Ukraine invasion

[CavaliereVerde]

Are we discussing about US hypocrisy or Ukraine invasion?
Whataboutism on steroids.

What democracy has to do with WMD?
Are nukes WMD? I think yes but this does not prevent UK and France to be democracies.

Ehemmm... alongside payrolling, the arming and training of Nazi parties as well.

Again with this nazi BS ... 🙄
Even if we consider Azov battalion nazi it is 1% of Ukranian army.
Even if we consider far right party to be nazi it is no more than 2% with no seats in parliament.

Aaaannnnddddd Russia is the aggressor here. 😱

We have more than 100k soldiers and 1000 tanks entering a country, we can call it "special operation", I call it invasion.

 

[timsk]

Again with this nazi BS ... 🙄
Even if we consider Azov battalion nazi it is 1% of Ukranian army.
Even if we consider far right party to be nazi it is no more than 2% with no seats in parliament.

Hi CV,
As you appear to be having difficulty in digesting this very important issue, may I suggest you watch the video linked below which addresses the points you make. At least you'll understand why many view it as important - even if you choose to dismiss it. The BBC presenter that the 'Lotus Eaters' presenters are talking about is Ros Atkins. Enjoy . . .

 

[barjon]

Just hang on a goddamn minute here. Are you suggesting that there is justification for the Russian invasion, mass destruction and killing of innocent civilians? You must be f…..g mad if you do. As Putin wrote years ago, he thinks Ukraine is part of Russia and he wants it back whatever the bloodshed. That’s it in a nutshell.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

As Putin wrote years ago, he thinks Ukraine is part of Russia

Please deliver a reliable source for that

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Please deliver a relyable source for that

Putin's new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions

Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a controversial new essay that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Here you can find a review and a link to the original article by Putin.

 

[barjon]

Please deliver a relyable source for that

Yes, when it all started William Hague wrote an article in the Times saying that we shouldn’t be surprised because Putin had announced his intentions years ago (Hague was more definitive) including his use of force and acceptance of much bloodshed. I seem to recall he said it was a written thing by Putin.

You’ll have to ask William Hague about the precise details, I am quite happy to trust what he says.

oh, cv has posted something above - I guess that is what Hague was talking about.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

A very good video explaining Putin's vision on Russia and Ukraine

 

[Atilla]

Are we discussing about US hypocrisy or Ukraine invasion?
Whataboutism on steroids.

What democracy has to do with WMD?
Are nukes WMD? I think yes but this does not prevent UK and France to be democracies.


Again with this nazi BS ... 🙄
Even if we consider Azov battalion nazi it is 1% of Ukranian army.
Even if we consider far right party to be nazi it is no more than 2% with no seats in parliament.


We have more than 100k soldiers and 1000 tanks entering a country, we can call it "special operation", I call it invasion.

Beg to differ. Given the Azov battalion's success and training, it is clear to me a smaller special operation to comply with your perspective, clearly have been inadequate to meet the desired objectives.

This clearly is not an invasion or a kill and destroy operation. To most analysts Russians have placed their own soldiers at risk, going in gently than to violate Ukraine by using more excessive deadly force. Fallujah comes to mind but let's not be picky about what constitutes excessive force for the killing of 4 American contractors.

Do we need to mention torturing of innocent civilians by the CIA to extract information on insurgents? That's poor. How about information on laboratories producing WMD.

1. The primary objective is NATO deterrent and this is agreed by Zelensky and his team as I understand it.
2. Referendum's for the breakaway regions, sounds like a reasonable good idea.
3. The other stuff not worth mentioning... Ukraine witholding pensions to those who don't support the government. That's original.

Wrt Nazi's there seems to be dispute whether the numbers are 1-2% or 10-20%. Eitherway, I'd hazard a guess that the real numbers are larger than the stated ones as some will be closet Nazi's. Funny how the White House only labelled the Nazi's a terror group after Trump/WhiteHouse raid fiasco. They obviously didn't get the telegram on where they were supposed to use their military training.


There is no smoke without fire. You can down play it as much as you like. Ukraine is on fire. Who set that tinder alight is the question to ask?

Clear evidence US perpertrated these actions. Ukraine citizens and European ones paying price. So so very sad.

 

[timsk]

Just hang on a goddamn minute here. Are you suggesting that there is justification for the Russian invasion, mass destruction and killing of innocent civilians? You must be f…..g mad if you do. As Putin wrote years ago, he thinks Ukraine is part of Russia and he wants it back whatever the bloodshed. That’s it in a nutshell.

Jon',
What I'm suggesting is what I, At' and histo' et al have been saying from the start, namely that the Nazi 'issue' is very much an issue, as much as the C_Vs (and you?) may wish that it wasn't. Plenty of evidence to support this, including links to Gabriel Gatehouse's documentary for BBC's Newsnight program that I posted earlier in the thread. Please read the thread from the start.

As for being "f…..g mad" - you ought to know me well enough by now to have made up your mind about that long ago.
😉
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Just hang on a goddamn minute here. Are you suggesting that there is justification for the Russian invasion, mass destruction and killing of innocent civilians? You must be f…..g mad if you do. As Putin wrote years ago, he thinks Ukraine is part of Russia and he wants it back whatever the bloodshed. That’s it in a nutshell.

I didn't know this either but some friends informed - technically speaking, borders of Ukraine have never been ratified.

State Border of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CavaliereVerde]

going in gently than to violate Ukraine by using more excessive deadly force.

Again with this stuff...
Carpet bombing Mariupol and Kharkiv is "going gently"?

They are not holding firepower, Russian firepower is just 10% of what western countries thought.

