The REAL global warming

This is a big political issue, which is why GB is pushing so hard. Anyone who doubts GB on such an important point is going to be insulted. He'll be calling you an Old Etonian next, so watch out.

Unfortunately, the decisions have already been made by the US and China, so Copenhagen is only going to be a spot on this flat earth to voice an opinion.

I can see that it does not matter a damn what the rest of us think. Some companies are going to make big profits in being politically correct, no matter what the outcome is. Windmills must be getting to be good business, these days.
 
This is a big political issue, which is why GB is pushing so hard. Anyone who doubts GB on such an important point is going to be insulted. He'll be calling you an Old Etonian next, so watch out.

Unfortunately, the decisions have already been made by the US and China, so Copenhagen is only going to be a spot on this flat earth to voice an opinion.

I can see that it does not matter a damn what the rest of us think. Some companies are going to make big profits in being politically correct, no matter what the outcome is. Windmills must be getting to be good business, these days.

Windmills are indeed excellent business. Good PR, cracking subsidies, and a nice warm feeling of moral superiority.
 
Best source of wind are Politicians....!....If they get together in front of a windmill farm, then it will generate enough supply to light whole Universe...!
 
Best source of wind are Politicians....!....If they get together in front of a windmill farm, then it will generate enough supply to light whole Universe...!

2 'facts';

The jaunt by the assembled 50,000 great and good to the conference in Copenhagen has used up the equivalent carbon destruction of a small African country in a single year. The US activity/resource war in Iraq and Afghanistan has (so far) used up the equivalent carbon of the African continent for a decade...
 
....Great statistics.....I won't feel guilty of using supercharged 3.0 litre engine car now...!
 
There are only two ways in which carbon emissions will be reduced in my view:

1) Reduce the world population to a fraction of what it is now
2) Develop the technology to have zero emissions

1 is not going to happen and more than likely we will see a 50% increase in the world population which will further increase carbon emissions by a huge amount.

2 is the only answer and all governments should focus entirely on this. I really do believe that if scientists and engineers were tasked with this they would achieve it. With the right funding, sharing of knowledge and global cooperation it could be achieved very quickly.

Tax is definitely not the answer as it cannot prevent an increase in emissions caused by increasing world populations and just means that the rich will continue in the same way as they always have done.

The only reason why there is not a focus on technology to achieve this is that business and powerful lobby groups don't want it.


Paul
 
.....Or just don't worry....leave it all in lap of God....If he is going to send floods then he make arrangements for Noah and Ark....!...Who are we to worry about anything...?

....Poor and animals will come in pairs and rich will bring their cars in pairs..?
 
If he is going to send floods then he make arrangements for Noah and Ark.

I think that in the Old Testament it was said the World would not be destroyed by flood again.


Paul
 
The disappearing Snows of Kilimanjaro have long been one of the iconic totems of the AGW crowd, along with polar bears and other things that look nice when viewed from the comfort of one's fossil-fuelled house or office. God only knows why, this nonsense was exposed ages ago.

However, a new study has been produced by Dutch scientists (Holland, let it be remembered, is not known for its nurturing of Holocaust Deniers) that gives the mad theory yet another wallop. A report on the story below, or see Nature (link at the end) if you can face slogging through the entire thing.

Dutch study: Gore Wrong on Snows of Kilimanjaro

Newspapers and news sites in the Netherlands today extensively broke the news of the findings of a research team led by Professor Jaap Sinninghe Damste — a leading molecular paleontologist at Utrecht University and winner of the prestigious Spinoza Prize — about the melting icecap of the Kilimanjaro, the African mountain that became a symbol of anthropogenic global warming.

Professor Sinninghe Damste’s research, as discussed on the site of the Dutch Organization of Scientific Research (DOSR) — a governmental body — shows that the icecap of Kilimanjaro was not the result of cold air but of large amounts of precipitation which fell at the beginning of the Holocene period, about 11,000 years ago.

The melting and freezing of moisture on top of Kilimanjaro appears to be part of “a natural process of dry and wet periods.” The present melting is not the result of “environmental damage caused by man.”

