Salty Gibbon
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Wow !! Did you then exit and take the loss ?
Expensive lesson.
Trading the US the Naz/Mr. Charts Way
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Wow !! Did you then exit and take the loss ?
Expensive lesson.
Salty Gibbon
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Did that experience act as a permanent cure for not cutting losses or have you repeated the feat again since then ?
timsk
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Salty -
'Permanent cure for cutting losses'. I sure hope so! I believe that everyone makes mistakes regardless of their experience or their chosen field of endeavour. Progress is measured, in part, by one's ability to learn from one's mistakes. IMO, this is especially true in trading. I wouldn't expect - or want - to make the same mistake again and get away with it. I think I've learnt a number of valuable lessons from my blow up; but only time will tell if I've actually learnt them or not.
Tim.
'Permanent cure for cutting losses'. I sure hope so! I believe that everyone makes mistakes regardless of their experience or their chosen field of endeavour. Progress is measured, in part, by one's ability to learn from one's mistakes. IMO, this is especially true in trading. I wouldn't expect - or want - to make the same mistake again and get away with it. I think I've learnt a number of valuable lessons from my blow up; but only time will tell if I've actually learnt them or not.
Tim.
Salty Gibbon
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I've been there too Timsk believe me and I have learnt from my mistakes.
But whether I trust myself not to repeat them is another matter.
As a result I now use real stop orders and not " mental" stops.
It has to be this way for me.
But whether I trust myself not to repeat them is another matter.
As a result I now use real stop orders and not " mental" stops.
It has to be this way for me.
timsk - ouch that must have hurt.
In a perverse way though it may be your saviour.. let me explain.
My first month full time trading I did the same thing on a futures contract - trade didn't work so I left it overnight. Gap open the wrong way so I held on then I committed the sin of sins .. I averaged down (ie bought again so that my breakeven price was reduced). On top of that I did the second greatest sin - I doubled up to bring my breakeven point closer.
You know the end result without me having to go through it. Strangely it wasn't just the money loss that got me - it was the thought that I had committed an error I KNEW not to commit.
That cold feeling in your stomach - I don't have to close my eyes to feel it - its there in a hearbeat. I stopped trading and "researched" the psychology of the markets for 3 months. I beleive it has made me a much better trader. That was 2 years ago and like I say it was one of those "visceral moments" .
Do I now have problems getting out at my stop loss? - its dead easy.
JohnyT -IB is cheap but not zero. What about exchange costs, the costs of the software to convert the feed so you can chart it, etc?. I found once you had opened about 10 symbols , even with broadband it slowed down incredibly - such a shame because it was by far the cheapest option/way of trading by far. Did you find a satisfactory way to get history - for me that was the thing that made it a non runner.
I now use IB as my backup broker.
In a perverse way though it may be your saviour.. let me explain.
My first month full time trading I did the same thing on a futures contract - trade didn't work so I left it overnight. Gap open the wrong way so I held on then I committed the sin of sins .. I averaged down (ie bought again so that my breakeven price was reduced). On top of that I did the second greatest sin - I doubled up to bring my breakeven point closer.
You know the end result without me having to go through it. Strangely it wasn't just the money loss that got me - it was the thought that I had committed an error I KNEW not to commit.
That cold feeling in your stomach - I don't have to close my eyes to feel it - its there in a hearbeat. I stopped trading and "researched" the psychology of the markets for 3 months. I beleive it has made me a much better trader. That was 2 years ago and like I say it was one of those "visceral moments" .
Do I now have problems getting out at my stop loss? - its dead easy.
JohnyT -IB is cheap but not zero. What about exchange costs, the costs of the software to convert the feed so you can chart it, etc?. I found once you had opened about 10 symbols , even with broadband it slowed down incredibly - such a shame because it was by far the cheapest option/way of trading by far. Did you find a satisfactory way to get history - for me that was the thing that made it a non runner.
I now use IB as my backup broker.
timsk
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Russell,
"Strangely it wasn't just the money loss that got me - it was the thought that I had committed an error I KNEW not to commit".
I felt exactly the same way, although in my case, 'error' should be plural - there was a whole catalogue of them. I feel
just thinking about it - and no one can even see me!
Many years ago, my late stepson had a heart transplant. This entitled him to automatic membership of what was then a very exclusive group of people - 'The Zipper Club' . (If you've ever seen the scar tissue that results from such invasive surgery you'll immediately see why that name is SO appropriate!) Perhaps we should start an exclusive club for traders who've had blow ups? Now, can we come up with an equally fitting name as the zipper club? :cheesy:
Tim.
(P.S. The Q's are rhetorical; I don't want to go off on a big red herring on Mr. C's & Naz's excellent thread!)
"Strangely it wasn't just the money loss that got me - it was the thought that I had committed an error I KNEW not to commit".
I felt exactly the same way, although in my case, 'error' should be plural - there was a whole catalogue of them. I feel
just thinking about it - and no one can even see me!Many years ago, my late stepson had a heart transplant. This entitled him to automatic membership of what was then a very exclusive group of people - 'The Zipper Club' . (If you've ever seen the scar tissue that results from such invasive surgery you'll immediately see why that name is SO appropriate!) Perhaps we should start an exclusive club for traders who've had blow ups? Now, can we come up with an equally fitting name as the zipper club? :cheesy:
Tim.
(P.S. The Q's are rhetorical; I don't want to go off on a big red herring on Mr. C's & Naz's excellent thread!)
Mr. Charts
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Here's an example of a trade yesterday where I went long YHOO on one of my usual set-ups and triggers.
For this type of trade you don't even need direct access, you could have traded this very easily and profitably using cfds or spreadbetting.
