Scam Merchants - Lets get rid of them??

[Finlayson]

place a trade, go on a course, place a trade, go on a course........all the same thing really

come on .....the world of trading is absolutely full of B*lls**t.......its what the whole thing feeds on. at the end of the day there are, i Guess, good trading teachers & bad trading teachers, but NOBODY has the monopoly on how to trade...there are so many variables
if somebody convinces someone else not t go on a course , in which they may have learnt a valuable lesson..........have they done them a good service ?

do we want 'Risk Free' courses & Trading....well it isnt gonna happen......ever. if you get burnt.....you learn a lesson........................if you cant do this then eventually your inability to learn will take you out of the arena & you will end up doing something more suited to you

who is going to vet the vetters( if that is the right word) of the courses

I consider myself a very giving & spiritual person.......but if part of my living was built on courses on a subject such as trading( with all its variables)......and I set about on a campaign such as this, it would (consciously or not!) only be for one reason.........to destroy the competition !!!

if I had a sudden bout of concern for my fellow person they are far, far better causes to spend my time on than to 'Nanny' us poor, poor, unfortunate downtrodden traders.......trying to make easy money of anothers fortune, or usually misfortune.

Jay

 

[rossored]

right, i have now deleted all the off-topic posts. PLEASE can we get back on with the subject, as Finlayson has tried to do in the last topical post in the thread.

If I've deleted your post, it's nothing personal - let's move on.

 

[SOCRATES]

place a trade, go on a course, place a trade, go on a course........all the same thing really

come on .....the world of trading is absolutely full of B*lls**t.......its what the whole thing feeds on. at the end of the day there are, i Guess, good trading teachers & bad trading teachers, but NOBODY has the monopoly on how to trade...there are so many variables
if somebody convinces someone else not t go on a course , in which they may have learnt a valuable lesson..........have they done them a good service ?

do we want 'Risk Free' courses & Trading....well it isnt gonna happen......ever. if you get burnt.....you learn a lesson........................if you cant do this then eventually your inability to learn will take you out of the arena & you will end up doing something more suited to you

who is going to vet the vetters( if that is the right word) of the courses

I consider myself a very giving & spiritual person.......but if part of my living was built on courses on a subject such as trading( with all its variables)......and I set about on a campaign such as this, it would (consciously or not!) only be for one reason.........to destroy the competition !!!

if I had a sudden bout of concern for my fellow person they are far, far better causes to spend my time on than to 'Nanny' us poor, poor, unfortunate downtrodden traders.......trying to make easy money of anothers fortune, or usually misfortune.

Jay

Yes, exactly, let us follow the directive Rossored has laid down...

Now, let us progress this discussion further shall we ?

Let us progress this discussion disregarding the permanent obstacle that many people do not understand that they do not understand and what is more, they are unaware they do not understand....because if they did....they would understand everything immediately, which is not the case..

So, yes I agree with you.

Interwoven into the original reason is the question of the possiible intent to destroy the competition, as a by product....now...is it possible to discuss that ?

 

[jimbo57]

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[rols]

Touch of the Rummy's here, the known knowns, the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns.

A man woke up one morning and found he'd lost his voice. So he went to look for it, and when he came to the wood there was the bird who'd stolen it. It was singing beautifully and the man said, “Now I sing so beautifully I shall be rich and famous”. He put the bird in a cage and said, “When I open my mouth wide you must sing”. Then he went to the king and said, “I will sing your majesty's praises”. But when he opened his mouth the bird could only groan and cry because it was in a cage, and the king had the man whipped. The man took the bird home, but his family couldn't stand the bird's groaning and crying and they left him. So in the end the man took the bird back to the wood and let it out of the cage. But the man believed the king had treated him unjustly and he kept saying to himself, “The king's a fool” and as the bird still had the man's voice, it kept singing this all over the wood and soon the other birds learned it. The next time the king went hunting he was surprised to hear all the birds singing, “The king's a fool”. He caught the bird who'd started it and pulled out its feathers, broke its wings and nailed it to a branch as a warning to all the other birds. The forest was silent. And just as the bird had the man's voice the man now had the bird's pain. He ran round silently waving his head and stamping his feet, and he was locked up for the rest of his life in a cage.

 

[SOCRATES]

If all of this were simple, it would not present any difficulties.

But it is not so simple.

Additional to the obstacle that many people do not understand that they do not understand, and do not realise it or accept it, while they are firmly convinced that they do, is the other dilemma of whether they can be given what they really need in preference to what they want, but the additional difficulty is that even if they are given what they need there is no guarantee they can or will use it.

So it is a no win situation it seems.

 

[jimbo57]

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[Merstocks]

Well done to the staff at Trade 2 Win for facilitating such a lively discussion. As a new person to trading I will prefer to read and take it all in. I had welcomed Zenda's idea for its discursive nature, and was surprised at some of the distinct replies which were levied. However, I suppose thats life.

