success and a trader's evolution that contribute rather than detract from the process ?

Charlton

 

[SOCRATES]

The Goldfish.....Continued.

Now that The Goldfish is settled in The Tank, and swims about freely and percieves the world outside through the glass that he cannot penetrate, The Hand appears from time to time, to feed The Goldfish and clean The Tank and change the water.

All of this is beyond the control of The Goldfish.

The Goldfish has to resign himself to the glass prison that contains him, but the advantage for him is that The Hand looks after him, as he is not capable of looking after himself, at all regardless what in Goldfish Reasoning he may or may not think.

All is well and good so far, provided that The Goldfish behaves.

If The Goldfish does not behave and is prone to doing naughty things, The Hand does certain things to protect The Goldfish from himself.

One of the temptations The Goldfish may have, is that out of boredom, for example, he may discover he is able to jump out of the surface, jusl like a dolphin would.

This is very dangerous though The Goldfish may not realise it. He may succeed in jumping out of The Tank, and that would be a disaster. It is a situation that has to be avoided at all cost.

The Hand that feeds him and looks after him has an overview ot this that Goldfish does not have.......

In consequence of this, The Hand now fits a lid over The Tank to prevent such an accident happening. This is for the peace of mind of the owner of The Hand and for the safety and security of The Goldfish.

We have forgotten the cat. The cat ...has not gone away. He may be out of sight ....but not forgotten.

The Cat, is very different to both The Hand, and The Goldfish.

The Goldfish belongs to The Hand, and The Hand belongs to the owner of it, but The Cat belongs to himself.

And this Cat is a predator, and will equally grab mice, birds, or fish, and play with them before having them for breakfast.

The Cat is a very grave danger to The Goldfish, though the Goldfish is not aware of it.

In fact, The Goldfish is to a very large extent protected from having this knowledge, because The Goldfish cannot really fend for himself outside The Tank or even less aganst The Cat.

As The Cat cannot be prevented from being interested in The Goldfish, then the Goldfish has to be protected from The Cat, for his own good, and without The Goldfish realising it, because there is no second chance.

Now The Cat is a Very Special Creature. Those of you who have A Cat or more than one Cat or are not actual owners of a cat but are Cat Lovers, will be very familiar with the attributes and characteristics of Cats.

They are very different to other domestic pets.

They are their own masters.

They come and go as they please, they do not obey orders, they eat shrimps, but they don't do diplomacy, by the way, for those of you "in the know" so to speak...

They....do exactly as they like, when they like, and if they don't like it they don't do it at all.
They just "are", and that is enough for them and for everybody else.

 

[wasp]

Then of course, there is the dog.

The dog sits outside the cycle of hand, cat and fish and has very little to do with any of it. He merely watches due to his lack of ability, skill and/or fear of making a mockery of himself. He can see the tank, he can see and watches the fish, and watches the hand produce food and laughs at the cat, although in awe of him.

This dog, sitting on the sidelines, watches and forever professes to know the best ways for the fish and the cat to live and react to the different situations that confront them. He will insist he knows every little trick each other plays and knows exactly, in a nanosecond, just when something will happen. Although the dog sits and tries to ensure to all he knows the best way, although he never puts his dignity on the line and proves himself, he just persists in his small world of self superiority whilst the fish carry on and eat the food when it appears, occasionally get a knock on the head by the cat but invaribly sleep happy at the end of the day.

Chris

 

[brisky]

I'm new here and have read a little from this thread but wanted to add that I have learned to sell partial shares as price of a stock moves forward till you can lock in profit on the way up and then hold remaining free shares to take the ride for maximum gain. Just watch the MACD for the sell signal.