Ukraine invasion

[IlIlIlIlI]

Activities of five Kiev biolabs terminated during Russia’s special military operation

According to Chief of Russia’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection Troops Igor Kirillov, part of the pathogen collection was taken to the United States, while the remaining strains were urgently destroyed

tass.com

but if you want one in your garden

US views other countries as testing range for bioweapons — Russian Defense Ministry

Disregard for Ukrainian citizens is a good illustration of the US’ pragmatic approach to organizing military biological research, Chief of Russia’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection Troops Igor Kirillov pointed out

tass.com

 

[CavaliereVerde]

 

[Atilla]

Activities of five Kiev biolabs terminated during Russia’s special military operation

According to Chief of Russia’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection Troops Igor Kirillov, part of the pathogen collection was taken to the United States, while the remaining strains were urgently destroyed

tass.com

but if you want one in your garden

US views other countries as testing range for bioweapons — Russian Defense Ministry

Disregard for Ukrainian citizens is a good illustration of the US’ pragmatic approach to organizing military biological research, Chief of Russia’s Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection Troops Igor Kirillov pointed out

tass.com

Is there not a case here for Russia going in to rid Ukraine of US-financed WMD?

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Is there not a case here for Russia going in to rid Ukraine of US-financed WMD?

I also thought about this as there were also victims on the Russian territory

Russia Presents New a evidence from US-Funded Biolabs in Ukraine - Algora Blog

via RT Pentagon-backed facilities made “biological weapons components” and tried to cover it up, Russian military says Moscow believes that laboratories in Ukraine funded by the US military were making biological weapons components, but that local staff was being kept in the dark about their...

www.algora.com

 

[timsk]

You’re right, Tim, I haven’t read everything in the thread in detail. The thread is titled Ukraine Invasion and it’s that which I consider the overriding issue. Putin’s Russia is the invader, Ukraine the victim. Therefore in legal and moral terms Russia “bad” and even if you wouldn’t describe Ukraine as wholly “good” they are still the victims.

That is the central issue, the rest is so much flim flam.

Jon,
It used to be customary on here to at least make some attempt to understand the views of members one disagrees with before posting one's own thoughts about they've written. You know, a bit like bothering to read a book or watch a film before making judgement about the author or director. If someone posts something I instinctively disagree with and think is wrong, I try (but don't always succeed) to resist the urge to go in all guns a-blazin', make false assumptions about what they think and then suggest they must be "f…..g mad". In my experience, by doing that, I run the risk of making a fool of myself - all because I've not bothered to read, listen or watch what they've posted. So, if I can't be bothered to properly inform myself about someone else's p.o.v., I keep schtum and my thoughts to myself. As a general modus operandi, it's one I recommend wholeheartedly to one and all!

Returning if I may to the analogy about cowboys and Indians, the interesting thing about that is that the uninformed, binary view we had as children got turned on it's head when we became adults and well informed about what really happened to the indigenous peoples of North America. No, I'm absolutely NOT saying that Putin and Russia are good and that Zelensly and Ukraine are bad. Far from it. What I am saying is that it's waaaaay more complicated and nuanced than those on your side of the argument are willing to countenance. If you want to put your hands over your ears and scream "I'm not listening" - that's your prerogative. But keep in mind that it's the very reason why we're in this mess - not just in this thread - but worldwide.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

You are sinking into depths of desperation me amigo.

We have elephants to hunt and you are squatting mosquitos. 👏 👏

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I think there is too much conspiracy theories on biolabs and neonazis loosing focus on the real facts.

 

[Mumpsimus]

"The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights estimates that the total number of victims in the conflict in Donbas has exceeded 13,000. Among them are the elderly and children. These are terrible, irreparable losses." (Vladimir Putin)

I wonder why Western war advocates always ignore this fact.

As I recall, the UNCHR casualty figures referred to the total number i.e from both sides, though Russian losses (being unofficial) may not have been included. I'm not sure to whom you are referring as "Western war advocates"...perhaps you could elucidate.

