SOCRATES
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The points you raise interest me I am bookmarking your post and will expand later when I have some time.PKFFW said:I actually agree with your overall premise here Soc, some people are not suited to trading.
What I disagree with is your assertion that the reasons are many and varied. I also disagree with your assertion that some can not be a success at this business because of some force beyond their control.
The unsuitability comes down to one thing in my opinion. Those who are not willing to do the work necessary to be successful will not succeed. All else is incidental. Each man and woman must make their own choices. If something is holding them back from success at trading they can choose to quit or choose to work out what that something is and correct it. That is how it is with anything in life and trading is no different.
The work necessary to be successful will differ amongst people. Some will need specific technical knowledge. Some will need to develop discipline or patience. Some will need to work on every aspect of trading. To others it will all come easy. Whatever the case may be, if one is not willing to do the work, one will be unsuitable to the business of trading.
The idea that one must have some inborn ability, character trait or other such thing is hogwash. As is the idea that some others may be born with some trait that will exempt them from success in this business. It is spouted by some successful traders as a way of making themselves feel special for having proven a success at this business. To the successes in this business I would say be proud of having done the work to be successful. There is no need to try to raise yourself up onto some pedestal as some example of specialness.
Cheers,
PKFFW
\Ok, I have a few minutes..
You agree with my overall premise that many people are not suited to trading. I can show you that there are many people, not a few, who are not suited to trading.
You disagree with my assertations that the reasons are many and varied.
You also disagree with my assertation that some can not be a success at this business because of some force beyond their control.
Well I can tell you it is not about the work at all. It has to do with inabilities.
You will be horrified at the variety and quantitiy and intensity of inabilities that a lot of people suffer from. Some of them are really surprising. They have this effect because they are unexpected. And they are unexpected because the individuals are effectively able to hide them until an occasion arises in which they are tested. Then the Inability reveals itself.
Here are some for you to consider :~
I cannot follow the movement of the bars.
I get confused by all the colours.
I am not interested in sitting there doing nothing, I just want to get on with it.
I hate wasting time, I really do.
I wish there were some sounds, as I cannot relate to movement visually, but to sounds..yes.
I dont have the patience to sit there, I think I will go and mow the lawn ( with a position open, and without a stop)
I fall asleep in front of the monitor.
I don't understand it, please explain it again...I don't understand....please again...I don't understand ....please again...I do understand .....(he does not really at all)
I am not going to use a tight stop, I am going to use a wide stop, 60 points...
I have my own ideas which are better.
I get so emotional about this, I find it very stressful.
I have to make money every day.
If I cannot make £5000 a week then I am not interested in trading (Capital £12000)
I cannot do mental arithmetic at all, I need a calculator.
......................................and other patent inabilities.
Therefore it is inabilities that cause people to doom themselves not an inability to work.
Again this viewpoint you express also interests me and I will be expanding later when I have time.PKFFW said:If they have never tried trading I would suggest it is premature to condemn them to being unable to trade successfully.
To me your analogy simply shows someones inability to work on themselves. To use a trading reference they would be unable to admit their analysis was incorrect and hence cut their losses quickly. Instead they would stubbornly hold onto the trade thinking they were right. For this person, the work they would need to do would be on their own inability to reconcile their map with the territory. What is causing them to be this way? How do they fix it? To answer these questions takes work. They can either do the work or choose to quit. If they truly want to be successful, they will do the work.
It is within each of us to change who we are. If an alcoholic or drug addict can change their habits, why is it so hard to believe someone can change themselves when it comes to trading? Maybe it isn't hard to believe at all. Maybe for some it just feels good to believe someone else can not achieve what they have achieved?
Cheers,
PKFFW
You say above, and I quote you " Maybe for some it just feels good to believe someone else can not achieve what they have achieved ?"
You are absolutely right but not from the angle that you percieve.
What is absolutely horrific is the way people can be capable of behaving.
A few years ago I used to do seminars for people who wanted to learn about this business and were interested in becoming traders.
Now I am going to tell you something very interesting relating to the question you ask.
The obedient and disciplined ones went away and worked and became successful.
The disobedient and undisciplined ones gathered in a group to grumble about their lack of success, convenenienly for them by, you know, overlooking their own inabilities. They then proceeded to pester the successful ones.
The successful ones at first were sympathetic and helpful....but ....found themselves having to suffer unwelcome and distracting invasions to their privacy and mindset.
This situation became progressively worse as with increasing insistence the unsuccessful ones tried to invalidate, damage and impair the successful ones and to try to convert them to their attitude, which was their reality and the opposite of the other group. What happened ?
The successful ones in order to get rid ot the nuisance, now pretend they are not successful and as a consequence, finally get peace and quiet to get on with their progress.
The successful ones now disconnect totally and make more and more progress while the others who have succeeded in totally corrupting themselves and anyone who will listen, fall behind fast and eventually fail.
They do not achieve satisfaction at the expense of the failure of the others, they achieve satisfaction at their own achievement which is something very diffferent to what you imply.
The same, I am bookmarking your post and will be expanding later when I have time.JumpOff said:I have a different view than this. I have met many a person that will never be able to trade successfully (not that they ever considered it mind you). The limiting factor has nothing to do with a willingness to work, but with an inability to adapt themselves to reality. Some folks are just so in love with their map that they are unable to reconcile it with the territory. The fact that the map says 'there should be a lake here' is more important than the fact that they are standing in front of a mountain.
JO
Yes you are right, there are many individuals who persist in following their own beliefs in the face of patent reality to the opposite. The curious thing is that some of these are very highly educated (or should I say miseducated ?) individuals who ought to know better. The "highly educated ones" or rather the ones who percieve themselves by virtue of having obtained a degree or some other irrelevant qualification (from the point of view of being a real trader and having to confront) are the ones on which the levelling effect of the market has often the greatest and bitterest impact. This is because their perceptions both of their environment and of themselves are totally incorrect.
My view is not philosophical, it is one of practical reality.new_trader said:Isn't this the long way of saying that 97% of day traders lose money? One is statistical the other is philosophical.
Incidentally, in conversation with a member via PMs who is a psychologist in the US and whose mission it is to help traders overcome their problems, the question of falilure rate arose.
He confided to me that a broker told him that the average newbie futures traders have a statistical probability of wiping their accounts clean within the first 6 months.
He is a pal of yours but because I respect PM confidentiality I cannot reveal his identity but have no reason at all to disbelieve him.
Yes, and the brutal truth.dbphoenix said:So some people are cut out for it and some people aren't.
Profound, Bertie. Profound.
I have only touched on the whole topic lightly, so far as an introductory preamble.
Later on I will be delving into the topic in more depth because I can see there is interest also in the idea of preserving professional advantage and not teaching it.
It is not as a direct result of teaching that that the giver of the knowledge is likely to impair his advantage, it is because people can not be trusted not to proliferate valuable and incisive knowledge.
It is therefore the risk of this proliferation existing that prevents the information being released at all to anyone, under any circumstances.
I will be expanding on this aspect of the discussion later as well, when I have some time.
Things are moving here and I have to put my full attention on what I am doing, so I will deal with your question later, I promise.new_trader said:Soc,
You are describing why so many people are likely to fail, I am interested in knowing what the % is. Do you think there is any correlation between success and IQ or EQ?
It is definitely intelligence, but it is not mainstream intelligence.
What I mean is that it is an uncommon kind of intelligence, intelligence of a very special kind.
This kind of intelligence is a natural attribute.
It is a brand of heightened common sense not everybody has.
Whereas very low levels of stupidity are commonplace and very high levels of intelligence are rare, rock bottom basic common sense itself, is not that common.
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