short selling is unpatriotic
- Thread starter Loada Dosh
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It is the false selling that drives the market down
This may be true in the very short term (1-2 days), but to hold the price of anything down for a consistant period of time requires a complete change in the mentality of the stock holders - ie to want to sell it to get out.
This may be true in the very short term (1-2 days), but to hold the price of anything down for a consistant period of time requires a complete change in the mentality of the stock holders - ie to want to sell it to get out.
It is my intention to add my full support to the ever growing campaign for the banning of short selling and will be sending letters to every MP in the UK setting out the numerous arguments against short selling and listing the numerous dangers and damage that short selling causes. Top of my list will be the inequitable practice induced by short selling. I am being robbed because the short sellers are taking my property for their gain, and as a long-term investor I have no options or rights and can gain nothing from a short sellers activities.
Short selling is an act of theft and should be banned!
If the govt ban shortselling, then your 'investments' will be dead in the water from the moment it happens.
The stock market at all levels of investment is about speculation, remove the speculation and you remove the interest in investment.
What you would be doing is removing the right of someone to have a contrary opinion because it doesn't agree with yours.
Also, consider the swings in pricing. If there are no speculators adding liquidity to the stock, what happens when it produces good news? - the price doubles, triples? - Conversely, what happens if the company releases bad news (if you are a TRK shareholder you should know all about that) - the price halves, or more as those that are holding the stock run for the exits.
I don't think you have even considered the implications.
BTW FSA have investigated short selling - as have the financial bodies in many countries - all have come to the final decision not to ban it due to the effects I have mentioned above (from memory - and it will probably be wrong - someone like Malaysia tried to ban shorting last year, or 2002 -the market just stopped operating overnight.)
Short selling is an act of theft and should be banned!
If the govt ban shortselling, then your 'investments' will be dead in the water from the moment it happens.
The stock market at all levels of investment is about speculation, remove the speculation and you remove the interest in investment.
What you would be doing is removing the right of someone to have a contrary opinion because it doesn't agree with yours.
Also, consider the swings in pricing. If there are no speculators adding liquidity to the stock, what happens when it produces good news? - the price doubles, triples? - Conversely, what happens if the company releases bad news (if you are a TRK shareholder you should know all about that) - the price halves, or more as those that are holding the stock run for the exits.
I don't think you have even considered the implications.
BTW FSA have investigated short selling - as have the financial bodies in many countries - all have come to the final decision not to ban it due to the effects I have mentioned above (from memory - and it will probably be wrong - someone like Malaysia tried to ban shorting last year, or 2002 -the market just stopped operating overnight.)
Shorting is part of the game. Of course those trying to short the markets over the last 9 months or so would have been in trouble. I take it you would derive satisfaction from that ?
Its just the same as going long and watching the price fall. I guess you think thats unfair ?
The market needs longs and shorts to function properly. It doesn't work and never has just following the long positions. If we were all 'long' then the Ftse would be around the 75000 mark and soaring. As you can see it doesn't and can't do that.
I believe you are either new or mis informed..not sure yet.
Jane
Its just the same as going long and watching the price fall. I guess you think thats unfair ?
The market needs longs and shorts to function properly. It doesn't work and never has just following the long positions. If we were all 'long' then the Ftse would be around the 75000 mark and soaring. As you can see it doesn't and can't do that.
I believe you are either new or mis informed..not sure yet.
Jane
TBS
echoes of Marconi here
some 'investors' just don't accept that the little warning on the side of the packet ('shares can go down in value as well as up') really does mean that shares can go down in value.
In the example given, purchased at £2.00 and then fallen to 50 p, where was the stop-loss? where was the trade plan?
Those that do not understand what they are doing or the market they are trading should get the hell out before they lose their shirts.
Shorting is a valid and acceptable practise in many businesses. Airlines regularily oversell seats on planes - they are effectively short the market in seats and rely on passengers failing to turn up. Motor dealers will order a car for you from the importer/manufacturer - at the point of sale they are short the car until it is delivered to them. Shorting is a term used to describe the pre-selling of an item you intend to purchase. It makes no difference whether the item is a share, an index future, a car, an airline seat or a kitchen sink.
Those that cannot or will not understand this business will lose money. Writing to MPs, the Queen or the Tooth Fairy will not change the fact that if you are not prepared to learn the business of investing and properly apply the lessons learnt then you will lose money.
I would strongly suggest those that feel that shorting is morally wrong take up a different hobby/profession whilst they still have some money left.
echoes of Marconi here
some 'investors' just don't accept that the little warning on the side of the packet ('shares can go down in value as well as up') really does mean that shares can go down in value.
In the example given, purchased at £2.00 and then fallen to 50 p, where was the stop-loss? where was the trade plan?
Those that do not understand what they are doing or the market they are trading should get the hell out before they lose their shirts.
Shorting is a valid and acceptable practise in many businesses. Airlines regularily oversell seats on planes - they are effectively short the market in seats and rely on passengers failing to turn up. Motor dealers will order a car for you from the importer/manufacturer - at the point of sale they are short the car until it is delivered to them. Shorting is a term used to describe the pre-selling of an item you intend to purchase. It makes no difference whether the item is a share, an index future, a car, an airline seat or a kitchen sink.
