Should the Scotland vote worry anyone ?

[shugster]

Au contraire mon'ami - according to figures published by the Institute of Fiscal Studies, total public spending was around 11 per cent higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole. Official figures suggest Scotland spent £62 bn but raised just £45 bn — an annual subsidy from the English taxpayer of at least £17 bn. In addition, almost one in three Scots workers had a taxpayer-funded job...


Which thus being an autonomous country you would... so what argument there?


I'm not "making things personal", just pointing out that English money is propping up the most welfare, drink and drug-addicted nation in Europe. Feel free to drop me a tax-refund post-independence.

It is an accepted fact that every year for 30 years Scotland has generated more tax revenue per head for the UK treasury than the rest of the UK. The latest figures taken from the Government Expenditure and Revenue Report Scotland (GERS) state that Scotland generated £800 more in tax per person than the UK average. Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off than the UK over the past 5 years.

Put simply, when the UK runs a surplus Scotland contributes more to the surplus, and when the UK runs a deficit Scotland has to pay more of the debt back than it is responsible for. It’s a “lose/lose” situation for Scottish tax payers and especially for those in need of support from the state.

Read the rest here: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/

 

[darktone]

I'm NOT the person to convince ANYONE of how to vote or what to vote on. I'm a humble hypnotherapist/psychotherapist/neuro linguistic programmer/trader. I know 'how' the brain works but when it comes to t.v that fiction is beyond even my imagination! I'm pritty sure the Scots will make the right decision whatever the outcome be. I have two kids so I hope things will be better for them on a personal level and on a bigger scale things are better for the whole of Scotland.

VOTE YES VOTE YES

You understand that this separates you from around 99% of the folks that post here then.

 

[Pat Riley]

It is an accepted fact that every year for 30 years Scotland has generated more tax revenue per head for the UK treasury than the rest of the UK. The latest figures taken from the Government Expenditure and Revenue Report Scotland (GERS) state that Scotland generated £800 more in tax per person than the UK average. Scotland would have been £8.3 billion better off than the UK over the past 5 years.

Put simply, when the UK runs a surplus Scotland contributes more to the surplus, and when the UK runs a deficit Scotland has to pay more of the debt back than it is responsible for. It’s a “lose/lose” situation for Scottish tax payers and especially for those in need of support from the state.

Read the rest here: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-does-scotlands-wealth-go/

Well now, on that basis, there's a rationale for Surrey and Berkshire going for independence too.

 

[Pat Riley]

For shugster and anyone else touting the positives for a YES vote. What exactly is it you think you’re going to get with independence? I can tell ya from experience, you won’t, not none of it. You want decisions made for Scotland, made in Scotland, by Scottish politicians. Now why would having Scottish politicians making decisions for you be any better than English politicians or bureaucrats in Brussels doing it? You’ll still be about as far from genuine democracy as every other citizen of a western democratic nation. I speak as a born again Celt living in the ROI and only ever sit down to trade after smearing meself with a large dollop of woad, but here’s what I think it might look like to the typical English man in the street.

Scotland depends on the UK for around 300 years as a net beneficiary from the commonwealth of the union. It’s basically all take take take. For the last few decades they have grudgingly given a smidgen back of all that which they have taken and then decide, based on their current economic situation, that they can tell the union to go feck itself as they don’t need them anymore and they’ll be better off by themselves. They want to keep the good bits (the currency, free borders, free trade, membership of EU, membership of NATO), but they don’t want any of the bad stuff (their share of national debt, new protocols for passage of materials, money and peoples). To many of the English it must seem like the ungrateful wife who stiffs her decent and unsuspecting husband for a total unentitled and unearned swinging divorce settlement or the uppity starlet who dumps the manager who got her where she is today.

The fact of the matter regardless of cultural hyperbole is that most Scots planning on voting YES will do so on the basis of the last few decades, quite understandably forgetting what it was like before NSO. They’ll also be possibly quite ignorant of the facts that a few others have outlined on this thread, that the Scots as a people and Scotland as a geographical entity are relatively unhealthy, atypically unemployable, remarkably deficient in natural resources. It and they are also inadequately catered for on infrastructure, educational, healthcare and pension fronts. All of which will come home to roost a lot sooner than the oil running out.

