Ukraine invasion

[timsk]

Couldn't agree more. Putin is the immediate problem and must be dealt with. Also agree that more problems will come as a result of change inside Russia. It's not as simple as saying, change leader, remove sanctions, lets get back to normal. That is not going to happen.

Hi c_v,
To my mind, you're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you seem to be saying that Putin's the problem, ergo let's get rid of Putin. While, on the other hand, you seem to be saying that the problem won't go away by removing Putin. Eh?!!! The latter is correct btw and, as numerous historical examples illustrate, removing someone like Putin and creating a power vacuum can lead to even bigger problems.

Most senior officials and Russian military strategists agree with Putin and view the west in exactly the same way as he does. Ditto for the bulk of the population - albeit for different reasons. He's a figurehead - a very powerful and dangerous one I grant you - but what he isn't is a lone maverick who's acting without the support of his Kremlin colleagues. The fixation that everyone has on Putin is a bigger problem than Putin himself, IMO. He's just one man and, in many ways, no worse than Biden, Trudeau, Macron and BoJo etc., etc.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

While, on the other hand, you seem to be saying that the problem won't go away by removing Putin. Eh?!!!

Where is the contraddiction, removing him is necessary but maybe not enough.

Most senior officials and Russian military strategists agree with Putin and view the west in exactly the same way as he does. Ditto for the bulk of the population - albeit for different reasons. He's a figurehead - a very powerful and dangerous one I grant you - but what he isn't is a lone maverick who's acting without the support of his Kremlin colleagues.

It was the same with Romania and Ceausescu.

He's just one man and, in many ways, no worse than Biden, Trudeau, Macron and BoJo etc., etc.

Sorry to desagree, you don't need a coup or a revolution to get rid of them, only an election.

 

[counter_violent]

Hi c_v,
To my mind, you're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you seem to be saying that Putin's the problem, ergo let's get rid of Putin. While, on the other hand, you seem to be saying that the problem won't go away by removing Putin. Eh?!!! The latter is correct btw and, as numerous historical examples illustrate, removing someone like Putin and creating a power vacuum can lead to even bigger problems.

Most senior officials and Russian military strategists agree with Putin and view the west in exactly the same way as he does. Ditto for the bulk of the population - albeit for different reasons. He's a figurehead - a very powerful and dangerous one I grant you - but what he isn't is a lone maverick who's acting without the support of his Kremlin colleagues. The fixation that everyone has on Putin is a bigger problem than Putin himself, IMO. He's just one man and, in many ways, no worse than Biden, Trudeau, Macron and BoJo etc., etc.
Tim.

Hi Tim,

I'm puzzled. How do you imagine a dictatorship works? Here's how I think it works. Climb the greasy pole, try to keep nose clean, don't say anything that might be out of line with herr dictator cos that might land you in prison, family lose state apartment etc. Putin has been busying himself over the years reversing reforms after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Secured his grip on power by crushing all and any opposition from without or within. Has the mindset that is at least 50 yrs out of date. Harks back to the good old days where the leaders word is not even questioned. TBH the blokes a complete tit. So, it's impossible for anyone to know what level of support he has amongst the power brokers inside Russia. The point is, it will take time to find that out. It's pretty obvious that Putin is done for. Really is just a question of who and when. And yes, things are about to get far worse in Russia, but there's still no justification for Putin to remain.

I've never once disagreed just how bad the West leaders are. I suppose the difference is, they consult with each other, or have a vote in parliament/ senate and opposition voices at least get to vent before any actions start. And yeah, they also get it spectacularly wrong, their justifications don't hold water, either by mistake, or more likely, by design. Kuwait was justified but Iraq was out and out nonsense. So, there's mountains of hypocrisy in the West, but on balance it's still a better system than living under a dictator.

Is anyone going to engage the points made previously re Taiwan, Hong Kong.

I don't think there is any justification for Putin's invasion. I don't have anything to add to this.

 

[Atilla]

Ukraine would not have been granted NATO membership given that this would have been tantamount to provoking the bear by poking it with a stick. What on earth makes you think the West would encourage Ukraine to join NATO and make itself a target by allowing western nukes to be based on it's soil? It's just total conspiracy theory nonsense.

Really???

So why wasn't this agreed to in pre-meetings prior to the war? It is not what you think. It is just war games between superpowers to make life as threatening as possible.

At some point, Putin is gone and whoever takes over has to engage with the West on the terms that the West impose, just in order to get sanctions lifted, which may or may not be enough to quell internal unrest.