The first screen shot is the entry using one minute candles. This gradually turned into a swing move on 5 minute candles and I exited as shown on the second screen shot as per my usual rules.
A nice easy 63c per share profit for a maximum initial risk of about 10c-12c
After that initial move there was virtually zero risk all the way as I would have closed the trade had the price come back to the entry level.
I hope someone finds this interesting and useful
Richard
For this type of trade you don't even need direct access, you could have traded this very easily and profitably using cfds or spreadbetting.
The first screen shot is the entry using one minute candles. This gradually turned into a swing move on 5 minute candles and I exited as shown on the second screen shot as per my usual rules.
A nice easy 63c per share profit for a maximum initial risk of about 10c-12c
After that initial move there was virtually zero risk all the way as I would have closed the trade had the price come back to the entry level.
I hope someone finds this interesting and useful
Richard
Attachments
Mr. Charts
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Hi Russ,
Well done - it's about sheer consistency of hit rate with the ave win size being a good multiple of the ave loss size.
R
EK!,
I start the day with three lists of stocks on my radar (and some get dropped and more added during the day using scanners). One of the lists is my core trading stocks, of which YHOO is one. I have specific set -ups which tell me which stocks are likely to present the highest probability trading opportunities and then it is a matter of awaiting my triggers to activate in those particular stocks. When they do I enter the trade immediately and without hesitation. I have immediate mental stops in place in the unlikely but possible event of a trade going against me straightaway. Those are based on the behaviour of the price and triggers post-entry. After that the position is managed according to my specific rules until the exit is triggered.
It might sound complicated, but it really isn't. The nearest analogy I can think of is driving a car. That also requires dynamic responses to multi-factorial dynamic situations. Once you know HOW and WHEN to act, you do so without any real difficulty and the more you apply yourself and gain experience the better you become.
Method, method, method, application, application, application, self-discipline,self-discipline,self-discipline,experience, experience, experience.
It's almost 1.45 now and time for me to start my pre-market prep.
HTH
Well done - it's about sheer consistency of hit rate with the ave win size being a good multiple of the ave loss size.
R
EK!,
I start the day with three lists of stocks on my radar (and some get dropped and more added during the day using scanners). One of the lists is my core trading stocks, of which YHOO is one. I have specific set -ups which tell me which stocks are likely to present the highest probability trading opportunities and then it is a matter of awaiting my triggers to activate in those particular stocks. When they do I enter the trade immediately and without hesitation. I have immediate mental stops in place in the unlikely but possible event of a trade going against me straightaway. Those are based on the behaviour of the price and triggers post-entry. After that the position is managed according to my specific rules until the exit is triggered.
It might sound complicated, but it really isn't. The nearest analogy I can think of is driving a car. That also requires dynamic responses to multi-factorial dynamic situations. Once you know HOW and WHEN to act, you do so without any real difficulty and the more you apply yourself and gain experience the better you become.
Method, method, method, application, application, application, self-discipline,self-discipline,self-discipline,experience, experience, experience.
It's almost 1.45 now and time for me to start my pre-market prep.
HTH
Mr. Charts
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Russ,
I hope you've been in AMGN too ;-)
Richard
I hope you've been in AMGN too ;-)
Richard
Salty Gibbon
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Or BIIB
Same same !!
Same same !!
Mr. Charts
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YES Salty!
I also traded BIIB for excellent profits ;-)) and ERTS profitably and GILD, though GILD was for a 3c loss.
I took AMGN screen shots of the primary and pyramid entries and exit and they should be on our site tonight/tomorrow
Richard
I also traded BIIB for excellent profits ;-)) and ERTS profitably and GILD, though GILD was for a 3c loss.
I took AMGN screen shots of the primary and pyramid entries and exit and they should be on our site tonight/tomorrow
Richard
Amgn
I was but my system took me out for a loss of 18c (automatic stop got taken out on a spike 3 seconds after I entered!!) - I had to re enter and only gained net 6c for the day on that stock.
Still twiddling with the code...........
Edit - My trade was after the initial move _ I was actually waiting to short the potential d top at 57.93 which of course never happened!
I was but my system took me out for a loss of 18c (automatic stop got taken out on a spike 3 seconds after I entered!!) - I had to re enter and only gained net 6c for the day on that stock.
Still twiddling with the code...........
Edit - My trade was after the initial move _ I was actually waiting to short the potential d top at 57.93 which of course never happened!
Mr. Charts said:
Last edited:
Mr. Charts
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Hi Russ,
That's exactly why I never place a stop in the market. You will get taken out very often. I need to see HOW the price is actually trading, not just trades printing off away from the market or fakes.
My stops are in my head but I often close a trade long before my mental stop is hit depending on the price action.
Richard
That's exactly why I never place a stop in the market. You will get taken out very often. I need to see HOW the price is actually trading, not just trades printing off away from the market or fakes.
My stops are in my head but I often close a trade long before my mental stop is hit depending on the price action.
Richard
Richard
I find this is one of the problems of mechanical trading - the brain is just so much better equipped to "see" things whereas a programme needs a line of code for every thought.
Fortunately this is a simple change and I only use mechanical entry - all other exits are managed by me.
I would feel uncomfortable having a totally "naked "position - in time I know I will be more comfortable but thats the whole psychology thing again isn't it - which is what its all about!!!
I find this is one of the problems of mechanical trading - the brain is just so much better equipped to "see" things whereas a programme needs a line of code for every thought.
Fortunately this is a simple change and I only use mechanical entry - all other exits are managed by me.
I would feel uncomfortable having a totally "naked "position - in time I know I will be more comfortable but thats the whole psychology thing again isn't it - which is what its all about!!!
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