I am impressed at the great variety of topics in Trade 2 Win and expect that it will be sometime before I cover good ground. In the meantime I hope everyone will keep posting as it the variety, personality and quality of exchanges, that give this site its uniqueness.

Not taking any courses for a while though ........

 

[SOCRATES]

You have finally squared your circle socco

Yes, I forgot to add one word at the end of the sentence ending with .....will use it.

The word that is missing is the word "properly".

 

[jimbo57]

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[jimbo57]

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[SOCRATES]

Actually, do you know what ?

All of it is an ongoing comedy of errors, a real farce.

The scammers are giving the public what the public wants, not what the public needs.

The public refuses to accept what it needs and instead puts its attention on what it wants.

The scammers know this, and continue to give the public what it wants, unaware they are giving them the wrong thing, and persisting in it.

Among themselves, they squabble, because their viewpoint is tainted by "business ideas" instead of "commercial concepts".

Both the scammers and the scammed are in the same boat, as both are unaware that they are unaware.

I have explained at length in the past the difference between business and commerce, so I am not going to explain it again.

In all this, both parties are unaware that they are unaware of what they should be aware of, otherwise they would not carry on the way they do.....this applies to the great majoriy by the way.

In the small minority there are hidden vested interests that promote such confusion on an ongoing basis.

Finally there is another group that benefits greatly from such confusion and endless supply of victims.

This is because the markets require constant cannon fodder.

Cannon fodder is required to keep markets active and liquid.

And so the whole thing can be very entertaining and funny and tragic also.

But when you say these things people do not like it, they are apt to get offended.

So it is best to let the scammers scam and do their business and the others to get on with their commercial operations.

 

[SOCRATES]

yes Dis-information, deception,confusion and games now that is worth promoting. But it self promotes itself , thats a bonus. whats the propellant? The Conditioned Consumer owned by what they own?

Actually, it is a real pity that people condemn themselves in the way they do.

But it is a fact of life.

And one gets tired of trying to make water run uphill with people and eventually gives up.

The really tragic part is that even when they are given what they need, they are apt not to recognise it and to warp it, corrupt it, and to turn it into something totally unrecognisable from the original, thus rendering it useless, and by then it is too late and too difficult to correct.

I remember a story of a man who wanted to give his wife a beautiful jewelled hair comb for their wedding anniversary as a surprise and she intended to give him a beautiful watch chain to match his pocket watch.

Neither consulted one another.

The day arrived and to his horror and sadness she had cut her hair and sold it to a wigmaker to pay for the chain, and he unbeknown to her, had sold his watch to pay for the jewelled comb.

It took a long time for her hair to grow to its former length and glory and for him to save enough to buy himself another pocket watch to match the chain.

Thus it can be shown that a simple avoidable blunder can cause a lot of grief and waste of valuable time.

 

[timsk]

The scammers are giving the public what the public wants, not what the public needs. The public refuses to accept what it needs and instead puts its attention on what it wants.

Sweet Albert, very sweet.
I'm don't recall if Disraeli said this about someone else or if someone else said this about him but, anyway, the accusation was along the lines of: "he is intoxicated by the exuberance of his own verbosity". Such an accusation has been made of you in the past, I know, and I confess that on occasion I too have felt this way about some of your posts.
However, today - all is forgiven. My quote from your post sums up the situation as I perceive it in equal measures of precision and brevity. Well said.

However, I remain a tad confused by the following.

The scammers know this, and continue to give the public what it wants, unaware they are giving them the wrong thing, and persisting in it.

The suggestions is, as I understand it, that the scammers give the public what it wants but they (the scammers) are unaware that it is not what the public needs. If the scammers don't know or, more to the point, care about what the public needs and the public themselves don't know what it is that they need, the question that begs to be answered is . . .
Who on earth is going to give the public what it needs?
Perhaps this is where you fit in; is this how you see your role on T2W?

Tim.

 

[timsk]

How did my post drawing attention to the thread originator's lack of credentials to be carrying out such a mission constitute an off topic post?
And why did my post this morning asking others to consider your motivations in deleting that post - also get deleted?
Hardly off topic.

Tony,
I hope you take the comments that follow in the spirit in which they are intended. If you were an intellectually challenged fumbling fool from a dysfunctional family with a mountain of problems that the average member of T2W couldn't even begin to contemplate then, yes, you might have been given a tad more latitude by the moderators. As it is, you are a really smart bloke, overflowing with charm, wit and, on occasions, wisdom. The post that you made and was subsequently deleted, completely negated all these positives. Personally, I was very disappointed that you posted it and support the moderators 100% in removing it. It reflected far far worse on you than it did on Zenda. As another member remarked, comically: 'don't send Bramble a PM!' Come on Tony, you can do much better, so much better.
Tim.

