Scam Merchants - Lets get rid of them??

[timaru69]

No, I do not use testimonials and never have.

I have the real thing.

I have students who remain loyal and in close contact daily, weekly and not restricted to this country either. Some of them are into their 7th 8th 9th or 10th year having been schooled and mentored by me during all this time.

[


Hi Socrates

I hope this doesn't come across as being flippant but how much do you/did you charge for your training? What was your motivation for wanting to mentor other people?

The biggest questions I have when it comes to talking about mentors is why, somebody who purports to making a living from trading would want to spend the time and energy mentoring others?

and

Why do they never show you their account statements? (their real ones)? as proof of ther past and present success? Surley a good mentor would have no problems with this?

Cheers

T

 

[Buswhiz]

Fools And Their Money

Gee i dont know if i dare venture into this battlefield for fear of encouraging the full might of al the legendary guns to zero in on little 'ol me.

Anyway - for as long as fools have money in their pockets - they will quickly and easily be parted. From stock and shares seminars to property workshops whatever - all are built on the sole intention of earning huge sums of money for the presenter, the owner or the scammer. None is truely educational or they would be free. These people flog false hopes and dreams - anything which is made so simple, so easy is not for real. But the believers believe until one day someone or something shakes them back into reality.

Personally i detest this industry, moreso the people who blindly follow, support these companies and cry foul at the end when they are caught out. Worse still are those that ride the coat tail of these companies knowing the undeniable truth of the rubbish they churn out

Anyway back to something more personally rewarding trading the US

 

[SOCRATES]

No, I do not use testimonials and never have.

I have the real thing.

I have students who remain loyal and in close contact daily, weekly and not restricted to this country either. Some of them are into their 7th 8th 9th or 10th year having been schooled and mentored by me during all this time.

[


Hi Socrates

I hope this doesn't come across as being flippant but how much do you/did you charge for your training? What was your motivation for wanting to mentor other people?

The biggest questions I have when it comes to talking about mentors is why, somebody who purports to making a living from trading would want to spend the time and energy mentoring others?

and

Why do they never show you their account statements? (their real ones)? as proof of ther past and present success? Surley a good mentor would have no problems with this?

Cheers

T

Hello Timaru, It doesn't come across as flippant at all. I have stopped taking anyone some time ago, sorry.

This is because finally I have the team I want, carefully and intensively trained over a long period of time with periodic meticulous mentoring on a tailored individual basis.

Also because I got fed up with undisciplined individuals who go and do the opposite of what it is they ought to be doing, which is a waste of time and effort for everyone concerned and very aggravating and an ongoing nuisance.

The current group which is distilled and hand picked and also do not agree to any new admitees. They know the mission well and verify it to be daunting to the great majority.They have grown to be comfortable with each other as a group as a matter of complete and utter trust.

It is like a band of brothers, and I respect their wishes in return for their individual and collective loyalty, not only to me, but to each other. So further tuitiion outside the group is out of the question. Anyone not making the required grade, having been admitted is allowed to remain, but is quietly deselected (booted out ) before the final part of the syllabus is introduced.

The question of fees does not arise, since I am not prepared to do it any longer, under any circumstances, for any reason, to anyone outside my group whether paid or unpaid., under any circumstances whatsoever.

But I assure you that if you are lucky enough to find the right tutor, he would be virtually unaffordable., as the possibilities in trading are virtually limitless.

The main reason for tutoring and mentoring is not for financial gain, it is to break the monotony of of being all alone pressing keys in front of a screen, ask any of the top trainers who really know their business back to front and inside out, and they will explain the same, because intensely focusing on trading is, or can be a lonely business. At the same time they deserve to be rewarded for their expertise that they pass on to you.Therefore tutoring and mentoring provides a break and also the opportunity to have contact with like minded people.

In my group there are no secrets, we all know what each other are trading and what sizes, and in what markets and so on.

We are in contact with each other on a daily / hourly basis, and therefore know each others' performance, we know each others details as what we have is beyond trading but truly as a band of brothers.

Newbies are always asking this question about accounts. They focus on accounts instead of putting their attention on the work that has to be done in order to achieve success. They are not satisfied with being shown live trading. They want to run fast before they can walk.