The most optimistic estimates have Scotland nose-diving into a downward spiral within a decade or two of independence. By then, those short-term self serving politiicans who put them there will be long gone and the rest of the union will find it tough to find a place in the hearts, let alone their wallets, to lend the then desperately needed helping hand.

None of any of the above has much chance of happening as the majority of Scots are all too well aware of the situation, and those that are missing the facts are luckily in a minority.

 

[Pat494]

I think it would be worth considering Scotland's situation before The Union.
Was it prosperous - no
Was it peaceful - no. The clans were fighting for supremacy
How about the leadership of James V1 and the later Stuarts - hopeless
Divided as to religion - still are
Climate - much the same, rain and more rain.
Any other notable points ? - can't think of any.

 

[Splitlink]

Well, about that last sentence. If any of you guys have the vote, you'd better be out there on voting day because the opinion poll between "yes" and "no" has closed alarminbgly to about 3 points, so I see on Spanish tv.

We have a brand new party, clled Podemos" ( meaning, "We can", after Obama's cry, taken from ML King) This party, from almost nothing, has polled into 3rd place in a few, short months and líes a few porcentage points from the two main parties.

Unemployment and poverty make the man in the street go for change and most of them don't read this thread!

 

[shugster]

For shugster and anyone else touting the positives for a YES vote. What exactly is it you think you’re going to get with independence? I can tell ya from experience, you won’t, not none of it. You want decisions made for Scotland, made in Scotland, by Scottish politicians. Now why would having Scottish politicians making decisions for you be any better than English politicians or bureaucrats in Brussels doing it? You’ll still be about as far from genuine democracy as every other citizen of a western democratic nation. I speak as a born again Celt living in the ROI and only ever sit down to trade after smearing meself with a large dollop of woad, but here’s what I think it might look like to the typical English man in the street.

Scotland depends on the UK for around 300 years as a net beneficiary from the commonwealth of the union. It’s basically all take take take. For the last few decades they have grudgingly given a smidgen back of all that which they have taken and then decide, based on their current economic situation, that they can tell the union to go feck itself as they don’t need them anymore and they’ll be better off by themselves. They want to keep the good bits (the currency, free borders, free trade, membership of EU, membership of NATO), but they don’t want any of the bad stuff (their share of national debt, new protocols for passage of materials, money and peoples). To many of the English it must seem like the ungrateful wife who stiffs her decent and unsuspecting husband for a total unentitled and unearned swinging divorce settlement or the uppity starlet who dumps the manager who got her where she is today.

The fact of the matter regardless of cultural hyperbole is that most Scots planning on voting YES will do so on the basis of the last few decades, quite understandably forgetting what it was like before NSO. They’ll also be possibly quite ignorant of the facts that a few others have outlined on this thread, that the Scots as a people and Scotland as a geographical entity are relatively unhealthy, atypically unemployable, remarkably deficient in natural resources. It and they are also inadequately catered for on infrastructure, educational, healthcare and pension fronts. All of which will come home to roost a lot sooner than the oil running out.

The most optimistic estimates have Scotland nose-diving into a downward spiral within a decade or two of independence. By then, those short-term self serving politiicans who put them there will be long gone and the rest of the union will find it tough to find a place in the hearts, let alone their wallets, to lend the then desperately needed helping hand.

None of any of the above has much chance of happening as the majority of Scots are all too well aware of the situation, and those that are missing the facts are luckily in a minority.

For pat riley touting for the no votes

Well said!

pity its not well thought out

Just for clarification: I'm not touting i'm just giving an opinion based on my own observation as you are, i have made it clear if you went to the bother of reading my posts i have stated clear enough for a 5 year old to understand i respect everyone's decisions even yours, everyone is entitled to there opinion whether it be right or wrong after all we can only form beliefs on our own representations we have formed using deletion distortion and generalizations based on fabrications from memory clusters or bits and bobs of others opinions, I can only say this: markets are reality your thoughts about reality are just that, they are thoughts, thoughts are constructions based of representations, representations are constructions, constructions are not reality they are constructed. deletion, distortion and generalizations are constructions, every thought you have is construction even your beliefs so you have constructed ideas and beliefs different to mine about this yes or no vote that's all. everything else you mention haven't happened yet you have mentioned so unless you have opened some fortune cookies or done some psychic online course how the hell do you know whats going to happen down the road?