Those that cannot or will not understand this business will lose money. Writing to MPs, the Queen or the Tooth Fairy will not change the fact that if you are not prepared to learn the business of investing and properly apply the lessons learnt then you will lose money.
I would strongly suggest those that feel that shorting is morally wrong take up a different hobby/profession whilst they still have some money left.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Sending a letter to every MP! Why waste your time, it will take them collectively about 1 year before they even understand what short selling is, let alone sort out your crime of the century.
And as for your example of the shorts taking control of the market and creating a so called false sell-off, sure this can happen. BUT it swings both ways and can happen the other way (ie shorts getting squeezed) leading to fantastic profits for the holders and investors in a stock.
Whatever your view Loadsa, you have more chance of winning the lottery than shorts being banned because ultimately whether the shorts themselves make money or not there's far too much profit involved in the business side of the strategy (commissions, adding liquidity, lending stock etc).
Sending a letter to every MP! Why waste your time, it will take them collectively about 1 year before they even understand what short selling is, let alone sort out your crime of the century.
And as for your example of the shorts taking control of the market and creating a so called false sell-off, sure this can happen. BUT it swings both ways and can happen the other way (ie shorts getting squeezed) leading to fantastic profits for the holders and investors in a stock.
Whatever your view Loadsa, you have more chance of winning the lottery than shorts being banned because ultimately whether the shorts themselves make money or not there's far too much profit involved in the business side of the strategy (commissions, adding liquidity, lending stock etc).
Trader333
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Loada Dosh,
This is factually untrue, it has been explained several times to you that it is untrue but you seem to ignore this please explain why ?
Your analogy would make the hiring of cars illegal on the grounds that the people hiring them dont actually own them.
As for you lobbying the government well you are in a very small minority of traders and you will just get counter lobbied by a whole lot more.
You talk of patriotism, well I consider it unpatriotic to sack thousands of British workers and give the jobs to people overseas. So when I decide to short the companies stock that do that sort of thing I feel quite justified in doing so as they dont care about this country or the people in it.
Let's face it we are almost banned from displaying the Union Jack in this country anymore for fear of offending others so patriotism is almost becoming illegal anyway.
Even if they do ban shorting stocks it will just result in people trading other things instead and in particular futures where there will never be a situation where you cannot sell. Of course you will also get a massive bid ask spread if shorting is banned which will cost you when you eventually do decide to take profits on your "Averaging Down Strategy".
Paul
PS That is it for me on this thread as I am beginning to think it is just a wind up.
This is factually untrue, it has been explained several times to you that it is untrue but you seem to ignore this please explain why ?
Your analogy would make the hiring of cars illegal on the grounds that the people hiring them dont actually own them.
As for you lobbying the government well you are in a very small minority of traders and you will just get counter lobbied by a whole lot more.
You talk of patriotism, well I consider it unpatriotic to sack thousands of British workers and give the jobs to people overseas. So when I decide to short the companies stock that do that sort of thing I feel quite justified in doing so as they dont care about this country or the people in it.
Let's face it we are almost banned from displaying the Union Jack in this country anymore for fear of offending others so patriotism is almost becoming illegal anyway.
Even if they do ban shorting stocks it will just result in people trading other things instead and in particular futures where there will never be a situation where you cannot sell. Of course you will also get a massive bid ask spread if shorting is banned which will cost you when you eventually do decide to take profits on your "Averaging Down Strategy".
Paul
PS That is it for me on this thread as I am beginning to think it is just a wind up.
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Loada Dosh..........Methinks thou talks a LOADA TOSH!!!! Was it due to shorting that stocks like Marconi collapsed overnight???
You know the answer to that........pure greed on the part of the management of the company. Remember what they did to the cash rich former G.E.C.? Yes squandered the cash pile, then gave themselves fat bonuses and subsequently brought a fine investor company to its knees!!!
As stated above trading and investing are two different animals. The market has changed radically over the years, and where I can remember the days for investing in shares for a return on capital via dividends..........who in their right mind would do that today, when with the aid of what we all have on this board - personal computers - we can all share in the action today.
It has nothing at all to do with patriotism - it is all to do with keeping tabs on where shares/markets are going - up or down.
If you cant stand the heat, then you better get the hell outta here for trading can become very heated indeed.
John
You know the answer to that........pure greed on the part of the management of the company. Remember what they did to the cash rich former G.E.C.? Yes squandered the cash pile, then gave themselves fat bonuses and subsequently brought a fine investor company to its knees!!!
As stated above trading and investing are two different animals. The market has changed radically over the years, and where I can remember the days for investing in shares for a return on capital via dividends..........who in their right mind would do that today, when with the aid of what we all have on this board - personal computers - we can all share in the action today.
It has nothing at all to do with patriotism - it is all to do with keeping tabs on where shares/markets are going - up or down.
