short selling is unpatriotic

[Loada Dosh]

DaveJB

You take the view that since few people have supported me on this thread I should shut up as I must be a moron. You are entitled to your opinion, but your view has nothing to do with the debate here, it’s an excuse you are giving not a reason, but since you've given it, let’s take a quick look at the logic of it.

Suppose I went to a vegetarian message board and said it was OK to eat animals, and everyone there disagreed with me, would that mean I was wrong?

Don’t forget the audience here is very heavily biased, just like on the vegetarian message board. The way I see it, I’m the only one who has enough guts to come here and try to open your mind! You may not realise this, but I’m actually doing you favour, by making you think, stimulating new neurone activity. Even if I only manage to remove your blinkers for just a few seconds, I’ll be pleased!


Chris

 

[Loada Dosh]

Jpwone

You make an interesting point by drawing analogies with margin trading. But with respect there is a distinction as on the margin buy trade, the individual/firm puts up their own money and /or collateral that they rightfully own in order to purchase shares.

This contrasts with the short seller, who don't have to put anything they own up, they borrow,"legally" thieve, from someone else to obtain the short selling collateral so creating a false condition to encourage a decline in the market of the equity concerned.

In effect, short sellers go out and borrow,"thieve"),from another person's long position to use as collateral to sell the stock value down. They make a false market by taking away the normal concept of supply and demand. This false selling drives the market down, which is the opposite of why the long-term investor ,the real owner of the collateral, bought the equity. The long investor has been "robbed" in accordance with the normal interpretation of theft laws. That is one reason why the laws associated with selling short should be changed. In addition, to add insult to injury, the long investor has no options/rights or choices and gains absolutely nought from this strategy. It is legal at the moment, but at a moral level it is simply theft.

Chris

 

[Loada Dosh]

I’ve been away on business for a few days, got back this morning. Having just read the latest posts on this thread, I've answered a couple, and also looked back at some previous ones, I’m still surprised at what I perceive to be a distortion of the facts, particularly by using over generalisations, or perhaps I should say an apparent economy with the truth?

No disrespect intended but some of the views expressed are as one-sided as the Hutton report! For example, even if you disagree with me on ownership issues, and the legal rights to know and full disclosure, how can those that support selling short still justify all forms of short-selling, for example naked-short selling?

When it comes to naked short selling there can surely be no question but that we are talking about the equivalent of “theft”. It has to be, because it amounts to the sale of shares that the seller has no right to sell. If you think I’m wrong, and have some argument that can justify this disgraceful practice, please explain.

Surely it is obvious that this practice must lead to a distortion of the market, damage companies and our country, it is as I said in the original subject heading of this thread, unpatriotic! Goodness knows how many millions of pounds are conveyed away from the true owners of equities, and more disturbingly how many of those millions find their way into the coffers of our country’s enemies, think about it!

Chris

 

[options]

Your adverse to hedging then?

 

[bonsai]

gawd, I thought this thread had died

lol

short selling can hardly be theft ?
you do have to return the shares , you know.

It is much more like borrowing from the market ?

Theft is removing the property of the owners with the intent to permanently deprive them of it.

zzzzzzzzzz,

 

[donaldduke]

He that sells what isnt hisn
Must buy it back or go to prisn

 

[oatman]

Suppose I went to a vegetarian message board

Good idea

 

[DaveJB]

I really hoped this thread had died -
blinkered... well, yes you might be right and everyone else wrong, but the odds are usually stacked against you in such cases and it is common to rethink one's own position first, when faced with overwhelming opposition, on the off chance that one might in fact be in error. You haven't, you just keep disagreeing with everyone. When you go to the bank and get a mortgage you are borrowing my money without asking, short selling is no more immoral than any other loan arrangement. My point however is that SHORTING IS ALLOWED in markets, so it's ridiculous to come onto a trading board complaining that the rules we all trade under are immoral and ought to change - you either trade knowing and accepting the rules, or you stay out.
Anyhow, I'm off this thread - don't worry about my neurons, they get plenty of activity... you are beating your head against a brick wall, I for one have no wish to join you in this strange hobby.
Dave

 

[FetteredChinos]

ok, ive got an ingenious solution, and frankly it is almost as pedantic as some of the arguments hither posted..

if short selling is unpatriotic (god bless you ma'am) why dont we just rename it??? so the options are now going "LONG" and "LO"

then no-one can complain.


(i can explain that chronic gag tmr if anyone is either interested or doesnt get it)

maybe i should rename myself FacetiousChinos...


hmm, has a nice ring to it...

right im going for a "LO" nap. see you in the morning chaps/chapesses.


FC

 

[TheBramble]

Suppose I went to a vegetarian message board and said it was OK to eat animals, and everyone there disagreed with me, would that mean I was wrong?

Then I'd also wonder at the logic and your purpose in that too.

I guess evangelists are considered cranks by all except those that already agree with what is being promulgated.

I don't think you're going to find too many converts here Chris.

Shorting is a tool in a toolbox. It's a hard business to make a profit in (for most) - I don't think many are going to reduce their options even if they accept the morality of your argument .

 

[bencheng00]

I'm new, but I object.

In theory I could wait 19 years, my objective being to retire at 45 and that is the time left to accumulate enough dosh for my early retirement.

Well, by that logic, maybe your plans to retire early are also unpatriotic. While you are selfishly enjoying a leisurely retirement at age 45, you deny your country the additional GDP that could have been created had you continued to work for an extra 20 years. Thus, the very fact that you are trading in the hopes of retiring early is unpatriotic. Absurd, isn't it?