The only fortune teller here is you not me

 

[shugster]

Just an observation: if the market changed direction last time it hit 17 thousand, does that mean it will 100% change direction next time it hits 17 thousand? of course not! It might, it might not, it might bounce a small amounts of points but like the markets can we really make informed decisions on based on previous experience? How can we 'know' for certain what will or will not happen?

As market traders all we can go by is best guess that's all and best guess isn't good enough as you will be aware, we have to protect our accounts encase we get it wrong as well. Its the same as this yes or no vote we are all guessing but because its a gamble does that mean we don't trade? no we take the gamble because we know we have a backup plan if it goes pair shaped!

Look into the backup plan and make your decision

 

[shugster]

Another point I want to mention is this: a bookies knocks your door and gives you two choices, you 'have' to pick one. any of these choices can lead anywhere, you could be better off or worse off as a consequence of your decision. You didn't go to the bookies, your not a gambler but your forced to make a decision even if you didn't want to that will effect the rest of your life and your kids life's, that's the predicament 90% of Scots are in. We didn't think this thing up, we were plodding along doing the best we can with what we have. Just like the war, we didn't want dragged into that and who's great idea was that? weapons of mass destruction ye right! don't believe everything you see on t.v or read in news papers!

 

[Pat Riley]

For pat riley touting for the no votes

Well said!

pity its not well thought out

Just for clarification: I'm not touting i'm just giving an opinion based on my own observation as you are, i have made it clear if you went to the bother of reading my posts i have stated clear enough for a 5 year old to understand i respect everyone's decisions even yours, everyone is entitled to there opinion whether it be right or wrong after all we can only form beliefs on our own representations we have formed using deletion distortion and generalizations based on fabrications from memory clusters or bits and bobs of others opinions, I can only say this: markets are reality your thoughts about reality are just that, they are thoughts, thoughts are constructions based of representations, representations are constructions, constructions are not reality they are constructed. deletion, distortion and generalizations are constructions, every thought you have is construction even your beliefs so you have constructed ideas and beliefs different to mine about this yes or no vote that's all. everything else you mention haven't happened yet you have mentioned so unless you have opened some fortune cookies or done some psychic online course how the hell do you know whats going to happen down the road?

The only fortune teller here is you not me

Ay what? I have no idea what ya talking about. I'm a objective observer of these events and it'll have no bearing on me whatsoever regardless of the outcome. For a chap who knows how the human brain works you seem, if you'll allow an layman's observation, exceeding tightly wound. But look on the bright side, even if the vote doesn't go the way you want I believe you chaps do things with reframing which'll make it all right anyhow. While we're on the subject of tentative grasps on reality, I'm going to settle down with a bottle tonight and watch Brayfart again. An Australian actor with US citizenship playing a Scot who was in historical fact a Welsh mercenary. At least the English come out lookin bad again which is always a crowd pleaser. Somethin for everyone there I think.

 

[shugster]

exceeding tightly wound lol

I love your description of me unfortunately your psychic abilities have let you down again, you might want to try the cards you might get better results than the tea leaves!

just shows me how good your objective observer skills really are.

Nothing wrong with re-framing that's a great ability to have!

If you wan't to make more sense then i would suggest leaving out the bottle!

 

[darktone]

For shugster and anyone else touting the positives for a YES vote. What exactly is it you think you’re going to get with independence?

Well, they could create their own currency, via their own CB, debt free. The new monies could be brought in gradually, circulate alongside the existing so as to ease the transition.
Management of the new money could be handled by an independent board.
New money can be created directly by funding infrastructure, health, paying down debt, etc etc etc.
Money could be removed/destroyed via the tax loop.
The person in the chair would have avoid all the likely assassination attempts (character, propaganda, financial, bullet). But, if they did well, the argument for the rest of the world to follow their example would be weak.

 

[darktone]

I can only say this: markets are reality your thoughts about reality are just that

Ooo, i might have to borrow that sometime! Very nice.

For a chap who knows how the human brain works you seem, if you'll allow an layman's observation, exceeding tightly wound.

I dunno, is doing well thus far, imo.

