Trump Presidency and the Consequences

Now change the groups in this famous poem and tell me this is not happening right now.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
 
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It's all a puzzle ain't it !

Any thoughts on big tech shutting down anyone who cares to question MSM narrative?
Sure.

Unfortunately and unlike what some would like to think here on T2W, all of these questions are not black and white. They never have been and they never will. To my mind it's naïve to divide the world into Good Guys and Bad Guys which is why it's generally children who play Cowboys and Indians (at least they did when the world and I were young) and as thinking* adults it's incumbent on us to take a bucket of salt with everything we hear . I admit that doing that with ideas one believes to be right and just is often difficult but in essence that's a definition of objectivity.

Next question, perleaze.

* in the loosest sense
 
Nobody is reporting the news. All we have is biased narrative and misinformation. Every current thread on T2W follows the same path. Those who question the BS spouted by MSM, Social Media and those who buy in to it without question/ or too lazy/ incompetent to look at both sides.

I look at both sides, always have, then decide which side is telling the truth and which side is spouting BS.
It's not possible to only follow one side and then claim that you have informed opinion.
So how do you look at both sides, cv? You seem to cast off MSM as BS (you know, those organs that have uncovered government misdeeds and scandals by the thousands) so you are left with the “news“ sites on the internet who you appear to believe implicitly. How have you tested (or indeed how can you test) the so called evidence they come up with? After all, these are the sort of sites that produced “evidence” that the Americans only got to a Hollywood film set and not the moon.

By the way, do you think it’s in any way possible that the policeman filmed removing the barrier for the protesters was a Trump sympathiser rather than part of an establishment plot?

Oh, and if there is any evidence of massive fraud how come the Courts have given 60 judgements that there has been no such evidence put before them? Is it really feasible that all those judges have subscribed to some plot? There might be a few bad apples amongst them but surely these are people with the highest integrity in the land.
 
It's all a puzzle ain't it !

Any thoughts on big tech shutting down anyone who cares to question MSM narrative?
I'm more afraid of ordinary people shutting down anyone who cares to question MSM narrative.

That's the real danger.
 
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Well, it seems to me that anyone that dares to disagree with the States 'official narrative' is being branded as a traitor spreading disinformation.

That smells awfully like Communist Dictatorship in full spate.

Certainly isn't 'freedom of speech'.

& yes, I do value and want to hear what the State thinks.
But I also want to hear what those who don't agree with the State think.

That way I can come to a balanced conclusion having considered all points of view.

Information, and so the control of the flow of it, is power.

If the only information you have is biased, you can only come to a biased conclusion based on it.

This whole saga stinks of corruption, fraud and manipulation on an epic scale.

It's nothing short of a propaganda war.
 
Oh, and if there is any evidence of massive fraud how come the Courts have given 60 judgements that there has been no such evidence put before them? Is it really feasible that all those judges have subscribed to some plot? There might be a few bad apples amongst them but surely these are people with the highest integrity in the land.
Jon,
You're continually focussing on the wrong thing: you can’t see the wood for the trees. So, I’ll make one last attempt to explain the problem using an analogy which everyone - in the U.K. at least - will be able to relate to very easily.

As you know, the leave vote won the 2016 referendum by a slim margin of 52% to 48%. The subsequent furore that erupted and has raged on for four years was unprecedented. All sorts of accusations were made and it took a further two elections to finally settle the matter: the EU elections in May 2019 in which the Brexit Party triumphed and the December 2019 general election in which the Tories won with a landslide victory. Now, imagine if you will, the following scenario. . .

Let’s suppose that within weeks of the June 2016 vote, expert witnesses were interviewed, dozens upon dozens of affidavits were signed alleging wrongdoing and a fair amount of YouTube footage was gathered that appeared to show clear breaches of election protocols at polling stations and counting centres. Additional evidence indicated . . .
Thousands of underage voters
Thousands of votes from people not registered to vote
Thousands of votes from foreign nationals not eligible to vote
Thousands of people who voted more than once
Thousands of dead people voting
Etc., etc.