Trading, effective trading, is much more than being right more times than wrong, it is about being consistently right, and not inconsistently or sporadically right, and about tight management.

To achieve this requires several things to be correctly in place.

These things do not cost money. There are personal costs involved instead.

But he cost to the trader is not affordable to most ordinary people.

Ordinary people insist on clinging to their ego and their opinions and their beliefs and their emotions when they enter the trading arena.

Ordinary people want and expect and stubbornly demand to be able to remain themselves as they are in ordinary life without realising they have to change themselves in order to succeed. This expression of will ordinary people are not willing to commit to as they view it as not necessary.

This act of will many find very difficult, and many find impossible and only very few are ready willling and able to truly enact true determinism, as repeated acts of will and self governance and self responsibility of the highest order, leading to the abandonment of ego, emotion, opinions and beliefs that they hold dear.

There is nothing wrong with that, only that in the trading arena, which is not constructed to accomodate such luxuries, there no room for it, absolutely none.

For your interest I have dealt with the inabilities that succeed in people actually preventing themselves from succeeding at length in various threads on these boards already.

I hope and expect that this satisfies your enquiry.

 

[dc2000]

Newbies are always asking this question about accounts. They focus on accounts instead of putting their attention on the work that has to be done in order to achieve success. They are not satisfied with being shown live trading. They want to run fast before they can walk.

Not only newbies my dear Soc in this game "money talks and bullsh*t walks"

 

[SOCRATES]

Not only newbies my dear Soc in this game "money talks and bullsh*t walks"

Yes you are right.

 

[SOCRATES]

Gee i dont know if i dare venture into this battlefield for fear of encouraging the full might of al the legendary guns to zero in on little 'ol me.

Anyway - for as long as fools have money in their pockets - they will quickly and easily be parted. From stock and shares seminars to property workshops whatever - all are built on the sole intention of earning huge sums of money for the presenter, the owner or the scammer. None is truely educational or they would be free. These people flog false hopes and dreams - anything which is made so simple, so easy is not for real. But the believers believe until one day someone or something shakes them back into reality.

Personally i detest this industry, moreso the people who blindly follow, support these companies and cry foul at the end when they are caught out. Worse still are those that ride the coat tail of these companies knowing the undeniable truth of the rubbish they churn out

Anyway back to something more personally rewarding trading the US

In the event you might like to expand your understanding, I recommend you read the thread

Trading Courses....

You are sure to find it very interesting reading.

 

[dick_dastardly]

Removed - never to contribute on T2W forums again I may submit articles for the benefit of those that appreciate it but there are some exceedingly nasty and jealous individuals here. :|

Well Zenda !

That didn’t last very long did it ?

You’ve been a member of T2W long enough to know that by starting a thread such as this it was inevitable that at some point you yourself would become the subject of a denunciation.

Surely, you must have had a plan in place for such an eventuality before starting this inquisition.

I don’t believe that the only way you can think of to deal with all of this is to pick up the ball and go and sit in the Wendy House.

May I suggest that you ride out the initial storm you have provoked and maybe the thread will follow the path you originally intended ( whatever that is ).

If you just sit back and do nothing then I'm afraid the thread will remain as " The lynching of Zenda by the mob“.

Yours, with the best of intentions

dd

 

[timaru69]

Newbies are always asking this question about accounts. They focus on accounts instead of putting their attention on the work that has to be done in order to achieve success. They are not satisfied with being shown live trading. They want to run fast before they can walk.

Hi Socrates

Thanks for reply

I guess the question about "accounts" arises in my mind because a lot of these mentors don't show you live trading, their seminars are usually held over the weekend. Therefore you can't see them in action.

Cheers

T

 

[ampro]

There are a few genuine & honest Mentors out there, and those which will have no problems whatsoever in offering their past records for perusal + tutoring during live mkt hours.

Unfortunately, you won't find them hawking their wares around public bulletin boards.

Generally, their reputation precedes them, & their (future) clients arrive via recommendation.

 

[SOCRATES]

Newbies are always asking this question about accounts. They focus on accounts instead of putting their attention on the work that has to be done in order to achieve success. They are not satisfied with being shown live trading. They want to run fast before they can walk.