If you cant stand the heat, then you better get the hell outta here for trading can become very heated indeed.
John
Mr. Charts
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Interesting comments re-patriotism, Paul.
Unfortunately free trade in goods and services is leading to many job losses in call centres as those jobs are exported. They are hardly well paid jobs to begin with and my own feeling is that those people are having their jobs stolen from them. I feel very sorry for them - the weak always get trodden on.
If I had any of those companies in an investment portfolio I would certainly sell them.
I must admit to an irrational pleasure when shorting tobacco companies even though it makes no difference whatsoever to their "health".
Unfortunately free trade in goods and services is leading to many job losses in call centres as those jobs are exported. They are hardly well paid jobs to begin with and my own feeling is that those people are having their jobs stolen from them. I feel very sorry for them - the weak always get trodden on.
If I had any of those companies in an investment portfolio I would certainly sell them.
I must admit to an irrational pleasure when shorting tobacco companies even though it makes no difference whatsoever to their "health".
Loada Dosh.........You have no concept at all of SHORT SELLING when you refer to theft. If I own 1000 shares in XYZ company and wish to insure against a fall in value, I may take out a short in the Options market. I could in fact be forced to surrender the shares I own if I did not control the stop loss on such a trade.
Now how can that be termed theft?
Write to the 650 or so M.P.'s by all means, but whilst this lot are in power you have as much chance of getting legislation through as bringing back hanging!!! They have many other priorities to clobber us with - investors, traders, and the public at large.
John
Now how can that be termed theft?
Write to the 650 or so M.P.'s by all means, but whilst this lot are in power you have as much chance of getting legislation through as bringing back hanging!!! They have many other priorities to clobber us with - investors, traders, and the public at large.
John
Salty Gibbon
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This statement is a nonsense and contradictory Loada Dosh. Theft is illegal by definition. But here you are saying that theft is legal.
But most of what you say is very controversial and unorthodox to say the least.
As long as short selling is allowed, I will continue to do it to my heart's and my bank account's content and I shall sing Rule Britannia as I merrily short away.
Lol.
Loada Dosh........Seems you have no idea of the law either.
Your quote "Is it not the same logic as arguing that a thief who has stole your car and returned it whilst you were away on holiday has only borrowed it and so it wasn’t stealing. Even if the thief didn't damage the car whilst he borrowed it, the car will still have more mileage on it that the owner didn't put there, and, in law, the resulting wear and tear will be treated as damages"
If the perpetrator could be found the worse he would be charged with is, "Taking without the the owners permission" As for the damages you quote, then one would need to take a civil action to sue for damages. What chance of recovery if the perpetrator has no assets, which is more than probable.
Think you better give this one up
John
Your quote "Is it not the same logic as arguing that a thief who has stole your car and returned it whilst you were away on holiday has only borrowed it and so it wasn’t stealing. Even if the thief didn't damage the car whilst he borrowed it, the car will still have more mileage on it that the owner didn't put there, and, in law, the resulting wear and tear will be treated as damages"
If the perpetrator could be found the worse he would be charged with is, "Taking without the the owners permission" As for the damages you quote, then one would need to take a civil action to sue for damages. What chance of recovery if the perpetrator has no assets, which is more than probable.
Think you better give this one up
John
Salty Gibbon
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Oatman, that is a very good point indeed.
Dear oh dear.
Loada Dosh - from the bottom of my heart, I really think you should get an education in the markets and BASIC investing principals.
ALL of your points are just plain WRONG, poorly thought out and to be honest demonstrate tremendous ignorance.
I believe I can safely say this without the wrath of any mod. If a mod was to issue a warning for this post, then they would infact be agreeing with your case - which they will not, as your logic and reasoning are quite frankly poorly thought out. This demonstrates a lazy mind.
There is a saying in the markets - dumb money is lost money. For your own sake, stay away from the markets as the activities and RULES will clearly stress you out and cause upset. Is it really worth it? Just keep your cash in a savings account - it will be safer there - but please don't complain if you find out your bank is using its customers cash reserves to margin short selling activities (Basel II)!
Why doesn't Loada Dosh get a mod warning - or at least a 'though please' notice for comments that are deliberately intended as flamming?
Loada Dosh - from the bottom of my heart, I really think you should get an education in the markets and BASIC investing principals.
ALL of your points are just plain WRONG, poorly thought out and to be honest demonstrate tremendous ignorance.
I believe I can safely say this without the wrath of any mod. If a mod was to issue a warning for this post, then they would infact be agreeing with your case - which they will not, as your logic and reasoning are quite frankly poorly thought out. This demonstrates a lazy mind.
There is a saying in the markets - dumb money is lost money. For your own sake, stay away from the markets as the activities and RULES will clearly stress you out and cause upset. Is it really worth it? Just keep your cash in a savings account - it will be safer there - but please don't complain if you find out your bank is using its customers cash reserves to margin short selling activities (Basel II)!
Why doesn't Loada Dosh get a mod warning - or at least a 'though please' notice for comments that are deliberately intended as flamming?