Now, let’s further assume that all the above massively favoured the leave campain at the expense of the remain campaign. If the allegations of fraud were proved, the numbers involved would be more than sufficient to overturn the referendum result. Given the fuss remainers made about an advert on the side of a bus, don’t you think they’d have something to say about all the above? Fear not, it’s a rhetorical question - we both know the answer. Now, your riposte over and over again is that there’s no evidence of fraud in the U.S. election and the courts have rejected the allegations made. Returning to the analogy, what do you think the remain camp would say about that? Would they accept it, or would they be demanding a full and transparent investigation into all the allegations made? Again, a rhetorical question; we both know they’d be spitting feathers and protesting in every street in every town in every county the length and breadth of the land demanding just such an investigation. Telling them to move on, the vote was fair and no evidence of wrongdoing was found would not appease them - it would anger them. We know this with absolute certainty because they spent four years trying - and very nearly succeeding - to overturn the result based on far flimsier ‘evidence’ of malfeasance than the list above.

Now, here’s a question that’s not rhetorical that you can answer. In light of the analogy, do you at least understand what the problem in the U.S. is and why it isn’t likely to just blow over in the way that Biden and the democrats hope that it will? Furthermore, if the expert witnesses (computer scientists and data analysts etc.) are all wrong, why aren’t explanations provided that debunk their statements? And if the people who signed the numerous affidavits are all lying - why not prosecute them for purjory? And if the YouTube footage is all fake, doctored or whatever - why don’t they show that? This would all be easy to do if - as you claim - there’s no basis to any of the allegations of fraud. Just repeating ad nauseum that the courts have looked at it and found nothing untoward simply isn’t acceptable. It wouldn’t have been acceptable in the referendum analogy and it’s equally unacceptable in the U.S. election. Surely you understand that?
Tim.
 
Jon,
You're continually focussing on the wrong thing: you can’t see the wood for the trees. So, I’ll make one last attempt to explain the problem using an analogy which everyone - in the U.K. at least - will be able to relate to very easily.

As you know, the leave vote won the 2016 referendum by a slim margin of 52% to 48%. The subsequent furore that erupted and has raged on for four years was unprecedented. All sorts of accusations were made and it took a further two elections to finally settle the matter: the EU elections in May 2019 in which the Brexit Party triumphed and the December 2019 general election in which the Tories won with a landslide victory. Now, imagine if you will, the following scenario. . .

Let’s suppose that within weeks of the June 2016 vote, expert witnesses were interviewed, dozens upon dozens of affidavits were signed alleging wrongdoing and a fair amount of YouTube footage was gathered that appeared to show clear breaches of election protocols at polling stations and counting centres. Additional evidence indicated . . .
Thousands of underage voters
Thousands of votes from people not registered to vote
Thousands of votes from foreign nationals not eligible to vote
Thousands of people who voted more than once
Thousands of dead people voting
Etc., etc.

Now, let’s further assume that all the above massively favoured the leave campain at the expense of the remain campaign. If the allegations of fraud were proved, the numbers involved would be more than sufficient to overturn the referendum result. Given the fuss remainers made about an advert on the side of a bus, don’t you think they’d have something to say about all the above? Fear not, it’s a rhetorical question - we both know the answer. Now, your riposte over and over again is that there’s no evidence of fraud in the U.S. election and the courts have rejected the allegations made. Returning to the analogy, what do you think the remain camp would say about that? Would they accept it, or would they be demanding a full and transparent investigation into all the allegations made? Again, a rhetorical question; we both know they’d be spitting feathers and protesting in every street in every town in every county the length and breadth of the land demanding just such an investigation. Telling them to move on, the vote was fair and no evidence of wrongdoing was found would not appease them - it would anger them. We know this with absolute certainty because they spent four years trying - and very nearly succeeding - to overturn the result based on far flimsier ‘evidence’ of malfeasance than the list above.

Now, here’s a question that’s not rhetorical that you can answer. In light of the analogy, do you at least understand what the problem in the U.S. is and why it isn’t likely to just blow over in the way that Biden and the democrats hope that it will? Furthermore, if the expert witnesses (computer scientists and data analysts etc.) are all wrong, why aren’t explanations provided that debunk their statements? And if the people who signed the numerous affidavits are all lying - why not prosecute them for purjory? And if the YouTube footage is all fake, doctored or whatever - why don’t they show that? This would all be easy to do if - as you claim - there’s no basis to any of the allegations of fraud. Just repeating ad nauseum that the courts have looked at it and found nothing untoward simply isn’t acceptable. It wouldn’t have been acceptable in the referendum analogy and it’s equally unacceptable in the U.S. election. Surely you understand that?
Tim.
No, I don’t understand.

If there was really the strength of evidence that you depict then the Courts would have found it so. They did not.