Do you really believe this? Putin or Russia will not engage on West's terms now and after he goes you think the next leader will? You say they will have to do this just to get sanctions lifted?

This is about a wishful West's wet dream as one can imagine. It is soooo weak. So much drivel. Israel hasn't agreed to any restrictions or sanctions to trading with Russia at all?

Why is that? US's big ally and even biggest power lobby influencing US foreign policy hasn't applied or participated in any sanction?

Why do you think that is? What has US said to Israel about her actions? Any journalist enquiring how so?

Zelensky with his Jewish background and $billion dollar deposit who appears out of no where to lead Ukraine. All these shenanigans and you believe Russia will just simply dance to whatever tune West plays to get sanctions lifted.

I don't think so. Least of all because sanctions don't work.


I do not see Putin as the problem here! Yes he is a dictator who has gotten old and on the way out. However, the issue is the West and NATO's expansion encroaching on Russia security.

Re-regurgitating western propaganda about their interpretation of how the world should be is just so tiring.

Increasingly it is becoming apparent that Ukraine being at the crossroads of history for so long has some way to go before maturing to becoming a representative independent state. It is littered with factions and conflicting interests. As a consequence, it is being used as a pawn and innocent civilians are suffering.

 

[counter_violent]

Really???

So why wasn't this agreed to in pre-meetings prior to the war? It is not what you think. It is just war games between superpowers to make life as threatening as possible.

You tell me ! Seems like Putin had no intention of holding off to negotiate anything. Macron certainly had his nose put out of joint.

Do you really believe this? Putin or Russia will not engage on West's terms now and after he goes you think the next leader will? You say they will have to do this just to get sanctions lifted?

Yes, Russia will have to go through years of pain, make all the right noises, comply with international directives. Hand Putin over to face trial for war crimes. That's before they are allowed to normalise relations with the West.

This is about a wishful West's wet dream as one can imagine. It is soooo weak. So much drivel. Israel hasn't agreed to any restrictions or sanctions to trading with Russia at all?

Why is that? US's big ally and even biggest power lobby influencing US foreign policy hasn't applied or participated in any sanction?

What does Israel have to do with the price of fish ! This is how important they are to Russia.

List of the largest trading partners of Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why do you think that is? What has US said to Israel about her actions? Any journalist enquiring how so?

No idea and I don't care. Irrelevant.

Zelensky with his Jewish background and $billion dollar deposit who appears out of no where to lead Ukraine. All these shenanigans and you believe Russia will just simply dance to whatever tune West plays to get sanctions lifted.

I don't think so. Least of all because sanctions don't work.

Biggest, widest supported, most far reaching sanctions ever imposed. A bit early to say if they will work or not. Interestingly, the head of the Russian central bank has had her resignation letter rejected by Putin twice. She sounds like she has total confidence in Russia's current plight.

I do not see Putin as the problem here! Yes he is a dictator who has gotten old and on the way out. However, the issue is the West and NATO's expansion encroaching on Russia security.

No the issue is, he has invaded a sovereign country for a second time. He has no moral compass and is in fact a war criminal. I'm looking forward to the day he attends the special court and explains to the world why he did what he did.

Re-regurgitating western propaganda about their interpretation of how the world should be is just so tiring.

Increasingly it is becoming apparent that Ukraine being at the crossroads of history for so long has some way to go before maturing to becoming a representative independent state. It is littered with factions and conflicting interests. As a consequence, it is being used as a pawn and innocent civilians are suffering.

Zelensky won a landslide election victory essentially on an anti- corruption ticket. Cleaning up the Ukraine had to happen before the EU would accept them into the fold. Looks like this application process will be accelerated now after the Ukraine has so ably demonstrated it's democratic values and willingness to fight for freedom.

Zelensky has totally outsmarted Putin at every turn. Just hope he survives long enough to claim his peace prize.

 

[Rufus_Leakey]

Most senior officials and Russian military strategists agree with Putin and view the west in exactly the same way as he does.

In this video showing part a meeting recorded a few days before the invasion"special military operation," the senior officials sitting 9 meters away from Putin look more like they fear for what would happen to themselves or their families if they disagree with him.

 

[Rufus_Leakey]

Zelensky with his Jewish background and $billion dollar deposit

Wouldn't most of us be happy if our net worth was higher by a factor of 1,000?

Volodymyr Zelenskyy Net Worth

What is Volodymyr Zelenskyy's net worth?

www.celebritynetworth.com

 

[Mumpsimus]

Russia will have to go through years of pain, make all the right noises, comply with international directives. Hand Putin over to face trial for war crimes. That's before they are allowed to normalise relations with the West.