 

[SOCRATES]

Sweet Albert, very sweet.
I'm don't recall if Disraeli said this about someone else or if someone else said this about him but, anyway, the accusation was along the lines of: "he is intoxicated by the exuberance of his own verbosity". Such an accusation has been made of you in the past, I know, and I confess that on occasion I too have felt this way about some of your posts.
However, today - all is forgiven. My quote from your post sums up the situation as I perceive it in equal measures of precision and brevity. Well said.

However, I remain a tad confused by the following.

The suggestions is, as I understand it, that the scammers give the public what it wants but they (the scammers) are unaware that it is not what the public needs. If the scammers don't know or, more to the point, care about what the public needs and the public themselves don't know what it is that they need, the question that begs to be answered is . . .
Who on earth is going to give the public what it needs?
Perhaps this is where you fit in; is this how you see your role on T2W?

Tim.

It is a very sad state of affairs but simple to understand and I will explain it as simply as I can.

The public just cannot be given what it needs.

The public will not accept what is needed.

The public will only accept what it wants, despite protestations to the contrary.

The public refuses to tackle what it needs to tackle and corrupts itself to tackle what it wants to and in the fashion it perversely chooses to.

It is as if what the public needs is like a sort of horrid foul tasting medicine the public is unwilling to have administered to them as they do not view the consumption of this medicine that they truly need as necessary or relevant to them, whether personally or collectively.

All of this is acceptable in any other field of endeavour, but not in trading.

They view themselves as exempt. The truth is that no one is exempt from having to have this nasty medicine if they are to progress. Absolutely no one.Because one day there is no more need to take any more medicine, as the condition is fully cured, and that...is the prize.

When attempts are made to administer the medicine every concievable resistance is put up.
Some aspects of this resistance are fully conscious, and some are subconscious, that is to say subconsciously ingrained to resist having it.

One pernicious aspect of this excercise is that the medicine has to be self administered.

Another pernicious aspect of this excercise is that in addition to the taking of unpleasant medicine some unpleasant work has to be done on self, in order to eradicate harmful inabilies that hinder progress.

This additionally the great majority are either unwilling or unable to do or both, but everyone is able to pretend they are going to do it.

To entrust a complete tool kit to someone and to explain what tool does what does not create a craftsman. It creates a hoarder with a box of tools, that's all. Frequently in addition, this hoarder expects the tools to jump out of the box and do the work. This is impossible.

If this were not bad enough, add the ingredients of intellectual laziness, no imagination, no initiative, rigid expectancy and sloth, for want of a better word, and you have a recipe for failure.

In reply to your question the reply is negative.

It is better if people continue to be given what they deserve, according to their perceptions.

It is better for them to be entitled to obtain what they want, and not be given what they need.

My role is simply that of observer and commentator, and not of tutor or mentor to anyone any more under any circumstances whatsoever.

I hope and expect this explanation satisfies your enquiry.

 

[jimbo57]

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[timsk]

I hope and expect this explanation satisfies your enquiry.

Indeed it does Albert, thank you. Nonetheless, it is a gloom laden response and one that leaves me to conclude that Zenda's quest at the start of the thread is both futile and unnecessary. Unnecessary because the public actually want the scam merchants. Futile because they remain mutually dependant upon one another and, while this situation persists, there is no real opportunity for change. Change, in this context, is the 'outing' and ostracisation of the scammers by the scammed. The status quo will remain in tact as long as the 'victims' want the scammers. Having started the thread, Zenda attracted a torrent of criticism and has quickly withdrawn. On the basis of your assessment, this may be just as well. It may help to prevent the thread from suffering a long 'slow bleed' and ending with the same conclusion.

Tim.

 

[dick_dastardly]

You see a vicar collecting from the flock preaching on the act of giving and also see him skim a few quid for himself. You would remain silent then?

Come on tim you can do so much better if ya wanna.

But its your call.

Or some American Evangelist skim a few million for himself

Religion is the biggest scam of them all Gat28

but then that's a topic for another thread on another day

dd

 

[timsk]

You see a vicar collecting from the flock preaching on the act of giving and also see him skim a few quid for himself. You would remain silent then?
Come on tim you can do so much better if ya wanna.
But its your call.

Hi Gat28,
If all your subsequent posts are as robust as this one, then we will all be entertained, challenged and amused. Only those who have been lurking for some time in the muddy waters that engulf these boards will be aware of the history behind my post. The point being that I am not really interested in the alleged wrong doing of the vicar - to continue with your analogy - I'm concerned with the manner in which he was exposed. Just as tape recordings aren't admissible in a court of law, underhand 'exposes' are not permitted here - and quite rightly so, IMO. It's about old fashioned values of respect and etiquette. Tony knows and understands this only too well, which is what makes his actions so unacceptable.

As for doing better, I 'wanna'. Sorry to disappoint.
BTW, welcome to T2W!
Tim.