 

[barjon]

Jon,
It used to be customary on here to at least make some attempt to understand the views of members one disagrees with before posting one's own thoughts about they've written. You know, a bit like bothering to read a book or watch a film before making judgement about the author or director. If someone posts something I instinctively disagree with and think is wrong, I try (but don't always succeed) to resist the urge to go in all guns a-blazin', make false assumptions about what they think and then suggest they must be "f…..g mad". In my experience, by doing that, I run the risk of making a fool of myself - all because I've not bothered to read, listen or watch what they've posted. So, if I can't be bothered to properly inform myself about someone else's p.o.v., I keep schtum and my thoughts to myself. As a general modus operandi, it's one I recommend wholeheartedly to one and all!

Returning if I may to the analogy about cowboys and Indians, the interesting thing about that is that the uninformed, binary view we had as children got turned on it's head when we became adults and well informed about what really happened to the indigenous peoples of North America. No, I'm absolutely NOT saying that Putin and Russia are good and that Zelensly and Ukraine are bad. Far from it. What I am saying is that it's waaaaay more complicated and nuanced than those on your side of the argument are willing to countenance. If you want to put your hands over your ears and scream "I'm not listening" - that's your prerogative. But keep in mind that it's the very reason why we're in this mess - not just in this thread - but worldwide.
Tim.

Yes, Tim, I fully admit to the fault. All I see from many of the posts is a downplay of Russia’s actions on the basis that it’s waaay more complicated. I don’t need to read stuff from a selection of sources, most of which I wouldn’t trust to tell me the time of day anyway.

The simple, uncomplicated fact of the matter is that Russia have invaded Ukraine and indulged in mass destruction and killing of innocents. There is simply no justification for that in this day and age, however complex the history and other issues may be.

So, I make no apology for “not listening” because there is nothing to listen to that alters that simple, uncomplicated fact.

 

[Atilla]

I think there is too much conspiracy theories on biolabs and neonazis loosing focus on the real facts.

Agreed.

Ukraine says no to NATO
Ukraine says no to Nuclear weapons
Russia agrees to Ukraine joining EU
Russia destroys Biolabs
Referendum for the people on disputed regions

Everybody happy.

 

[Atilla]

Yes, Tim, I fully admit to the fault. All I see from many of the posts is a downplay of Russia’s actions on the basis that it’s waaay more complicated. I don’t need to read stuff from a selection of sources, most of which I wouldn’t trust to tell me the time of day anyway.

The simple, uncomplicated fact of the matter is that Russia have invaded Ukraine and indulged in mass destruction and killing of innocents. There is simply no justification for that in this day and age, however complex the history and other issues may be.

So, I make no apology for “not listening” because there is nothing to listen to that alters that simple, uncomplicated fact.

I don't recall you showing such grief for the loss of life when Blair went into Iraq to rid it of WMD Mr B.

You justified his actions in all sorts of wonderful and glorious ways. You'd give the man a medal I'm sure.

Who remembers Fallujah "Operation Valiant" to find those responsible for the March 31st ambush and killing of 4 American military contractors?

How about the systematic arrest and torture of 000s of civilians for information on insurgents? Little 6 year olds traumatised peeing in their pjamas with their mothers pleading and begging the US marines. Their fathers were hooded handcuffed and shouted out whilst US marines stole what money or wealth the family had from their homes.

Some of them never came back.

Some of them ended up in some other jurisdiction outside of Geneva conventions most convenient for US authorities for their CIA operatives to try out new experimental torture techniques.

I see hypocrisy and double standards.

Soooo sooooo sad.


Top it all off no WMD.

The rotting stench of lies is unbearable.

 

[barjon]

Agreed.

Ukraine says no to NATO
Ukraine says no to Nuclear weapons
Russia agrees to Ukraine joining EU
Russia destroys Biolabs
Referendum for the people on disputed regions

Everybody happy.

better draft you into the talks immediately!

 

[barjon]

I don't recall you showing such grief for the loss of life when Blair went into Iraq to rid it of WMD Mr B.

You justified his actions in all sorts of wonderful and glorious ways. You'd give the man a medal I'm sure.

Who remembers Fallujah "Operation Valiant" to find those responsible for the March 31st ambush and killing of 4 American military contractors?

How about the systematic arrest and torture of 000s of civilians for information on insurgents? Little 6 year olds traumatised peeing in their pjamas with their mothers pleading and begging the US marines. Their fathers were hooded handcuffed and shouted out whilst US marines stole what money or wealth the family had from their homes.

Some of them never came back.

Some of them ended up in some other jurisdiction outside of Geneva conventions most convenient for US authorities for their CIA operatives to try out new experimental torture techniques.

