Ukraine invasion

[Atilla]

Just comparing google hits.

It's like an image thang... Just taking the first few pics.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

By the way we are comparing western leaders and their lack of competence and charisma with a brutal dictator.
Biden defined Putin an assassin months before this invasion.
There is a difference between corrupt politicians (nobody is 100% honest) and war criminals.

 

[Atilla]

By the way we are comparing western leaders and their lack of competence and charisma with a brutal dictator.
Biden defined Putin an assassin months before this invasion.
There is a difference between corrupt politicians (nobody is 100% honest) and war criminals.

As your other twin CV pointed out they are much the same. I reckon Borris is probably considerably worse than everyone else.

Look at his track record. He lies, deceives and tries to get away with whatever he can even when it is wrong. He bonks at taxpayers expense giving contracts to get his willy wet. Divorces wife and marries secretary. Lies to have decorations done by others doing him favours. Gets found out and attempts to scare our civil servants by threatening to replace them. Fails and then tries to change the independent body investigating standards in an effort to fill spots with yes corrupt men.

Literally billions in contracts fast-tracked to friends without any attention to Governments tendering process G-Cloud framework. The reason given is covid fiasco can't be delayed. Despite all that fast-tracking UK numbers are some of the highest in the globle. ~Fat lot of benefits that achieved.

In a nutshell, our cronies in the cabinet would only dream of being in Putin's shoes and would actively change our system to be like Russias. Simply that there is a few more people prepared to stand out and say Oi YOU. STOP!

How about the bleeding building developer program that all our MPs belong to. Heseltine being the leader of the pack they are all bloody property developer tycoons. I can't remember who but one MP bought and sold 6 properties all developed at taxpayers funds because it was his 2nd property and permitted under parliamentary rules. That's some juicy benefit that is.

Generous MP expenses were brought in by the famous freaky iron lady. Didn't want to compete with Arthur Scargill's 33% demand for wage increase so introduced the MP benefit and expenses scheme to top up pay. Made being an MP a career choice.

They are all bent and have a big ENVY to be like Putin and Sauidi kings.


The hypocrisy of it all. The Owen Patterson case really gets my back up. Bringing parliament into disrepute.

Then we have our Lords on claiming expenses and allowances no questions asked. These are often already very rich and endowed peeps in service of the crown. Makes King's favours look cheap.

Despite it all, that Boris fooker is still in charge and commended by peeps here as someone we should watch and listen to. LOL.

Let's talk about Putin and Russia and gloat how much mightier we are shall we not?

 

[CavaliereVerde]

So would you prefer to live in Russia than in UK ?
Everyone is used to complain about his leaders but we are FREE, we are not arrested when we criticize our leaders.

 

[Atilla]

UK of course no doubt about it. I'm not a fan of Russia or Putin.

However, I'm also not a fan of US or uncle Sam either.

If I were Zelensky I wouldn't justify the death of any citizen fighting US and Russia's proxy wars. Be considerate and appease all my neighbours and help them.

I love England and one of the best places in the world is Brighton and SE England imho ♥️💓

 

[CavaliereVerde]

However, I'm also not a fan of US or uncle Sam either.

Neither me.
I would never move to US and neither to UK
BTW I agree Brighton is a good place.
Having said that being defended by US is much better than being defended by Russia.

 

[Atilla]

Neither me.

Having said that being defended by US is much better than being defended by Russia.

What if the US is secretly feeding your enemies to get the chance to befriend you and sell weapons so you can fight them off?

You think the US is defending you but it has no interest in doing so. It is simply feasting on your potential demise.

 

[counter_violent]

UK of course no doubt about it. I'm not a fan of Russia or Putin.

However, I'm also not a fan of US or uncle Sam either.

If I were Zelensky I wouldn't justify the death of any citizen fighting US and Russia's proxy wars. Be considerate and appease all my neighbours and help them.

I've no idea what this means. Somebody help me out.

The Ukrainian people have decided that they will not appease Putin. So what does this have to do with the US?

 

[timsk]

C_Vs,
As a matter of interest, would I be right in thinking that you've both had three or more doses of the vaccine?

 

[counter_violent]

Put me in the bottom group.

 

[Atilla]

I've no idea what this means. Somebody help me out.

The Ukrainian people have decided that they will not appease Putin. So what does this have to do with the US?

Well I wouldn't have signed this knowing full well the cold shower it was going to give my neighbour.

