The end of the EU

[Pat494]

The EU is not evolving and improving. The original makers were either extra stupid and/or the politicians have ruined it. They blame each other. I mean how can 27 nations possibly work on a unanimous vote system !! A 10 year old can see that much !

 

[Pat494]

The EU is not evolving and improving. The original makers were either extra stupid and/or the politicians have ruined it. They blame each other. I mean how can 27 nations possibly work on a unanimous vote system !! A 10 year old can see that much !

As soon as the 27 countries see that they can horse-trade - their vote for something in return, the whole mess gets even worse. A 2/3 rd majority vote should be enough and even that is open to abuse.

 

[Atilla]

As soon as the 27 countries see that they can horse-trade - their vote for something in return, the whole mess gets even worse. A 2/3 rd majority vote should be enough and even that is open to abuse.

Those votes not the same size are they?

They need proportional representation. :idea:

 

[Pat494]

Those votes not the same size are they?

They need proportional representation. :idea:

1 country 1 vote as far as I know. You don't expect the Brussell's sprouts to ever do the sensible thing do you ?

Those geniuses have only just got their heads around the possibility of one of the Eurozone countries leaving. Only about a year after everyone else ! But still better late than never I suppose.
To think they get paid h-u-g-e salaries !! dear oh dear

 

[Pat494]

It's a big wake up call to democracies around the world.
Joe Public just isn't going to vote in any party with austerity measures in its manifesto. So Greece turns into a financial "black hole" draining the eurozone/EU or leaves, bringing down Italy etc in a domino effect !

Half baked politicians, who thought they could just spend and spend, have got a rude message as to their worth. This crisis should never have happened.

Politically neutral technocrats are going to replace them in many more countries before this crisis is over imho.

 

[Atilla]

It's a big wake up call to democracies around the world.
Joe Public just isn't going to vote in any party with austerity measures in its manifesto. So Greece turns into a financial "black hole" draining the eurozone/EU or leaves, bringing down Italy etc in a domino effect !

Half baked politicians, who thought they could just spend and spend, have got a rude message as to their worth. This crisis should never have happened.

Politically neutral technocrats are going to replace them in many more countries before this crisis is over imho.

I do not see the end of the EU but an evolution. In fact I see Germany becoming stronger and better than ever before.

Germany says to Greece we would like you to stay in Euro but understand if you don't. Thank you.
1. If Greece leaves - good for Euro and good for Greece
2. If Greece stays - good for Euro and 50/50 for Greece if good or bad I'm not sure

Germany says to France we would like you to stay in Euro and continue with out strong partnership. If you like to borrow more by all means do so but you are big enough to pay for your ways.
1. France spends more - good for Euro and France
2. France spends less - good for Euro and bad for France
3. France leaves Euro - good for Euro and 50/50 for France if good or bad I'm not sure.


Germany benefits from the Euro either way if countries leave or stay. Manufacturing power house with high quality products a world class act.

I admire the Germans. Rock steady crew comes to mind. Steady as she goes...

 

[Pat494]

The Greek farce is set to continue for some time yet.

One can't help wondering if bailing them out at all was a good idea ?

They ( mainly the politicians ) are largely responsible for their own situation and so they should suffer the consequencies. But they could shoulder the burden more fairly though. And take note of who stays and who flees for future reference as to status.

A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. The whole eurozone is in danger of being dragged under by their weakest member.

The politically correct/caring members may well live to regret offering Greece such generous bailout terms. Terms that they can't cope with either. Perhaps they should have cut the rope and let them sink !!

 

[TheBramble]

I don’t see a Greece final default, with or without exit, bringing down the entire EU.

The ECB could in theory pour unlimited liquidity into Greek banks to handle the run and limit the fallout. This would eventually be a hit on EU tax-payers and cause inflation to rise in the EU by an additional 2% above current estimates given the sort of moolah required.

Would they do that? More likely than not. Could they do that (constitutionally/legally)? LOL. What’s that got to do with anything?

An increase in inflation in the EU is a good thing. Schäuble and Wiedmann profess otherwise publicly but privately, they know Germany has to endure a lot more pain than anyone else because they’ve got more toys than anyone else. As long as they don’t go all Weimar on us and dig their heels in, it could work out.

The ECB taking this action would only delay not prevent the inevitable, but would do so with private debt and foreign sovereign creditors more equitably managed than would be the case. It will reflect on the EU as a whole and making that sacrifice will improve investor confidence in the EU, not the reverse.

If the ECB do not dive in then Greece will dump sooner rather than later and the fallout will be slightly, though not massively worse for the EU as a whole. They will lose the opportunity to underpin foreign sovereign confidence mentioned above and that, longer term, is likely to be the issue that swings their decision to pour more funds in on the certain knowledge they’ll get none of it back.

Whichever route Greece ends up being taken down, for the Greeks, the situation will be almost identical. Austerity. But when you’re at the bottom of the heap with nowhere to go and no one to borrow from, there are certain advantages. Psychologically it’s probably what’s need to shake the general populace up to realise what’s really required and hopefully build a resolve and competiveness along with a more sustainable ethos both public and political in order to bring them back to life. Financially it’ll be drawing a line under the Titanic and starting on a fresh page. Politically they need to trust their politicos (to the same extent any of us trust our politics) in that they can at least expect them to do an averagely competent job of running the country while keeping their fingers out of the till. Which points more towards a technocratic than democratic ideal.