 

[shugster]

Ooo, i might have to borrow that sometime! Very nice.


I dunno, is doing well thus far, imo.

I have said my thoughts out loud, i have made it very clear that i'm not a good spokesman on the topic of yes or no, i have said that from the beginning. I have said also i don't know all the so called facts in this case, i have also made it clear i'm not trying to change peoples beliefs on there decisions and also made it clear it would be foolish to do so even if you think you know everything about it. I have also made it clear no one really knows what will or won't happen so tell me this, can you really be sure or positive what will or will not happen? You have an opinion just like me but its an opinion nothing else, its not got solid foundations even if you think it has.

I'm closer to reality than you because i see whats happening around me i don't need to see it on t.v or listen to it on radio to form my opinions.

I think the people trying to promote rather than express personal opinions by use of constructions based on beliefs or false beliefs should take a step back and let people directly effected by it make there own decisions. the yes vote is creeping up, only 6 votes now.

Its very clear from this my thoughts are equal to a lot of other peoples thoughts on this matter for whatever there reasons. Until you have lived in Scotland as long or longer than i have and saw with your own eyes what i'm seeing on a daily basis how the hell can you have a clear mind on the issue? Seeing something from a distance is not the same as seeing it up close and personal. If you want i'll post you out a good telescope, that might give you a closer view to whats happening all around me. :clap:

 

[tar]

shugster

Whats your prediction for the voter turnout ? Is everyone interested in participating ?

 

[Pat Riley]

As I said above, none of my business and doesn't impact me one way or the other, just interested in the objective facts.

But shugster, you've inadvertently made a grand case for the rest of us to support independence.

Good luck to you with your voting.

 

[shugster]

There is a lot of people un-decided which doesn't surprise me in the slightest, i don't make predictions my best guess would be that its going to be close, i have no idea how this thing will turn out with a yes or no vote, it will prove one thing though, a lot of people aren't very happy about the situation there in now and about the way things are going.

 

[darktone]

I have said my thoughts out loud, i have made it very clear that i'm not a good spokesman on the topic of yes or no, i have said that from the beginning. I have said also i don't know all the so called facts in this case, i have also made it clear i'm not trying to change peoples beliefs on there decisions and also made it clear it would be foolish to do so even if you think you know everything about it. I have also made it clear no one really knows what will or won't happen so tell me this, can you really be sure or positive what will or will not happen? You have an opinion just like me but its an opinion nothing else, its not got solid foundations even if you think it has.

I'm closer to reality than you because i see whats happening around me i don't need to see it on t.v or listen to it on radio to form my opinions.

I think the people trying to promote rather than express personal opinions by use of constructions based on beliefs or false beliefs should take a step back and let people directly effected by it make there own decisions. the yes vote is creeping up, only 6 votes now.

Its very clear from this my thoughts are equal to a lot of other peoples thoughts on this matter for whatever there reasons. Until you have lived in Scotland as long or longer than i have and saw with your own eyes what i'm seeing on a daily basis how the hell can you have a clear mind on the issue? Seeing something from a distance is not the same as seeing it up close and personal. If you want i'll post you out a good telescope, that might give you a closer view to whats happening all around me. :clap:

Its that directed at me or the other mojos?

 

[tar]

There is a lot of people un-decided which doesn't surprise me in the slightest, i don't make predictions my best guess would be that its going to be close, i have no idea how this thing will turn out with a yes or no vote, it will prove one thing though, a lot of people aren't very happy about the situation there in now and about the way things are going.

No i meant from your own observations how many are going to participate 50% , 80% ... ?

 

[shugster]

The way it is at this point in time is over 100 applicants applying for 1 job that pays **** wages but this David Cameron is giving them an ultimatum with a no win situation. Get a job or your benefits are getting stopped. What is these people to do? go out and rob at knife point to get food? but wait a second the police are on cutbacks there is only 3 cops to deal with all the phone calls and for the poor person that got stabbed they have to wait 4 hours in hospital waiting to get took. If your house goes on fire you be as well forgetting it because the cutbacks stretched to the firemen as well. Oh wait if someone falls in the river Clyde there had it as well because they shut the coast guard down as well. And whats the reason for these cutbacks? you tell me!