Ukraine President Signs Constitutional Amendment On NATO, EU Membership

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union.

www.rferl.org

This is about as bloody minded as one can get.

You are hard work CV.

 

[counter_violent]

Well I wouldn't have signed this knowing full well the cold shower it was going to give my neighbour.

Ukraine President Signs Constitutional Amendment On NATO, EU Membership

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union.

www.rferl.org

This is about as bloody minded as one can get.

You are hard work CV.

Oh, I see, we are back to this imaginary Russian sphere of influence nonsense again.

The world has moved on. Soviet union is dead. Yeltsin made a huge mistake entrusting Russia to Putin. It's been downhill for them ever since.

 

[timsk]

The West Should Not Pressure Ukraine to Negotiate With Putin​

The article itself isn't up to much, IMO, but this btl post from 'Mark' is right on the money:

“Sadly, Putin doesn’t see that clear bright line, and I think he probably spends a lot of time brooding over how he was outplayed in 2014 in a rather dirty game of which he considers himself a practised expert, and in which he unaccountably feels cheated – showing a lack of self-awareness. Clearly he’s been allowing anger and bitterness to cloud his judgement, when emotional self-control is another thing he prides himself on. His state of mind must have further deteriorated on discovering even his prized FSB helped get him into a terrible pickle by just telling him what he wanted to hear about the Ukrainian people’s views of Russia. And while there’s been much talk of a recent psychological collapse, I think his state of mind is reflective more of a slow and progressive decline that began in 2003 with the ‘colour revolutions’. One can only hope that the people around him will see what a perilous game he’s playing, and that he’s not going to get any better at playing it.“

What’s sad is that you seem completely unaware of the degree to which these frankly silly speculations about the enemy leader’s rationality are the result of direct propaganda manipulation, just as the fear so many felt of covid was the result of similar manipulation.

I’ve been watching US sphere wars for many decades, and I cannot recall a war in the past three decades in which the enemy leader du jour was not viewed in exactly this way – pathologised as “unstable”, “mad”, “megalomaniac” etc, usually based upon pure speculation together with outright dishonest misrepresentations of the context and of their supposed objectives.

As a general rule it’s safest to assume that a powerful and successful leader is sane, however much you might dislike his actions. (One of the few exceptions would be where they exhibit clear symptoms of actual senility, as with Biden and Pelosi recently – but these are figureheads rather than leaders anyway.)

In this case, it’s pretty clear that the Russians have never intended to militarily occupy the Ukraine. The force levels they went in with were completely inadequate for the job, and while it also appears they misread the response of the Ukrainians, there’s no way they would have gone in without a backup plan for that eventuality. Their objectives appear to be to secure the separatist regions, and halt the murderous artillery barrages that were a daily feature of life for civilians in those areas, to remove the power of the ultranationalist fanatics (“denazification”), exclude NATO influence and impose a neutral Ukraine, and to remove the growing military threat of Ukrainian forces, one way or the other.

To achieve those goals they don’t need to occupy the whole of the Ukraine, they just need to achieve military victories over the armed forces of the Ukraine and systematically wipe out concentrations of nationalist extremists, until a Ukraine ruler eventually comes to terms with them. The outcome for the Ukraine will be worse, the longer they put off coming to terms. But better, of course, for the US elites seeking to use them to harm Russia.

There’s nothing “irrational” about any of this. We know the US and its puppets were not interested in negotiation and were proceeding to train and arm Ukrainian forces in the ongoing de facto NATO-isation of the country, for as long as they were allowed to get away with it. The situation, and the cost of eventually taking action, was only going to get worse for Russia, never better, with delay. Putin said he considered a more limited operation to just push the Ukrainian killers back from the separatist regions, but rejected that because it would merely recreate the same situation further west.

Putin chose to grasp the nettle now, knowing that delay was going to make it sting harder. That’s a legitimate and rational course of action for a national leader in his position to take, and the only question is can Russia prevail against the forces deployed against it by the world’s most powerful superpower and its satellites, or not? The only issue for the Ukraine is how heavy a price it pays for serving the purposes of the US elites.