I see hypocrisy and double standards.

Soooo sooooo sad.


Top it all off no WMD.

The rotting stench of lies is unbearable.

Er, I don’t think you’ll find that I ever expressed any support for that war. I merely argued that it wasn’t about WMD, but to stop and send a signal about state sponsored terrorism following 9/11 (which it did).

Civilisation doesn’t seem to have moved on much in that last few hundred years, more’s the pity. You would have thought, by now, that war would have been consigned to the history books. Some hope!

 

[timsk]

. . . So, I make no apology for “not listening” because there is nothing to listen to that alters that simple, uncomplicated fact.

And that's precisely the problem and why we are we we are, Jon. I'm sorry to say it, but your attitude and lack of willingness to even listen to - let alone engage with - views that differ to yours is precisely why Putin has waged war against Ukraine. So, please tell me that at least you're consistent in your views and that you took the same stance when Blair invaded Iraq or the past 8 years that the Saudis have been blitzing the Yemen with British made armaments? You condemned both of those with the same conviction that you condemn Putin I assume? Needless to say, there are any number of other examples, most of which aren't anything like as complex or as nuanced as this conflict.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

And that's precisely the problem and why we are we we are, Jon. I'm sorry to say it, but your attitude and lack of willingness to even listen to - let alone engage with - views that differ to yours is precisely why Putin has waged war against Ukraine. So, please tell me that at least you're consistent in your views and that you took the same stance when Blair invaded Iraq or the past 8 years that the Saudis have been blitzing the Yemen with British made armaments? You condemned both of those with the same conviction that you condemn Putin I assume? Needless to say, there are any number of other examples, most of which aren't anything like as complex or as nuanced as this conflict.
Tim.

Trouble is, Tim, you are wanting me to engage in something that is next to nothing compared to the overriding, simple and uncomplicated fact of Russian invasion.

It’s like wanting to spend your time debating the psychological reasoning of a psychopath whilst he is busy murdering his victim.

 

[timsk]

Trouble is, Tim, you are wanting me to engage in something that is next to nothing compared to the overriding, simple and uncomplicated fact of Russian invasion.

Trouble is, Jon, you are not wanting to address the point, namely the overriding, simple and uncomplicated fact of the U.S./U.K. invasion of Iraq or the Saudis bombing of Yemen with British made weapons. Do you condemn those with the same vitriol you reserve for Putin or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.

It’s like wanting to spend your time debating the psychological reasoning of a psychopath whilst he is busy murdering his victim.

So, am I to conclude that you think Putin is a psychopath? Genuine question. I don't know; he may be but, as far as I'm concerned, that just puts him in the same boat as most other western leaders, our own BoJo included. Let's assume he is a complete psychopath: then surely his adversaries and critics would be well advised to redouble their efforts to try and understand what his motivations and objectives are? (For the record, that's where I'm at.) As it is, all I hear - either here on this thread or on MSM - are people projecting onto him what they think. This is as childish as it is futile. Shouting from the rooftops that Putin is a murderous nut-job will do nothing other than pour fuel onto the fire. It's a stupefyingly stupid thing to do. If this conflict goes nuclear, it'll be as much our (collective) fault as it will be Putin's.

As things stand, the west profits from this war on numerous levels (for reasons I've detailed earlier in this thread), so our leaders are not thinking about how to end it but, conversely, how to prolong it without it getting out of hand. That's incredibly dangerous as it's gambling with all our lives. It's morally reprehensible and, in my book, makes them (almost) as responsible for the outcome as it does Putin.
Tim.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Russian Defense Ministry names those who worked on bioweapons in Ukraine

The chief of Russia’s radiation, chemical and biological protection force, Igor Kirillov, told a news briefing that one of the key figures was Robert Pope, the Director of the US Defense Department's Cooperative Threat Reduction Program at the Defense Threat Reduction Agency

tass.com

U.S. Defense Threat Reduction Office Partners with Ukrainian Government to Keep Our Nations Safe

Joanna Wintrol, the head of U.S. Embassy Kyiv’s Defense Threat Reduction Office, works closely with Ukrainian partners to counter threats affecting the United States, Ukraine, and other nations. As…

medium.com

International probe into US-led biolabs in Ukraine needed, says former UN weapons inspector

A former United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq has stressed that it is necessary to investigate t

www.shine.cn

Are you trapped? Others are also ...