I'd agree with the years of pain bit, which haven't really started as yet. For this to happen Russia would need to lose its export markets for oil and gas for starters. This was going to happen in the case of Europe as the transition to renewables took place and all that Putin has done is accelerate a process that would have taken more than a decade to one which could start to have an effect in 3 or 4 years. As for the rest of its exports, like wheat, minerals etc, I can't see the world being able to wean itself off those at all.

....and handing Putin over to face war crimes...er, no. That imho is through the looking glass. Outcomes are more likely to be retirement due to "ill -health" or something more definite...in both of these cases it's the inner circle who would have to act as the likelihood of a popular uprising seems to me to be vanishingly small atm. Of course, the story for Putin will only end one way as it does for us all, being well into old git territory. One might recall that Reagan had already started to show signs of Alzheimer's whilst he was still in office...getting old is a bugger.

Meanwhile, the Chinese stand to gain whatever happens

 

[timsk]

Yes, Russia will have to go through years of pain, make all the right noises, comply with international directives. Hand Putin over to face trial for war crimes. That's before they are allowed to normalise relations with the West.

Hi c_v,
I tell you what, you deliver Tony Blair to the Hague for war crimes and I'll deliver Putin. Fair enough?!

No the issue is, he has invaded a sovereign country for a second time. He has no moral compass and is in fact a war criminal. I'm looking forward to the day he attends the special court and explains to the world why he did what he did.

You say you don't have an agenda against Putin, yet pretty well everything you post is about how awful he is and he must be got rid of or made to stand trial. Okay, I'll indulge you. Let's imagine Putin is history: he suddenly resigns, dies of a heart attack or someone slips him a dose of polonium in his afternoon cup of Earl Grey. What do you suppose happens then? Do you think the Russians are suddenly going to back down and claim they never wanted the war and it was all Putin's idea? Furthermore, now that he's gone they'll call a ceasefire and withdraw? C'mon, you know that ain't gonna happen!

Zelensky won a landslide election victory essentially on an anti- corruption ticket. Cleaning up the Ukraine had to happen before the EU would accept them into the fold. Looks like this application process will be accelerated now after the Ukraine has so ably demonstrated it's democratic values and willingness to fight for freedom.

Yes, he won it on an anti-corruption ticket and the irony is that he was practising the very same corruption he promised the electorate he'd clear up. There's a word for that: hypocrite.

Volodymyr Zelensky: Ukraine's hero of democracy​

. . .Just hope he survives long enough to claim his peace prize.

A peace prize - now you're having a laugh. You want to give a Nazi sympathiser the peace prize - really?! Here he is addressing Congress last week - asking for and getting billions - to prolong a war that will result in the deaths of thousands of people. Note the insignia on his shirt, none other than the Iron Cross which Germany withdrew at the end of second world war for some reason - can't think why! The only prize Zelensky's likely to get will be one at this years' Oscars. This 'Putin man bad, Zelensky man good' line really is starting to wear a bit thin.
Tim.

 

[Mumpsimus]

Note the insignia on his shirt, none other than the Iron Cross which Germany withdrew at the end of second world war for some reason - can't think why!

Niet tovarich Timsky! If you're saying that everyone who uses this form of cross is automatically a Nazi then perhaps you might care to examine the Maltese/St John Cross which was around somewhat before Adolph and remains in use amongst good (and bad) Christians the world over....indeed there are a few "Iron Crosses" decorating a certain ambulance service operating not far from your dacha.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I am reading that in Belarus many people are sabotaging russian troops and opposing the invasion stronger than what is happening in Russia.
Brainwashing there is not as efficent as in Russia and approval rate of Lukashenko is lower.
I think he is the weak ring in this story, and he is also not as well protected as Putin.
Probably Lukashenko will be the first to go, not killed but maybe escaping + coup.

 

[counter_violent]

I am reading that in Belarus many people are sabotaging russian troops and opposing the invasion stronger than what is happening in Russia.
Brainwashing there is not as efficent as in Russia and approval rate of Lukashenko is lower.
I think he is the weak ring in this story, and he is also not as well protected as Putin.
Probably Lukashenko will be the first to go, not killed but maybe escaping + coup.

Oh Cav, don't forget comp entry.

That's an interesting angle, an uprising in Belarus.

Highly unlikely given that there are too many forces already in place to quell such opposition. But who knows !

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Coordination Council (Belarus) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[counter_violent]

Hi c_v,
I tell you what, you deliver Tony Blair to the Hague for war crimes and I'll deliver Putin. Fair enough?!