Professor Damste studied organic biomarker molecules in the sediment record of Lake Challa, near Mount Kilimanjaro, and reconstructed the changes and intensity of precipitation in this part of Africa over the last 25,000 years. They observed an 11,500 year cycle of intense monsoon precipitation. In the dry period between 12,800 and 11,500 years ago, Kilimanjaro was ice-free. At the end of this period, a dramatic climate change from very dry to very wet took place — driven by changes in solar radiation — resulting in the creation of an icecap. At the moment, this part of Africa seems to be at the end of a similar dry period, resulting in the disappearance of the famous icecap.

DOSR calls Al Gore’s iconic use of the melting cap of Kilimanjaro “unfortunate” — since it now seems to be mainly the result of “natural climate variations.”

The journal Nature published the highly technical article by Professor Sinninghe Damste’s team. The website of Elsevier magazine — the Netherlands’ most circulated political weekly — broke the news as follows: “Dutchman discredits Al Gore’s climate evidence.”


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v462/n7273/abs/nature08520.html
 
More consensus :LOL:. Open letter to BO.

"Few challenges facing America and the world are more urgent than combating climate change. The science is beyond dispute and the facts are clear."— PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, NOVEMBER 19 , 2008

With all due respect, Mr. President, that is not true.

We, the undersigned scientists, maintain that the case for alarm regarding climate change is grossly overstated. Surface temperature changes over the past century have been episodic and modest and there has been no net global warming for over a decade now.1,2 After controlling for population growth and property values, there has been no increase in damages from severe weather-related events.3 The computer models forecasting rapid temperature change abjectly fail to explain recent climate behavior.4 Mr. President, your characterization of the scientific facts regarding climate change and the degree of certainty informing the scientific debate is simply incorrect.