 

[barjon]

"…….This clearly is not an invasion or a kill and destroy operation.……..

Jeepers, Atilla, what planet are you living on. Try telling that to the thousands of homeless Ukrainians and the thousands who have lost family members killed - civilians at that.

It’s totally beyond me how anyone can seek to deflect the finger of blame away from where it points - Putin and Russia, full stop.

 

[barjon]

Jon',
What I'm suggesting is what I, At' and histo' et al have been saying from the start, namely that the Nazi 'issue' is very much an issue, as much as the C_Vs (and you?) may wish that it wasn't. Plenty of evidence to support this, including links to Gabriel Gatehouse's documentary for BBC's Newsnight program that I posted earlier in the thread. Please read the thread from the start.

As for being "f…..g mad" - you ought to know me well enough by now to have made up your mind about that long ago.
😉
Tim.

Tim,

I actually couldn’t give a toss as whether or not there is a Nazi issue. It’s just a feeble excuse for a wholly unjustified invasion, together with mass destruction and killing of civilians. Next you’ll be telling me it’d be ok for Putin to invade us to rid us of our Nazi problem in the BNP.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Putin's new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions

Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a controversial new essay that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Here you can find a review and a link to the original article by Putin.

Thanks for the link.
The link in the article is censored or broken, here are two working links to what Putin wrote:

The Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people

moderndiplomacy.eu

Article by Russian President Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ | Russian Mission

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous...

russiaeu.ru

Maybe you should not read only reviews and opinions, but try to read the original articles to make your own opinion from what's written more than from what others made out of it.

Putins essay ends with these words:
"Today, these words may be perceived by some people with hostility. They can be interpreted in many possible ways. Yet, many people will hear me. And I will say one thing – Russia has never been and will never be ”anti-Ukraine“. And what Ukraine will be – it is up to its citizens to decide."

So I wonder where your reviewers find "imperial ambitions"in the text as written in the headline, I see more that an independ Ukraine would not like to continue being the chain dog of the U.S..

 

[timsk]

Tim,

I actually couldn’t give a toss as whether or not there is a Nazi issue. It’s just a feeble excuse for a wholly unjustified invasion, together with mass destruction and killing of civilians. Next you’ll be telling me it’d be ok for Putin to invade us to rid us of our Nazi problem in the BNP.

Jon,
With regard to contributions to this thread, no one - as far as I'm aware - is defending Putin. No one - as far as I'm aware - thinks Putin is right to attack Ukraine. No one - as far as I'm aware - thinks Putin should do anything other than call an immediate ceasefire and withdraw all of his troops. I subscribe 100% to all of the above, as I've made clear repeatedly from the start of the thread - as you would know if you'd read it before wading in all guns blazing.

Having said the above, anyone who thinks this is a simple case of Putin bad - Zelensky good - simply doesn't understand the complex back story and the events that have lead us to where we are today. The Nazis and the Dombas region are just one piece of the jigsaw. The conflict could have been avoided if the west had listened to the likes of Prof. John Mearsheimer and many others who have been warning the west about the possibility of something like this happening for many years. Adopting the playground attitude of cowboys good - Indians bad is ridiculously simplistic and to some extent is why we're in this mess. And, certainly, if offers no solution for getting us out of it.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Well you highlighted it - it is up to its citizens to decide. And I suppose the invasion, mass destruction and killing of innocent civilians is Ukrainians deciding is it?

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Well you highlighted it - it is up to its citizens to decide. And I suppose the invasion, mass destruction and killing of innocent civilians is Ukrainians deciding is it?

"The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights estimates that the total number of victims in the conflict in Donbas has exceeded 13,000. Among them are the elderly and children. These are terrible, irreparable losses." (Vladimir Putin)

I wonder why Western war advocates always ignore this fact.

 

[barjon]

Jon,
With regard to contributions to this thread, no one - as far as I'm aware - is defending Putin. No one - as far as I'm aware - thinks Putin is right to attack Ukraine. No one - as far as I'm aware - thinks Putin should do anything other than call an immediate ceasefire and withdraw all of his troops. I subscribe 100% to all of the above, as I've made clear repeatedly from the start of the thread - as you would know if you'd read it before wading in all guns blazing.

Having said the above, anyone who thinks this is a simple case of Putin bad - Zelensky good - simply doesn't understand the complex back story and the events that have lead us to where we are today. The Nazis and the Dombas region are just one piece of the jigsaw. The conflict could have been avoided if the west had listened to the likes of Prof. John Mearsheimer and many others who have been warning the west about the possibility of something like this happening for many years. Adopting the playground attitude of cowboys good - Indians bad is ridiculously simplistic and to some extent is why we're in this mess. And, certainly, if offers no solution for getting us out of it.
Tim.

You’re right, Tim, I haven’t read everything in the thread in detail. The thread is titled Ukraine Invasion and it’s that which I consider the overriding issue. Putin’s Russia is the invader, Ukraine the victim. Therefore in legal and moral terms Russia “bad” and even if you wouldn’t describe Ukraine as wholly “good” they are still the victims.

That is the central issue, the rest is so much flim flam.

 

[Rufus_Leakey]

[Who are the losers of this war?

Here's one according to the UK Military Chief.

And some more.

Will history repeat itself with something like Order No. 227?

 

[barjon]

"The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights estimates that the total number of victims in the conflict in Donbas has exceeded 13,000. Among them are the elderly and children. These are terrible, irreparable losses." (Vladimir Putin)

I wonder why Western war advocates always ignore this fact.

yes, horrible and the total casualties from both sides and civilians. Shouldn’t be ignored, of course, but it’s part of an internal struggle, not an invasion of one country upon another.