So far as I am concerned the Courts are by far and away the most reliable arbiters and I don’t understand why you don’t accept that.
 
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No, I don’t understand.
Okay Jon, I'm not wanting to embarrass you - just genuinely trying to enable you to see the wood for the trees. I won't push it any further as you're clearly not willing to engage with the key points in my posts, or those of c_v and MOC etc. I trust you'll have no objections to me drawing my own conclusions as to why you're doing that so conspicuously, just as I've drawn my own conclusions as to why MSM and the democrats refuse to address the legitimate concerns of circa 50 million U.S. citizens.
Tim.
 
So how do you look at both sides, cv? You seem to cast off MSM as BS (you know, those organs that have uncovered government misdeeds and scandals by the thousands) so you are left with the “news“ sites on the internet who you appear to believe implicitly. How have you tested (or indeed how can you test) the so called evidence they come up with? After all, these are the sort of sites that produced “evidence” that the Americans only got to a Hollywood film set and not the moon.

By the way, do you think it’s in any way possible that the policeman filmed removing the barrier for the protesters was a Trump sympathiser rather than part of an establishment plot?

Oh, and if there is any evidence of massive fraud how come the Courts have given 60 judgements that there has been no such evidence put before them? Is it really feasible that all those judges have subscribed to some plot? There might be a few bad apples amongst them but surely these are people with the highest integrity in the land.

I post links from numerous sources including quite a lot from the BBC. On the Brexit thread, it was much easier to sort truth from propaganda, but over the last 4 years the situation has become intolerable. I don't have time to compare and contrast every source to do the work for everyone else. There has been a marked shift from reporting news, to offering opinion on every story. As others have stated, it is nothing short of peddling misinformation and propaganda.

One patriotic policeman surrounded by dozens of collegues and protesters and you would like me to believe that he alone was responsible for the biggest security breach in US history. The other 2 dozen officers by his side could easily have corrected that action. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever does it !

The courts rulings have been done to death. Almost all applications to the courts were dismissed before they started. These were not rulings based on any evidence. No evidence was ever presented, so to suggest that the judges weighed the evidence is so disingenuous as to be laughable.
 
I post links from numerous sources including quite a lot from the BBC. On the Brexit thread, it was much easier to sort truth from propaganda, but over the last 4 years the situation has become intolerable. I don't have time to compare and contrast every source to do the work for everyone else. There has been a marked shift from reporting news, to offering opinion on every story. As others have stated, it is nothing short of peddling misinformation and propaganda.

One patriotic policeman surrounded by dozens of collegues and protesters and you would like me to believe that he alone was responsible for the biggest security breach in US history. The other 2 dozen officers by his side could easily have corrected that action. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever does it !

The courts rulings have been done to death. Almost all applications to the courts were dismissed before they started. These were not rulings based on any evidence. No evidence was ever presented, so to suggest that the judges weighed the evidence is so disingenuous as to be laughable.
So when a judge says “The court finds that there is no credible or reliable evidence that the 2020 General Election in Nevada was affected by fraud.” it’s straight off the top of his head without him actually having seen any is it. Laughable indeed.
 
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So far as I am concerned the Courts are by far and away the most reliable arbiters and I don’t understand why you don’t accept that.
Jon,
I don't accept it because they haven't done what you claim they have. Had they done so, there would any amount of content all over MSM and the internet that clearly shows that all the YouTube videos are fake, that the affidavits are all lies and the statements/interviews from expert data analysts and computer boffins etc. are all wrong. Point us to the evidence that clearly shows any of that. There isn't any - so you can't. Just repeating ad nauseum that the courts say there's no evidence when they've not even bothered to read, listen and watch any amount of it put before them simply won't do. I've explained why it won't do very clearly using the referendum as an anology.

I think your problem is that you understand all these points full well and, as such, you know there's a legitimate issue with the result of the election. But that's a very uncomfortable truth which you don't want to accept and confront for a variety of reasons; not just because you don't like Trump, but because it opens up a pandora's box of excrement that's likely to have lasting ramifications for democracy and free speech for us all. And that's scary, I'm scared! It's deeply, deeply troubling.
Tim.

PS: I've added this following your edit which I didn't see before I wrote my last post.
 
So when a judge says “The court finds that there is no credible or reliable evidence that the 2020 General Election in Nevada was affected by fraud.” it’s straight off the top of his head without him actually having seen any is it. Laughable indeed.
Right back at ya.

