short selling is unpatriotic

Trader333 said:
Loada Dosh,

That is not my understanding of how shorting works particularly within the Nadaq market. The stock I have shorted is borrowed from my broker who already owns it in inventory or he borrowed it from a client or another brokerage firm who is willing to lend the stock.

So it is not stealing from others as at best it is borrowing from others who are willing to allow that to be done.


Exactly Paul. Most large investment banks have stock borrowing/loan departments who facilitate this business. Contrary to what our friend with the communist leanings believes, this actually puts money into private clients pockets, as institutions receive money for lending out stock. This is over and above the dividends which they are still entitled to, and of course they normally retain voting rights. The money they receive for lending out stock, reduces there costs, and enable in simple terms an improved return for the individuals who have bought that institutions investment products.
 
LOL!

I'm lost for words I really am (for once!)

Sorry Queenie, Sorry Tony, Sorry Mr CEO, Sorry Mr Hairy Bush for my evil activities. I must surely repent for helping keep an orderly market. Well it is SUNDAY! What an evil sinner I am for trying to pay the bills.

Loada Dosh/ Sharky. I really really really have an awful lot of respect for Loda Dosh's comments. I really do. BUT, I would like to ask Loda Dosh a question:

If you believe shorting is harmful to a company, and you believe I should have more respect for these pillars of the community, then maybe they would like to pay US some respect. Maybe McDonalds will stop advertising to kids ensuring they are obese by the time they are 12. MAybe the nice CEO will think twice before he cooks his books on his next earnings announcement. Maybe the government will stop spending our money killing innocent children in far off wars in order to steal THEIR oil when our own citizens can't even get a hospital bed or have their kids educated to a decent standard?

I'm not bitter, I just want to show the other side of the coin. LoadaDosh. I really dont mean any disrespect, but I really think you should open your eyes.

And I said I was speechless! LOL!
 
Ecxellent, the old 'Shorters are anti-christs' debate - here's one I prepared earlier - 8/7/02 to be precise.

I note your points about shorting etc but still fail to comprehend why it should be important or valuable to any degree in the stock market.
It is both important, valuable and necessary.

The stock market plays two important roles:

1. It provides a vehicle through which a company can raise money with which to expand their business with the ultimate goal of rewarding those that have put money into that company.

2. To provide a base around which other financial products - for example pensions - have the ability to generate earnings for the benefit of thier clients.

As an aside to these two fairly important areas a whole structure of financial 'dealing' has been created, all with the primary idea of creating wealth for those that want to try to improve the returns they get on their money.

To enable these companies to make money in varying market conditions various methods have been created to allow them to profit in both rising and falling markets - one such method is to be able to sell stock by 'borrowing' it from and existing owner (for a charge) and then returning it when it is bought back in. If shorting was not allowed then the market would quickly stagnate and the whole financial business collapse along with the share prices of the companies in which you have your investments.

Consider the current state of the worlds stock markets - it is a nightmare, confidence is shot to hell. If there was no way that an investment company could leverage its stock holding through either lending the stock out, or writing options against it, then they would sell at the first sign of trouble - it would be the only 'safe' thing for them to do - along with everyone else. The volatility in the marketplace would be horrendous, and many investors - private or institutions - would simply go to the wall. At worst case, each time a company came out with a statement saying that they were having a hard time, they would be dropped like a hot stone - the risk is heightened as the choices of dealing with that risk are diminished. It would be like switching a light on and off.

So, although shorting itself certainly isn't important when considered on its own, it is certainly an important part of the overall gearing and leveraging process that is the utilisation of the stock market as an investment (or gambling) forum. I believe (wrongly or not) that shorting actually helps to control and dampen volatility in the markets, whilst maintaining liquidity - without it, and the other associated derivatives, you would have a stagnant (illiquid) market prone to huge swings on good or bad news (volatility).

The knock-on affects of this would be seen at a personal level in pension, insurance, interest rates, cost of living - frankly everything you can think of. At company level, the affects would be even worse - would you 'invest' in stocks under those kind of conditions? - switching from boom to bust at the drop of a hat.

As a result companies wouldn't be able to expand, wouldn't be able to raise capital - other than through private investment - but then where would the private investors get their money? The banks wouldn't be willing to take risks - they would have no way of hedging that risk. Employees wouldn't see pay rises and what extra they did have would have to be kept back because their pensions don't grow......

I'm sure you can work out the picture. The stock market is not just about playing with your extra cash, it affects just about everything we do in some way, if you want to curb some of the methodologies and techniques that have grown around the stock market (and every other market) then you are stifling liquidity and generating volatility, which frankly is a perilous route.

I invest: stock market ( pension investment trusts and insurances )

You are allowing someone else to do the gambling for you - these pension companies and insurance companies are probably the major share holders that are offering stock to lend. Some have rules that prohibit selling for a period of time after buying, others are prohibited from going short or offering stock to shorters.