•Yun Akusofu, Ph.D University Of Alaska
•Arthur G. Anderson, Ph.D, Director Of Research, IBM (retired)
•Charles R. Anderson, Ph.D Anderson Materials Evaluation
•J. Scott Armstrong, Ph.D, University Of Pennsylvania
•Robert Ashworth, Clearstack LLC
•Ismail Baht, Ph.D, University Of Kashmir
•Colin Barton Csiro (retired)
•David J. Bellamy, OBE, The British Natural Association
•John Blaylock, Los Alamos National Laboratory (retired)
•Edward F. Blick, Ph.D, University Of Oklahoma (emeritus)
•Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, Ph.D, University Of Hull
•Bob Breck Ams, Broadcaster Of The Year 2008
•John Brignell, University Of Southampton (emeritus)
•Mark Campbell, Ph.D, U.S. Naval Academy
•Robert M. Carter, Ph.D, James Cook University
•Ian Clark, Ph.D, Professor, Earth Sciences University Of Ottawa, Ottawa, Canada
•Roger Cohen, Ph.D Fellow, American Physical Society
•Paul Copper, Ph.D, Laurentian University (emeritus)
•Piers Corbyn, MS, Weather Action
•Richard S. Courtney, Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change
•Uberto Crescenti, Ph.D Past-President, Italian Geological Society
•Susan Crockford, Ph.D University Of Victoria
•Joseph S. D'aleo, Fellow, American Meteorological Society
•James Demeo, Ph.D, University Of Kansas (retired)
•David Deming, Ph.D, University Of Oklahoma
•Diane Douglas, Ph.D, Paleoclimatologist
•David Douglass, Ph.D, University Of Rochester
•Robert H. Essenhigh, E.G. Bailey Emeritus, Professor Of Energy Conversion The Ohio State University
•Christopher Essex, Ph.D, University Of Western Ontario
•John Ferguson, Ph.D, University Of Newcastle
•Upon Tyne (retired)
•Eduardo Ferreyra, Argentinian Foundation For A Scientific Ecology
•Michael Fox, Ph.D, American Nuclear Society
•Gordon Fulks, Ph.D, Gordon Fulks And Associates
•Lee Gerhard, Ph.D, State Geologist, Kansas (retired)
•Gerhard Gerlich, Ph.D, Technische Universitat Braunschweig
•Ivar Giaever, Ph.D, Nobel Laureate, Physics
•Albrecht Glatzle, Ph.D, Scientific Director, Inttas (Paraguay)
•Wayne Goodfellow, Ph.D, University Of Ottawa
•James Goodridge, California State Climatologist (retired)
•Laurence Gould, Ph.D, University Of Hartford
•Vincent Gray, Ph.D, New Zealand Climate Coalition
•William M. Gray, Ph.D, Colorado State University
•Kenneth E. Green, D.Env., American Enterprise Institute
•Kesten Green, Ph.D, Monash University
•Will Happer, Ph.D, Princeton University
•Howard C. Hayden, Ph.D, University Of Connecticut (emeritus)
•Ben Herman, Ph.D, University Of Arizona (emeritus)
•Martin Hertzberg, Ph.D, U.S. Navy (retired)
•Doug Hoffman, Ph.D, Author, The Resilient Earth
•Bernd Huettner, Ph.D
•Ole Humlum, Ph.D, University Of Oslo
•A. Neil Hutton, Past President, Canadian Society Of Petroleum Geologists
•Craig D. Idso, Ph.D, Center For The Study Of Carbon Dioxide And Global Change
•Sherwood B. Idso, Ph.D, U.S. Department Of Agriculture (retired)
•Kiminori Itoh, Ph.D, Yokohama National University
•Steve Japar, Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change
•Sten Kaijser, Ph.D, Uppsala University (emeritus)
•Wibjorn Karlen, Ph.D, University Of Stockholm (emeritus)
•Joel Kauffman, Ph.D, University Of The Sciences, Philadelphia (emeritus)
•David Kear, Ph.D, Former Director-General, Nz Dept. Scientific And Industrial Research
•Richard Keen, Ph.D, University Of Colorado
•Dr. Kelvin Kemm, Ph.D, Lifetime Achievers Award, National Science And Technology Forum, South Africa
•Madhav Khandekar, Ph.D, Former Editor, Climate Research
•Robert S. Knox, Ph.D, University Of Rochester (emeritus)
•James P. Koermer, Ph.D, Plymouth State University
•Gerhard Kramm, Ph.D, University Of Alaska Fairbanks
•Wayne Kraus, Ph.D, Kraus Consulting
•Olav M. Kvalheim, Ph.D, Univ. Of Bergen
•Roar Larson, Ph.D, Norwegian University Of Science And Technology
•James F. Lea, Ph.D
•Douglas Leahy, Ph.D, Meteorologist
•Peter R. Leavitt, Certified Consulting Meteorologist
•David R. Legates, Ph.D, University of Delaware
•Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D, Massachusetts Institute Of Technology
•Harry F. Lins, Ph.D. Co-Chair, IPCC Hydrology and Water Resources Working Group
•Anthony R. Lupo, Ph.D, University Of Missouri
•Howard Maccabee, Ph.D, MD Clinical Faculty, Stanford Medical School
•Horst Malberg, Ph.D, Free University of Berlin
•Bjorn Malmgren, Ph.D, Goteburg University (emeritus)
•Jennifer Marohasy, Ph.D, Australian Environment Foundation
•James A Marusek, U.S. Navy (retired)
•Ross Mckitrick, Ph.D, University Of Guelph
•Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D, University Of Virginia
•Timmothy R. Minnich, MS, Minnich And Scotto, Inc.
•Asmunn Moene, Ph.D, Former Head, Forecasting Center, Meteorological Institute, Norway
•Michael Monce, Ph.D, Connecticut College
•Dick Morgan, Ph.D, Exeter University (emeritus)
•Nils-axel Morner, Ph.D, Stockholm University (emeritus)
•David Nowell, D.I.C., Former Chairman, Nato Meteorology Canada
•Cliff Ollier, D.Sc., University Of Western Australia
•Garth W. Paltridge, Ph.D, University Of Tasmania
•Alfred Peckarek, Ph.D, St. Cloud State University
•Dr. Robert A. Perkins, P.E. University Of Alaska
•Ian Pilmer, Ph.D, University Of Melbourne (emeritus)
•Brian R. Pratt, Ph.D, University Of Saskatchewan
•John Reinhard, Ph.D, Ore Pharmaceuticals
•Peter Ridd, Ph.D, James Cook University
•Curt Rose, Ph.D, Bishop's University (emeritus)
•Peter Salonius, M.Sc., Canadian Forest Service
•Gary Sharp, Ph.D, Center For Climate/Ocean Resources Study
•Thomas P. Sheahan, Ph.D, Western Technologies, Inc.
•Alan Simmons, Author, The Resilient Earth
•Roy N. Spencer, Ph.D, University Of Alabama-Huntsville
•Arlin Super, Ph.D, Retired Research Meteorologist, U.S. Dept. Of Reclamation
•George H. Taylor,MS, Applied Climate Services
•Eduardo P. Tonni, Ph.D, Museo De La Plata (Argentina)
•Ralf D. Tscheuschner, Ph.D
•Dr. Anton Uriarte,Ph.D, Universidad Del Pais Vasco
•Brian Valentine, Ph.D, U.S. Department Of Energy
•Gosta Walin, Ph.D, University Of Gothenburg (emeritus)
•Gerd-Rainer Weber,Ph.D, Reviewer, Intergovernmenal Panel On Climate Change
•Forese-Carlo Wezel, Ph.D, Urbino University
•Edward T. Wimberley, Ph.D, Florida Gulf Coast University
•Miklos Zagoni,Ph.D Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change
•Antonio Zichichi,Ph.D President, World Federation Of Scientists