 

[tomorton]

The West Should Not Pressure Ukraine to Negotiate With Putin​

The article itself isn't up to much, IMO, but this btl post from 'Mark' is right on the money:

“Sadly, Putin doesn’t see that clear bright line, and I think he probably spends a lot of time brooding over how he was outplayed in 2014 in a rather dirty game of which he considers himself a practised expert, and in which he unaccountably feels cheated – showing a lack of self-awareness. Clearly he’s been allowing anger and bitterness to cloud his judgement, when emotional self-control is another thing he prides himself on. His state of mind must have further deteriorated on discovering even his prized FSB helped get him into a terrible pickle by just telling him what he wanted to hear about the Ukrainian people’s views of Russia. And while there’s been much talk of a recent psychological collapse, I think his state of mind is reflective more of a slow and progressive decline that began in 2003 with the ‘colour revolutions’. One can only hope that the people around him will see what a perilous game he’s playing, and that he’s not going to get any better at playing it.“

What’s sad is that you seem completely unaware of the degree to which these frankly silly speculations about the enemy leader’s rationality are the result of direct propaganda manipulation, just as the fear so many felt of covid was the result of similar manipulation.

I’ve been watching US sphere wars for many decades, and I cannot recall a war in the past three decades in which the enemy leader du jour was not viewed in exactly this way – pathologised as “unstable”, “mad”, “megalomaniac” etc, usually based upon pure speculation together with outright dishonest misrepresentations of the context and of their supposed objectives.

As a general rule it’s safest to assume that a powerful and successful leader is sane, however much you might dislike his actions. (One of the few exceptions would be where they exhibit clear symptoms of actual senility, as with Biden and Pelosi recently – but these are figureheads rather than leaders anyway.)

In this case, it’s pretty clear that the Russians have never intended to militarily occupy the Ukraine. The force levels they went in with were completely inadequate for the job, and while it also appears they misread the response of the Ukrainians, there’s no way they would have gone in without a backup plan for that eventuality. Their objectives appear to be to secure the separatist regions, and halt the murderous artillery barrages that were a daily feature of life for civilians in those areas, to remove the power of the ultranationalist fanatics (“denazification”), exclude NATO influence and impose a neutral Ukraine, and to remove the growing military threat of Ukrainian forces, one way or the other.

To achieve those goals they don’t need to occupy the whole of the Ukraine, they just need to achieve military victories over the armed forces of the Ukraine and systematically wipe out concentrations of nationalist extremists, until a Ukraine ruler eventually comes to terms with them. The outcome for the Ukraine will be worse, the longer they put off coming to terms. But better, of course, for the US elites seeking to use them to harm Russia.

There’s nothing “irrational” about any of this. We know the US and its puppets were not interested in negotiation and were proceeding to train and arm Ukrainian forces in the ongoing de facto NATO-isation of the country, for as long as they were allowed to get away with it. The situation, and the cost of eventually taking action, was only going to get worse for Russia, never better, with delay. Putin said he considered a more limited operation to just push the Ukrainian killers back from the separatist regions, but rejected that because it would merely recreate the same situation further west.

Putin chose to grasp the nettle now, knowing that delay was going to make it sting harder. That’s a legitimate and rational course of action for a national leader in his position to take, and the only question is can Russia prevail against the forces deployed against it by the world’s most powerful superpower and its satellites, or not? The only issue for the Ukraine is how heavy a price it pays for serving the purposes of the US elites.

Ukraine have played a dangerous bluff by building up their armed forces and disarming their nuclear deterrent. These were clear preparatory steps to NATO membership. NATO membership demands a 2% expenditure on defence and even if current members mostly do not pay this it would be obligatory for an applying member. And why would Ukraine need to pay for its own nuclear deterrent when they could call on NATO's collective deterrent?

Ukraine have lost this game of brinkmanship and are going to have to abandon their eastern border-lands and the Crimea. Possibly also NATO membership. Again.

All they have done has made Russian pre-emptive military action more probable. The writing was on the wall when Russia took the Donbas and the Crimea but still Ukraine and NATO played on. The end-game for future peace in eastern Europe now involves Ukraine giving up some territory and getting more diplomatic with Russia. Both Ukraine and Russia will come out of this with damaged economies, unhappy populations and depleted military resources.

NATO comes out on top. So I'm happy about that.

 

[Atilla]

In this case, it’s pretty clear that the Russians have never intended to militarily occupy the Ukraine. The force levels they went in with were completely inadequate for the job, and while it also appears they misread the response of the Ukrainians, there’s no way they would have gone in without a backup plan for that eventuality. Their objectives appear to be to secure the separatist regions, and halt the murderous artillery barrages that were a daily feature of life for civilians in those areas, to remove the power of the ultranationalist fanatics (“denazification”), exclude NATO influence and impose a neutral Ukraine, and to remove the growing military threat of Ukrainian forces, one way or the other.