In which case not only are you giving your money (and demanding a good return) to those that may perhaps practice this dispicable act of shorting (do you know if they do or not?), but even worse, perhaps you are tying your money up in an investment vehicle that cannot take advantage of a bear market, but are compelled to hold stocks and not cash - thus putting you money at even higher risk.

Shorters are the least of the problems about at the moment - companies not making money and overall confidence in the stock market is by far more worrying - it is stuff that depressions are made of.
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Since then that markets have bottomed and risen, bu the argument remains solid.

What is worrying is the current reduction in trading ranges in the past year (since the 'bottom'). Here is a spreadsheet with the some of the indices with their average monthly range per year.

http://www.thetradepit.com/tbs/ranges.xls

Thsi shows the affect of 'climbing a wall of worry' - the classic initial recovery stages of markets. As these ranges tighten, speculators move out of the market as it becomes more difficult for them to make money (I've given up on FTSE for the first time in 6/7 years - I'll go back when I have evidence that it is worth trading again).

This is not good for the markets, reducung liquidity and therefore increasing volatility.
 
Yeah, like big business really cares about the man in the street! Long gone are the days of 'community' in the business world, now it's everyman for himself. The only time business will help you these days is if there's something in it for them. I don't like it anymore than the next guy, and I think most people would love to live in Utopia, but it don't exist!

As for having a stop onmy shorts, of course I did......But I just didn't activate it!!!
 
Short selling is instigated by the institutions, the pension funds and alike.

They hold stock for the long haul because they want a say in how a company is run and in turn believe the the companies worth will rise.

To them lending out stock has no risk because there holding for the long run anyway, so to them its free money.

When a stockholder sells it is becuse he believes the value will decline.... but for him to do so he must hve someone to sell to
In other words there are people out there who believe the stock will rise and will buy, whether they buy from a stockholder or a shorter is irrelevant to them.

At any level there has to be buyers or there is no trade.
If it wasn't for the optimistic buyers there wouldn't be anyone for the shorters to sell to.

Short sellers add volitility to a market... i believe if you could look at stock chart with and without shorter then the charts would be of the same shape but more volitile and over-extended
 
There was a fantastic quote in an interview with Tony Dye ( Dr Doom) in the weekend FT a few weeks ago. Unfortunately not being an FT subscriber I can't search their database for it, but if anyone else can, it's well worth quoting here
 
Loada Dosh

I respect you , respect you and respect you like you've never been respected before.

But you seem to be out on a limb here.

Shorting stocks makes the world go round pal. So what is your real problem ?

Remember I give you respect, respect and greater respect than I would give anybody in the whole wide world.

You have to say all this stuff otherwise you get 10 points and banned.

But I love you and respect you and respect you and respect you and respect you and respect you and respect you and.........

But I still love to short stocks ........

[Mod's note: Please don't waste out time with pointless points. 2 point warning.]
 
I'm quoting 1-4 for 'respect for Loada Dosh'

Any bids?

My spread reflects the volatility currently displayed in the market/thread as we seem to have gone lock limit down on this one! (Damn shorts - no one will take my offer.). Of course, the fact that I'm willing to make a market here shows I do have confidence and hope for Loada Dosh .

Loada Dosh: I'm only kidding. Well done for expressing your opinion in the first place. Even though it may not be popular, at least you have one. Opinion makes the world, markets and my bank account go round (and round and round)
 
Who is the Mod issuing all these warnings?

This is now getting ridiculous and will make the site and Mods a laughing stock at this rate.

Giving Dow Dog 2 points warning for that post is so ridiculous the Mod who issued it should get a warning for 'Job's Worth' posting!

[Mod's note: 5 point warning for disrespect towards a moderator. The original warnings were issued by Sharky, as is this one.]
 
Short selling is an accepted and properly regulated feature of trading. It is also an integral part of my personal strategy.

I simply cannot understand why anyone who claims to be a trader disagrees with the concept.

I also completely fail to see a link between short selling and patriotism. People who short sell are not betraying Queen and country - they are simply conducting a piece of legal business.

How odd that trading has been linked with patriotism !

How very odd indeed.
 
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What most, but to their credit not all, of the pro-shorters on this thread so far appear to be saying is that no harm is done by shorting. To take one example, that the rightful owner of the shares ( those that have gone long) have not been harmed. So let’s try to follow the logic of that line of thought.

Is it not the same logic as arguing that a thief who has stole your car and returned it whilst you were away on holiday has only borrowed it and so it wasn’t stealing. Even if the thief didn't damage the car whilst he borrowed it, the car will still have more mileage on it that the owner didn't put there, and, in law, the resulting wear and tear will be treated as damages.