Perhaps you can explain why when put to the joint session to certify the election, the votes were not unanimous. Most votes where challenges took place, were 93 to 7 . This is significant because, where the states have investigated the claims of fraud and irregularities, they have found that there are questions needing answers.
However, even this was dismissed in the final vote by the joint session.
This is deeply disturbing. It shows a level of contempt for all voters across the US.
We had the same contempt for voters shown time and again in the UK over Brexit.

I am not the one who needs to justify my position.
 
Jon,
I don't accept it because they haven't done what you claim they have. Had they done so, there would any amount of content all over MSM and the internet that clearly shows that all the YouTube videos are fake, that the affidavits are all lies and the statements/interviews from expert data analysts and computer boffins etc. are all wrong. Point us to the evidence that clearly shows any of that. There isn't any - so you can't. Just repeating ad nauseum that the courts say there's no evidence when they've not even bothered to read, listen and watch any amount of it put before them simply won't do. I've explained why it won't do very clearly using the referendum as an anology.

I think your problem is that you understand all these points full well and, as such, you know there's a legitimate issue with the result of the election. But that's a very uncomfortable truth which you don't want to accept and confront for a variety of reasons; not just because you don't like Trump, but because it opens up a pandora's box of excrement that's likely to have lasting ramifications for democracy and free speech for us all. And that's scary, I'm scared! It's deeply, deeply troubling.
Tim.

PS: I've added this following your edit which I didn't see before I wrote my last post.
And I will not stop pointing you at the Courts since it is they who are the custodians of the rule of law and who are the final arbiters. It is a heavy responsibility, but they have the proven integrity to carry it and they, quite rightly, carry the trust of the american people. As the main stream media have constantly reported none of them have found credible evidence of significant fraud despite the fact that Trump’s legal teams would have moved heaven and earth to put some before them if they could.

Whatever you wish to believe is up to you, so far as I’m concerned until the Courts or their equivalents tell me there has been significant fraud I‘m content to think it was a fair result.

ps: wonder how the Democrats Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff managed to defeat Republican incumbents Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue in the run-off Senate election in Georgia, but I suppose you’ll tell me they fiddled that too.
 
And I will not stop pointing you at the Courts since it is they who are the custodians of the rule of law and who are the final arbiters. It is a heavy responsibility, but they have the proven integrity to carry it and they, quite rightly, carry the trust of the american people. As the main stream media have constantly reported none of them have found credible evidence of significant fraud despite the fact that Trump’s legal teams would have moved heaven and earth to put some before them if they could.

Whatever you wish to believe is up to you, so far as I’m concerned until the Courts or their equivalents tell me there has been significant fraud I‘m content to think it was a fair result.

ps: wonder how the Democrats Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff managed to defeat Republican incumbents Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue in the run-off Senate election in Georgia, but I suppose you’ll tell me they fiddled that too.
Jon,
Your complete and utter refusal to address any of the very clear points I and others have made is starting to become irksome. If you want to continue to put your hands over your ears and bury your head in the sand and repeat the same tedious cliché about the courts ad nauseum - that's your prerogative. But, unless you make some attempt to address my points just as I've gone out of my way to address yours - there's no point in continuing with these exchanges, as there's no prospect of anyone on either side of the argument learning anything new or benefiting in any way. The onus to break the deadlock lies entirely with you.
Tim.
 
And I will not stop pointing you at the Courts since it is they who are the custodians of the rule of law and who are the final arbiters. It is a heavy responsibility, but they have the proven integrity to carry it and they, quite rightly, carry the trust of the american people. As the main stream media have constantly reported none of them have found credible evidence of significant fraud despite the fact that Trump’s legal teams would have moved heaven and earth to put some before them if they could.

Whatever you wish to believe is up to you, so far as I’m concerned until the Courts or their equivalents tell me there has been significant fraud I‘m content to think it was a fair result.

ps: wonder how the Democrats Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff managed to defeat Republican incumbents Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue in the run-off Senate election in Georgia, but I suppose you’ll tell me they fiddled that too.

I sat through all the state legislature hearings into election irregularities/ possible fraud/ non adherence to the written state election law etc. I heard from election workers, postal workers, data scientists, auditors, actuaries. Every single one of them giving testimony under a signed affidavit.

As to the Georgia run off elections, the same data spikes happened towards the end of the count showing huge blocks of votes for the trailing candidate, which then went on to be the winning candidate. These are the same abnormalities that showed up in the Nov 3rd election.
 
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