Greed is the whole point of trading in the markets, and the whole point of capitalism. Capitalism is premised on the fact that humans are by nature selfish and greedy, which is why communism never worked. In the words of one famous character, "greed is good." The people who sell short are trying to achieve the exact same goals in life as you are by averaging down. Who is to say that being long is more "moral" than being short? Whichever direction you trade in, all you're hoping for is that you bet in the correct direction. If you are so left-wing and against opportunism, you should just renounce capitalism and dedicate your life to social work.

Trading in the markets because you want to "help your country" or "help the company"? That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life.

Also, the people who open margin accounts sign a document explicitly giving the brokerage firm permission to lend their shares of stock out, so that short-sellers can borrow them. Does, it is borrowing with the owner's agreement.

 

[Tuffty]

"Greed is the whole point of trading in the markets, and the whole point of capitalism. Capitalism is premised on the fact that humans are by nature selfish and greedy, which is why communism never worked"........................AND the same reason is why capitalism won't work either. The greedy people vote in the govt who will give them the most from the public purse. In the end it all goes belly up and we end up with a dictatorship again. Well that's what I read somewhere anyway - I think I remember reading that on average democracies last 200yrs.

 

[SOCRATES]

It gets worser and worser the longer it goes on.

 

[Satori]

I think I remember reading that on average democracies last 200yrs.

Have we had enough democracies to be able to judge the average lifetime of a democracy in terms of 200 year spans?

The ancient Greeks tried a form of it and so did the Romans, but democracies really only started to to blossom in the 18th Century.

 

[Tuffty]

Satori, No idea, it was a theory put forward by someone in an ivory tower. They identified a cycle of dictatorship to democracy and back again. Can't remember the reference of these now except they were on the internet somewhere.

 

[sp1]

Hello Chris.

Before I start capitals are used for emphasis only, and please forgive any offenc if you take any as that is not my intention.

you said:

It undermines what markets are designed to do which is the creation of capital

This is sort of right, in the same way that the war on terror is about spreading freedom to others. If one only took leaders staments then it would seem so. But a close examination of the motives and the big picture shows that Oil is to America* (see below) like sugar was to the British Empire and wheat was to the Roman Empire.

*America is not the right label (what ever label you choose to give to the current capitalist rulers cos they sure aint just Americans, hereafter they are referred to as X1)

The Rulers of X1 (as opposed to the figureheads in the media) could not let democracies with their fickle swings of opinion take hold over Afghanistan or Pakistan. Because thats where one pair of oil and gas pipelines will bring the blood (that pumps through the current system) to the market. Tolerate or encourage democracies in that region, such that X1 would have to appease or bargain (give and take without compulsion) with those people...FORGET IT.

General Musharaf is a dictator but the BBC recently keep referring to him as "president" to legitimise our cooperation with him (he is really the govenor of that colony for us).........

The bigger picture looks opposite to the middle range view and the close up view is even worse (recent elections in America and many unconstitutional laws and practises).

Granted you may disagree and discount all of this sofar. But lets see if the next part can be denied.

Back to topic.

Markets were designed for wealth creation but lets take a look at the big picture....

The first ever listed company on the London stock exchange was the East India Company. Through this outfit Britain added India as a colony. Wealth my friend was transfered not created.

From the medium range view it would have looked like creation in London but a dispassionate holistic world view would show transfer of wealth, this is what markets are designed for, transfer not creation and they're not fussy where it comes form beit from abroad, ther own employees, thier own subjects you and me anyone, they dont care

After the first international exploit the markets are now used for international regional and domestic** wealth transfer (not creation)....... IT IS A WAR FOR PROFITS*** ....AND ALL IS FAIR IN WAR.

**Some examples of domestic wealth transfer include (South Sea Bubble, Tech Bubble, Housing Bubbles).

***PROFIT: The underlying meaning of this is wealth creation. Profit can only be real on a comparative basis and as such is measured in comparative terms so some one works for 100 hours and i take his money for giving him something that i worked for 5 seconds.

Short selling is a weapon or instrument of that WAR.

(Look into the root meanings of the word "instrument" you will find it quite interesting and not without purpose).

And now the finale!!!!

What would undermine the WEALTH TRANSFER that markets are designed for.....MORALITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


FACE THE TRUTH THIS IS YOU, THIS IS ME, THIS IS ALL OF US.

THAT WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT.

I am not sure of these conclusions and dearly ask those who do know for sure the structures and axioms of the market to please judge this and give me the truth where I was incorrect (by PM if you prefer). Because I really want to get to the bottom of all this.

If your self esteem it attached with the notion that this system is morally good. Ego will defend you from this attack.

But you can be free; master your ego.

Kind Regards all

Sp1

 

[commanderco]

Selling short is unpatriotic Chris

I live in Country 1, I travel on a passport from Country 2, I trade futures long & short in Country 3 and my business is based in Country 4.

Which part of me is unpatriotic?
To be honest, I thought that I was doing my bit to prop up a fiat currency.

 

[oatman]

If you don't want to use all the tools at your disposal to make money, then you shouldn't trade :cheesy: Morals don't come in to it. This thread is about emotion and being nice.

 

[neil]

oil - give me oil

The country doesn't give a toss for you so why bang your forehead in angst about it?
This arguement began on Elite Trader.com. Looks like some one copied it to over here.
Bet the poster is an American.

 

[sp1]

Oil -Give me oil

The country doesn't give a toss for you so why bang your forehead in angst about it?
This arguement began on Elite Trader.com. Looks like some one copied it to over here.
Bet the poster is an American.

Hello. Neil

I'm confused.

Sorry, I am thick but asking many questions has helped me get through in the past so here goes.

Are you talking about my post or short selling??

Can you please explain.

It may be a trivial point, but just incase I dont want to miss anything important.

Many thanks

Sp1