Link to original add:

http://www.cato.org/special/climatechange/cato_climate.pdf
 
I think that in the Old Testament it was said the World would not be destroyed by flood again.


Paul

..Ah well that is one thing that will not happen then...!...So we won't be under 25 meters of water ( I quote...)
 
There are only two ways in which carbon emissions will be reduced in my view:

1) Reduce the world population to a fraction of what it is now
2) Develop the technology to have zero emissions

1 is not going to happen and more than likely we will see a 50% increase in the world population which will further increase carbon emissions by a huge amount.

2 is the only answer and all governments should focus entirely on this. I really do believe that if scientists and engineers were tasked with this they would achieve it. With the right funding, sharing of knowledge and global cooperation it could be achieved very quickly.

Tax is definitely not the answer as it cannot prevent an increase in emissions caused by increasing world populations and just means that the rich will continue in the same way as they always have done.

The only reason why there is not a focus on technology to achieve this is that business and powerful lobby groups don't want it.


Paul

Agreed that ever increasing population is a disaster. And that the only solutions will require a vast amount of research and development and capital expenditure.

But I would also argue that pollution must be paid for and that money must go to solving the problem. The cost of environmental damage has until now largely been unaccounted for and the culprits have largely had a free lunch. This has got to stop.

Just as there is no inalienable human right to throw your garbage out into the street and you do have to pay for council services to clean up your pollution, so there is no right to spew forth CO2 pollution into the atmosphere and the polluters must pay for the solution. There is no doubt that there are many ways of doing this and IMHO carbon trading schemes are not the best option. However the principle must be implemented.

It must become too expensive to pollute so that the only economically viable course is to seek alternate technologies.

A lot of this is going to have to be government funded and that has got to be paid for somehow. A tax on carbon looks pretty logical way to do that.
 
It is quite informative to look at the southern hemisphere summer as the El Nino begins to cut in. It is believed that El Nino's opposite - La Nina - is a significant factor in 2007 being one of the coolest years in the last decade leading to some fools to claim global cooling was upon us. The attached map shows amount by which the mean maximum temperatures for November exceeded the 1961-1990 average. For most of SE Australia, this was at least 4C. For some it was 6C+. There is no denying that these are BIG figures
 

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I say we should ban motor sports and any competitive sports which involve large amounts of pollution through travel- world cup, olympics etc. All garbage anyway.

And if these newspapers are so into saving the planet, maybe they could stop chopping down trees to spread the word.
 
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I say we should ban motor sports and any competitive sports which involve large amounts of pollution through travel- world cup, olympics etc. All garbage anyway.

Aviation is responsible for around 1% of emissions. would have a negligible effect even if we completely phased out aeroplanes.

Banning meat would probably allow us to meet any and all emissions targets for the foreseeable future with or without aviation, oil, global transport etc.
 
Aviation is responsible for around 1% of emissions. would have a negligible effect even if we completely phased out aeroplanes.