You say you don't have an agenda against Putin, yet pretty well everything you post is about how awful he is and he must be got rid of or made to stand trial. Okay, I'll indulge you. Let's imagine Putin is history: he suddenly resigns, dies of a heart attack or someone slips him a dose of polonium in his afternoon cup of Earl Grey. What do you suppose happens then? Do you think the Russians are suddenly going to back down and claim they never wanted the war and it was all Putin's idea? Furthermore, now that he's gone they'll call a ceasefire and withdraw? C'mon, you know that ain't gonna happen!

Yes, he won it on an anti-corruption ticket and the irony is that he was practising the very same corruption he promised the electorate he'd clear up. There's a word for that: hypocrite.

Volodymyr Zelensky: Ukraine's hero of democracy​

A peace prize - now you're having a laugh. You want to give a Nazi sympathiser the peace prize - really?! Here he is addressing Congress last week - asking for and getting billions - to prolong a war that will result in the deaths of thousands of people. Note the insignia on his shirt, none other than the Iron Cross which Germany withdrew at the end of second world war for some reason - can't think why! The only prize Zelensky's likely to get will be one at this years' Oscars. This 'Putin man bad, Zelensky man good' line really is starting to wear a bit thin.
Tim.

View attachment 315214

Start the petition then on Bliar. I'll sign it no problem.

Putin's justifications for his thoughts and actions are a non starter and everybody knows it.
Post Putin Russia turmoil will be part of the process undoubtedly. But that's tomorrows problem, not today's problem.

As with all elections, people usually vote for what they consider to be the least worst option. Why would Ukraine be any different.

If Zelensky survives, I recon the peace prize would be a nailed on certainty, knowing how that organisation operates.

 

[timsk]

Niet tovarich Timsky! If you're saying that everyone who uses this form of cross is automatically a Nazi then perhaps you might care to examine the Maltese/St John Cross which was around somewhat before Adolph and remains in use amongst good (and bad) Christians the world over....indeed there are a few "Iron Crosses" decorating a certain ambulance service operating not far from your dacha.

Hi Mum',
No, I'm not saying that at all.
I'm well aware of the Iron Cross' long history and that it's the insignia of the Ukraine armed service. The point is that In spite of that, post WW2, the symbol has Nazi connotations - so wearing it carries risk. Its contentious and provocative symbolism will trigger some people. That Zelensky chooses a T-shirt with the symbol over a suit and tie with a nice pin of the national flag is quite deliberate. He knows exactly what he's doing. Namely, he's winding Putin up and appeasing the Azov battalion et al upon whom he relies heavily to fight Russian forces. That's the Nazi connection. It's hardly statesmanlike and, IMO, is totally inappropriate dress for a national leader who supposedly wants peace.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Hi Mum',
No, I'm not saying that at all.
I'm well aware of the Iron Cross' long history and that it's the insignia of the Ukraine armed service. The point is that In spite of that, post WW2, the symbol has Nazi connotations - so wearing it carries risk. Its contentious and provocative symbolism will trigger some people. That Zelensky chooses a T-shirt with the symbol over a suit and tie with a nice pin of the national flag is quite deliberate. He knows exactly what he's doing. Namely, he's winding Putin up and appeasing the Azov battalion et al upon whom he relies heavily to fight Russian forces. That's the Nazi connection. It's hardly statesmanlike and, IMO, is totally inappropriate dress for a national leader who supposedly wants peace.
Tim.

Totally agree. Zelensky is absolutely winding Putin up. I think it's marvelous trolling of the highest order and fully supported by the West.

All's fair in love and war !

And Putin is the model of statesmanship is he.

 

[timsk]

And Putin is the model of statesmanship is he.

When it comes to attire - yes.
BoJo could learn a thing or two from Putin in that department as well - as he's an absolute mess!

 

[counter_violent]

Lets get back on topic.
This Zelensky geeza has a wicked sense of humour.

 

[Mumpsimus]

It's hardly statesmanlike and, IMO, is totally inappropriate dress for a national leader who supposedly wants peace.

Once a comedian, always a comedian. In the same vein, as dress codes obviously signal far more than just keeping one from being naked, I was amused at the speculation surrounding the Russian central bank lady's attire and the cosmonauts gaudy combos....the latter claim that they had a lot of material in stock...boum boum

 

[counter_violent]

When it comes to attire - yes.
BoJo could learn a thing or two from Putin in that department as well - as he's an absolute mess!

The real reason Zelensky dresses as he does is to show solidarity with his fellow Ukrainians.

We are all in it together. I am one of you.