This is on the nail imo and what has been outlined by Russia and along with other reasonable international commentators.

With respect to comparing Putin against Biden and Boris there really is no comparison on who is the more able bodied thinking stateman at all.

Everyone nevertheless has their own pov and what a marvellous and colourful world that makes. Diversity is the fruit of life.

All this tribal pooh is really not worth the suffering and loss of life at all imo. Hoping peace transpires and free safe movement of people to live and carry out their work ensues soon enough.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

@timsk
Thanx for transcribing what Russia is transmitting on RT.

What's you interpretation of Georgia and russian puppet states of Abcasia and South Ossetia?

 

[Atilla]

I've no idea what this means. Somebody help me out.

The Ukrainian people have decided that they will not appease Putin. So what does this have to do with the US?

I'm getting a touch of Deja Vous here.

NATO!

 

[Atilla]

@timsk
Thanx for transcribing what Russia is transmitting on RT.

What's you interpretation of Georgia and russian puppet states of Abcasia and South Ossetia?

Exceptional places of outstanding natural beauty.

 

[Atilla]

Ukraine have played a dangerous bluff by building up their armed forces and disarming their nuclear deterrent. These were clear preparatory steps to NATO membership. NATO membership demands a 2% expenditure on defence and even if current members mostly do not pay this it would be obligatory for an applying member. And why would Ukraine need to pay for its own nuclear deterrent when they could call on NATO's collective deterrent?

Ukraine have lost this game of brinkmanship and are going to have to abandon their eastern border-lands and the Crimea. Possibly also NATO membership. Again.

All they have done has made Russian pre-emptive military action more probable. The writing was on the wall when Russia took the Donbas and the Crimea but still Ukraine and NATO played on. The end-game for future peace in eastern Europe now involves Ukraine giving up some territory and getting more diplomatic with Russia. Both Ukraine and Russia will come out of this with damaged economies, unhappy populations and depleted military resources.

NATO comes out on top. So I'm happy about that.

What you say is more realistic than anything else spouted here before imo.

Rise in energy and commodity prices will only benefit Russia and harm EU. I see a more balancing act and word of caution for other countries thinking of NATO membership. Germany and Holland have already stated they can not be weaned off Russian energy soon but will try making lots of noises in line.

I see US increasing expenditure on defence but that will only cause it to divert investment from her people who need it to that of killing other nations people in the very capitalistic interest of the few. I'd say the same for EU countries. Spending money on the military is just a waste of resources. Spending on public matters far better. I can't see Germany being invaded as it doesn't pose a risk to any neighbours. However, I do see it as a very attractive country to do business in.

Ukraine will be in a better place too knowing or perhaps understanding the terms of engagement with her regions and partners. If regions can't live together in peace then it's better to be separated until they can grow to love one another again - usually over trade and making money in mutual interest.

Ukraine has lost yes and I would ask what led it to this point in time? They are talking about a referendum now. Why not before would be a wise question to ask? Any seasoned diplomat would know the forces at work and key strategic interest it has in the region. They should be used for the benefit of all her populace and groups. Not just the ones who are in power.

NATO doesn't come out on top imo. NATO stands where it is as before. It has been checked for now.

 

[timsk]

@timsk
Thanx for transcribing what Russia is transmitting on RT.

Doesn't make it wrong though does it, CV.
Indeed, it's infinitely more plausible than the explanation that Putin is some power mad megalomaniac intent on world domination.

Yet again, I implore you to put your agenda to one side and attempt to view the situation through the eyes of the Russian hierarchy - then you'll start to get somewhere. As it is, your unwillingness to consider any alternative to 'Putin's a nutter that has to go' and 'I'm right and your wrong' is largely why we're all in this mess. Surely the events of the last two years have taught you that if politicians, MSM and so called 'experts' are all signing from the same hymn sheet - that's the time to smell a very, very big rat. They're trying to play us all for fools and royally stitch us all up. It worked a treat last time and they're pulling the same trick again here. Biden and the western liberal elites want this war and don't give a toss about ordinary people - especially Ukrainians.

What's you interpretation of Georgia and russian puppet states of Abcasia and South Ossetia?

Same answer as the last time you asked a tangential question - I don't have a view - as I don't have an agenda.