In the case of those who short, the damages are of course much greater. Let’s say I bought TRK at £2 and as is my strategy I am in for the long term, I am therefore the rightful owner of shares. The big shorters move in and short the equivalant of 50% of the total capitalised stock. Due to this huge short selling the share drops to say 50 pence. The short seller then covers the short
and "returns" the long investor's property minus £1.50 in value. Clearly the long investor has £1.50 per share in damages. The shorter banks his ill gotten gains while the rightful long term owner, in this example myself, is out his investment money which I have had no control over.
 
Loada Dosh,

There is a maximum % amount of stock that can be shorted and it is nowhere near 50%. If memory serves me correctly it is about 20% to 25%.

Again you seem to have dismissed the fact that when you short stock it is borrowed from those who already own it with their permission. Your analogy that this is somehow done without them agreeing is totally flawed.


Paul
 
what about buying stock with the intention of never owning it? again thats what attracts speculators to initiate high risk investments. many a great tax revenue, stamp duty, commissions etc all help with coffers going to the taxman and country again the short term speculators are providing liquidity that enables holders of stock to liquidate(short the stock they own) with ease..
jd
 
what about buying stock with the intention of never owning it?

Ah, those were the good old days when you could trade the Account. Effectively T+28.

Psst - don't tell LoadaDoash !
 
The basic principle I have outlined in my previous message is easy to understand, and I’m convinced the majority of people know instinctively that short selling is plain and simply theft, they are taking someone else’s property and using it without their permission. To argue as one poster has that they are borrowing with the permission of the long-term holder is to make use of the legal loophole that makes short selling a legal activity, a loophole I trust will soon be closed.

It is legal theft, it as simple as that, it a standard tenet of law that to take someone else’s property and use it without their permission is illegal!

So far it is legal to sell short, it is a loophole in the law, and I believe many people that do it don’t want to admit it is really stealing because they see it as another means of making lots of dosh, also the thought is highly objectionable to their conscience. They must know, for it is nothing more than common sense, that “borrowing” property is equivalent to stealing. The short seller is taking the property (shares) of a person’s long-term position and using it to drive the share value down. It is the false selling that drives the market down, and that is the exact converse of why a person like myself, a long-term investor and real owner of the property (the shares), invested in the shares in the first place.

The laws that enable short selling will I believe eventually be overturned, and short selling banned in the UK and in US. There are government bodies in both countries looking hard into the matter. I predict the short sellers will soon be out of business!

It is my intention to add my full support to the ever growing campaign for the banning of short selling and will be sending letters to every MP in the UK setting out the numerous arguments against short selling and listing the numerous dangers and damage that short selling causes. Top of my list will be the inequitable practice induced by short selling. I am being robbed because the short sellers are taking my property for their gain, and as a long-term investor I have no options or rights and can gain nothing from a short sellers activities.

Short selling is an act of theft and should be banned!
 
lol - mods not have much to do this weekend it seems like....

i wish we could see who the mod that makes a change is. at the moment they are hiding behind the "veil of mods" ;) so just do what they please it seems like.....

[Mod's note: There is no "vale of mod" you can see exactly who issued the warning by clicking the view link next to the warning points]
 
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In the case of those who short, the damages are of course much greater. Let’s say I bought TRK at £2 and as is my strategy I am in for the long term, I am therefore the rightful owner of shares. The big shorters move in and short the equivalant of 50% of the total capitalised stock. Due to this huge short selling the share drops to say 50 pence. The short seller then covers the short
and "returns" the long investor's property minus £1.50 in value. Clearly the long investor has £1.50 per share in damages. The shorter banks his ill gotten gains while the rightful long term owner, in this example myself, is out his investment money which I have had no control over.

1. If you are in for the 'long term' (please define long term), then it doesn't matter, shorting is mainly a short term phenomenon (days to months, rather than months to years). If the company that you have researched and found to be suitable for a long term investment, was good value at £2.00, then surely the shorters have done you a favour and given you a chance to increase your holdings and average down your long term in-price.

2. If the company is so good that it consistantly produces great results then the shorters will get burned when those results are announced. Chances are that people only whinge about shorters when they have invested in a 'one-legged pony' company and it has gone wrong.

(TRK is a perfect example of a company with a great idea which never quite makes it to market - as demonstarted by the chart

3. What methodology caudsed you to buy the stock in the first place (as you are taliking about 'long term', I assume that it is fundamental rather than technical?)

4. As you are in for 'the long term', what would cause you to sell your holding?

5. Can you tell the difference between short selling and selling to get out of the stock?

6. If you are in for the 'long term' then surely short term price fluctuations are part of the game and you have to live with them.

7. As a long term investor as opposed to trader, any holding would represent a relatively small amount of your portfolio, as most successful long term investors recognise the need for diversification and portfolio management.
 
Does this short selling theft include futures trading? Do you want index futures banned as well?
 
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