Fact check: False claim of US biolabs in Ukraine tied to Russian disinformation campaign

The Security Service of Ukraine\u00a0and the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine said the claim is false.

eu.usatoday.com

If Biolab Documents are Fake Then Ask Head of the DTRA Office at the US Embassy in Kiev Joanna Wintrol Why She Signed Off on Them? | WDC NEWS 6

The Russian Protection Division offered paperwork allegedly from the US Protection Risk Discount Workplace in Kyiv On Friday, March 18, the Russian Everlasting Consultant at to the US Safety Council…

wdcnews6.com

Pentagon Biolab in Ukraine Exposed Performing Biological Experiments on Local Soldiers

Leaked internal documents have surfaced proving the Pentagon has been running top-secret biolabs in Ukraine and performing biological experiments on

www.planet-today.com

 

[barjon]

Trouble is, Jon, you are not wanting to address the point, namely the overriding, simple and uncomplicated fact of the U.S./U.K. invasion of Iraq or the Saudis bombing of Yemen with British made weapons. Do you condemn those with the same vitriol you reserve for Putin or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.

So, am I to conclude that you think Putin is a psychopath? Genuine question. I don't know; he may be but, as far as I'm concerned, that just puts him in the same boat as most other western leaders, our own BoJo included. Let's assume he is a complete psychopath: then surely his adversaries and critics would be well advised to redouble their efforts to try and understand what his motivations and objectives are? (For the record, that's where I'm at.) As it is, all I hear - either here on this thread or on MSM - are people projecting onto him what they think. This is as childish as it is futile. Shouting from the rooftops that Putin is a murderous nut-job will do nothing other than pour fuel onto the fire. It's a stupefyingly stupid thing to do. If this conflict goes nuclear, it'll be as much our (collective) fault as it will be Putin's.

As things stand, the west profits from this war on numerous levels (for reasons I've detailed earlier in this thread), so our leaders are not thinking about how to end it but, conversely, how to prolong it without it getting out of hand. That's incredibly dangerous as it's gambling with all our lives. It's morally reprehensible and, in my book, makes them (almost) as responsible for the outcome as it does Putin.
Tim.

Yes, I already did in reply to At. I don’t see where vitriol comes in. I just see the invasion as THE issue.

No idea about Putin, he’s certainly a clever bugger, having rescued autocracy from the jaws of democracy. In my psychopath analogy one would just rush in a bash him on the head to stop him. Unfortunately Putin (psychopath or not) has a bigger club than us so that would be a somewhat risky route to say the least.

Sanctions are self-damaging, but less so than having our cities blown up. The best that can be done is to supply the Ukrainians with the wherewithal to resist whilst we sit on the sidelines wringing our hands. At least there is talking and something along the lines outlined by Atilla above might be feasible although I don’t hold my breath.

It’s interesting that there seems a concerted effort here and in US to say that Putin has miscalculated because he is being misinformed by advisors/officials/military who are too scared to give him the true facts. Interesting because that gives him a face saver should he need one if inclined to change course, whether or not it’s correct.

I certainly don’t agree with you that our leaders are trying to prolong the war.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

As I recall, the UNCHR casualty figures referred to the total number i.e from both sides, though Russian losses (being unofficial) may not have been included. I'm not sure to whom you are referring as "Western war advocates"...perhaps you could elucidate.

Just an example from 2017 .. only 100 reports are accessible easily. Google restricts the access.

Latest from the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM), based on information received as of 19:30, 16 October 2017

This report is for the media and the general public. The SMM recorded fewer ceasefire violations in Donetsk region and more in Luhansk region compared with the previous 24-hours.

www.osce.org

It's a result of Minsk II.
Did you find anything in MSM about these reports? Any comment in the MSM before?

Western war advocates - ask yourself. Just for yourelf.

Do you want to win this war?
You? You are involved?
Do you want Ukraine to win this war?
Which war?
Talking only about invasion can hide the mostly ignored war lasting since 8 years?
What do you think is the result of delivering weapons to Ukraine? End of war? Winning the war? (go back to question 2, please)
What is the legal base to deliver weapons to Ukraine? Past NATO maneuvers in Ukraine while they are not a member?

You have immediately answers for all questions? Fine, then you have more than I do.