 

[Pat494]

Let's hope the Greeks don't get fooled by those clots in Brussels, who have their own agenda to keep the Greeks in the eurozone.

Once clear of the 4th Reich( sorry EU ) and they could value the drachma at a rate that they can cope with.

 

[TheBramble]

Let's hope the Greeks don't get fooled by those clots in Brussels, who have their own agenda to keep the Greeks in the eurozone.

Once clear of the 4th Reich( sorry EU ) and they could value the drachma at a rate that they can cope with.

Totally agree.

Autonomy and total self-determination, even chaotic Mediterranean style, is a far better prescription for sustainable growth and a general ethos of happiness and national resolve than Teutonic perfection on the basis of all do and no say.

 

[Pat494]

The Strasburg Court of human Rights is meddling again and trying to demote national decisions with their nonsense, as usual.
Criminals and there are lots of them will band togethor to get all sorts of perks - like all "screws " should wear female attire !!, longer hours outside the jails for various activities etc.

No no they must forego the benefits of being honest and reasonably ok.
I see in Norway a few years on a holiday island is all the punishment they can expect.

 

[Atilla]

The Strasburg Court of human Rights is meddling again and trying to demote national decisions with their nonsense, as usual.
Criminals and there are lots of them will band togethor to get all sorts of perks - like all "screws " should wear female attire !!, longer hours outside the jails for various activities etc.

No no they must forego the benefits of being honest and reasonably ok.
I see in Norway a few years on a holiday island is all the punishment they can expect.

EU summit: Draghi calls for ‘courageous leap’ | euronews, world news

Interesting stuff and also - Spain's PM Rajoi now asking for ECB help having already stated that Spain is too big to be bailed out.

I also like this heading... EU leaders back Greece while planning for its euro exit.


I'm hearing some really interesting debates in the background guys. Big news suppositions that can really turn the markets - in Germany's favour. :smart:

Tread carefully re: EURUSD I'm guessing some upside coming round the corner soon. It could be rumour but who knows...

 

[Pat494]

OK you lemmings

European Central Bank President, Mario Draghi also did his best to keep the euro ship afloat, calling on governments to take a “courageous leap of political imagination”



Right over the cliff ?

Surely the national character and culture is worth more than mere financial/political fashion.
Eurobabble land - yuk !!
If they think they can impose the Prussian/Anglo - Saxon work ethic etc. I think they may be mistaken.

 

[Atilla]

Hi guys,

This one has legs imho.

Merkel May Be Persuaded on Euro Debt-Sharing Compromise - Bloomberg

Who would have guessed - bonds backed by Gold.

Gold Reserves
The fund, backed by euro member states’ gold reserves, would be worth 2.3 trillion euros ($2.9 trillion). Under the system, participating countries would be able to transfer debt exceeding the 60 percent threshold into the fund for which participating member countries are “jointly and severally liable,” according to the council’s paper. Limited to 25 years, it would be accompanied by a pledge by states to anchor debt limits in their constitutions and commit to economic reforms.

Watch this space... beware on Euro shorts I'd say

 

[counter_violent]

European Debt Crisis Explained - YouTube!

 

[Pat494]

The more educated Germans are beginning to realize that trying to hold Greece etc. in the eurocrap land is wasting most of their hard earned lolly.

I can't see the Latins working flat out in a factory enviroment either.

The EU is a worthless system. Uncompetitive and corrupt.

It's DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED !!!

Reform the EU and fine Prodi, Trichet etc.

 

[Splitlink]

What hard earned lolly?

Pat, if the Euro goes down, everyone else, outside, will have a hard time because of it. Financial stability, everywhere, is what is needed now

I'm not saying that it will, or will not. we are past that point. Just wait and see but Europe is no more corrupt than anywhere else.

 

[Pat494]

What hard earned lolly?

They have had trade surpluses for years unlike most, surely

Pat, if the Euro goes down, everyone else, outside, will have a hard time because of it. Financial stability, everywhere, is what is needed now


The too big to fail argument has its points but hardly a reason to continue in the same old way surely ?


I'm not saying that it will, or will not. we are past that point. Just wait and see but Europe is no more corrupt than anywhere else.

A bit like the Catholic church ? One doesn't really want to look under the outer surface for what one would likely find.

 

[Splitlink]

Pat, at this stage of the game what way do you suggest we follow? We go from day to day and hope that we have picked the right party and leader to get us on the right road. God knows, he has been nagging Zapatero long enough, the same as Cameron was at GB.

I believe that this will resolve itself in another couple of months and whatever you or I think does not come into the scheme of things.

The die was cast, as far as the Euro is concerned, many years ago. Whichever way Greece jumps will be another gamble.

 

[Pat494]

Pat, at this stage of the game what way do you suggest we follow? We go from day to day and hope that we have picked the right party and leader to get us on the right road. God knows, he has been nagging Zapatero long enough, the same as Cameron was at GB.

I believe that this will resolve itself in another couple of months and whatever you or I think does not come into the scheme of things.

The die was cast, as far as the Euro is concerned, many years ago. Whichever way Greece jumps will be another gamble.

Fingers crossed and 2 Hail Marys then ?

They have ruined Europe