Banning meat would probably allow us to meet any and all emissions targets for the foreseeable future with or without aviation, oil, global transport etc.

hm....these people who say we should all become vegetarians to "save the planet" should perhaps consider what to do about
- The sacred cows of the Hindus in India, who may be vegetarian but won't want you to slaughter their cows
- The many people who are already vegetarian but are not vegan, and depend on dairy cattle for their milk and cheese, an important part of their protein (and fat), and also on chickens for their eggs (ditto).

Unless you want us all to become vegans as well; much more difficult. Even George Monbiot has said he couldn't stay healthy on a vegan diet:
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/04/15/the-pleasures-of-the-flesh/

As for Australian numbers, what numbers do you actually believe?
Well it seems that some people will believe any old numbers when it comes to warming, but say that only "fools" believe numbers that indicate cooling:

http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2009/12/8/willis-says-hes-found-it.html
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/the-smoking-gun-at-darwin-zero/
 
Unless you want us all to become vegans as well; much more difficult. Even George Monbiot has said he couldn't stay healthy on a vegan diet:

Well if Monbiot says it, it must be true!!

Hey I don't give a f**k. Just trying to put the 'aviation is the devil' crowd in their place.

The simple fact is that if global warming is caused by human activity, then it is our Western lifestyle that causes it. No amount of conspiracy theories or oil company special interests can negate that.

One of my martial arts instructors is an absolute global warming nut. He spends endless hours* in training ranting on about global warming this, conspiracy that etc. etc. telling us how everyone's greed and arrogance is destroying the planet. The simple fact remains that he lives 5 mins walk from a train station that will get him into London for classes within the hour, and yet he chooses to drive because he's too f**king arrogant to get the train! Doesn't like waiting around on platforms.

*(I really mean this - I trained with him for 10 years, and did not have a single lesson where he did not bring it up. He tried to get a book published, and had to re-write his manuscript about 20 times because he kept trying to find more inventive ways to insert global warming arguments into it. He also was interviewed about his martial art on tv, and the interview was cut because he kept ranting about global warming during it!! He's nuts!)
 
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Well, CO2 is not "pollution" - it is a trace gas that is vital for virtually all life on earth. It is a very minor greenhouse gas compared to say, water vapour, which accounts for the vast majority of the greenhouse effect. The relationship between CO2 and the warming effect of CO2 is logarithmic not linear - a doubling of the atmospheric concentration of CO2 does not lead to a doubling of the warming effect of CO2.

Leaving these CO2 facts aside, I always feel slightly disturbed when anyone brings up the "too many people" argument. Perhaps it is the astonishing lack of reason behind the argument - the greatest resource on earth is not oil or any other substance, it is man.

Perhaps it is the faint whiff of leftist patrician racism (the kind that hangs around the US Democrats, the sort of thing that Barbara Boxer specialises in - "What do you mean you disagree? Another black man has just told me that he agrees!" etc etc).

After all, which populations are actually increasing? Is it the death-bed demographic states of the EU, many of whose native populations are reproducing at far below replacement rate? Or the Japanese? Or American WASPs? No, when people talk about overpopulation, and the responsibility not to overburden the planet with humans, they are talking about brown humans. Brown humans having too many babies and, thanks to advances in medicine, farming and other areas, as well as increasing global capitalism, living a bit too long as well.

This is vile and disgusting. A key part of the AGW worldview (although one that is rarely explicitly stated) is one that looks with horror on the prospect of billions in the third world starting to enjoy something approaching Western standards of living.

It also makes very little sense. Population growth is slowing everywhere (and as noted above, in some areas it is already well into reverse - look at the birth rates for the inigenous populations of Russia, Japan, Spain and Italy, for example). This applies across the world and is one of the reasons that population forecasts are continually being revised downwards. Not so long ago it was 12 billion - now it is 9. This is because lower birth rates go hand in hand with greater prosperity.

But these are not the worst things about it. Illogical, racist, unpleasant, nonsensical - these things are objectionable and ridiculous, but not actually dangerous. However, the tyranny implicit in population control most certainly is dangerous.

People are beginning to speak thus of, for example, the One Child policy: "Well, you know, it does help to limit CO2 emissions". As would mass murder, a natural and almost unavoidable consequence of that policy.

If you are personally concerned about overpopulation, limit your own procreation. If this is insufficient for you, there is at least one further step you can take. But please don't advocate a policy that is to the great detriment of the poorest members of the human race.
 
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