Hi Socrates

Thanks for reply

I guess the question about "accounts" arises in my mind because a lot of these mentors don't show you live trading, their seminars are usually held over the weekend. Therefore you can't see them in action.

Cheers

T

Theoretical principles can best be explained when the market is not running, because trading time is valuable. Having said that, live trading is only going to show you the execution of these principles. I am not saying live trading is of limited value. Its value lies in illustrating live when opportunities arise in reality and when they do not. They offer opportunities to reinforce the concept that the market cannot be forced. They also provide windows in which to demonstrate timing and technique. As the markets do not do exactly the same thng every day one would have to spend a long time demonstrating live trading to allow every concievable combination of market action to arise. This is not feasable either. The important part of showing live trading is to take the opportunity to illustrate what must be and what must not be done. This also helps to bring the theoretical principles learnt to a framework of reality.

 

[Splitlink]

Theoretical principles can best be explained when the market is not running, because trading time is valuable. Having said that, live trading is only going to show you the execution of these principles. I am not saying live trading is of limited value. Its value lies in illustrating live when opportunities arise in reality and when they do not. They offer opportunities to reinforce the concept that the market cannot be forced. They also provide windows in which to demonstrate timing and technique. As the markets do not do exactly the same thng every day one would have to spend a long time demonstrating live trading to allow every concievable combination of market action to arise. This is not feasable either. The important part of showing live trading is to take the opportunity to illustrate what must be and what must not be done. This also helps to bring the theoretical principles learnt to a framework of reality.

That's true. Live trading should be backed up after hours with, perhaps, an accompanying chart.

 

[trendie]

I agree with most of what you said. However I am unwilling for legal reasons to define anyone's style in public as a scam, regardless of what I think.

However despite the rights or wrongs of John's style, he is right to raise the issue of scams (whatever that might mean - and we all know what that is) and right that it needs regulation. And he is right to seek to publicise it.

Regarding your question. I am a successful trader. Does answer you question!

OOPS!

Ken,

my concern and frustration was the failure to define with any clarity "what" a scam was, not to name "someone" as such.

my use of the "stop-loss" question was metaphorically to suggest the thread had no more upside remaining. ( except for comic potential. )

I didnt intend the remark as casting aspersions on your personal trading methods / ability, merely at the overall thrust of the thread.

 

[kenhetherington]

Well said GW

Scam merchants are easy to spot... It is the more insidious individuals who have agendas other than money which are harder to spot... Scam merchants dont worry me, what worries me is being sucked into the world of an individual claiming to be something and someone they are not, claiming to have knowledge and ability that they do not possess, but who at the same time does an exceptional job of presenting that make believe image they want and wish you to see, to begin with at least... By the time all the pieces of information come together to illuminate the situation clearly you have already wasted more than enough time...

but the good thing to come from these experiences is that once you have been there and been taken for a ride, it is easy to see "whos who in the zoo"...

best wishes,

cheers...

 

[fxmarkets]

Zenda's Muscle Move- Eyeing Up The Cabbage Patch

hmm i thought zenda was miffed that others he mentioned in his public broacast as scammers , were tagged as scammers because the info ( accompanying the buffet lunches if indeed they do feature , as a main course or a side serving of the day) supplied was in zenda's opinion too much money. That surely is just down to testing the market and see what people will be prepared to pay for it like any product or service.

I would of thought a scam is maybe charging for £400- £4,000 and not turning up.

whats mentioned so far just seems to be squabbling that some are charging more than zenda and that , in his view (according to my initial glance) is a scam. surely its just better marketing from better salesman and marketeers?

unless zenda means the quality or content in the courses are not worth the money? but thats very subjective and when zenda presents trading as horse racing and the 2.30 pm from wall street then @ £400.00 i'd have to say thats fully valued and he's doing very well flogging that dead horse.

If he gets 20 a session then good, more the merrier, thats what sellings about isn't it ? few hundred @ £1500 a pop then clearly those salesman are up a level in their game, I think Zenda's tryin a muscle move , eyeing up the patch tying to nobble the competition maybe, its heading like filthy stinking burger money wars.

But what is a scam still ? tutors/salesman selling trading info that @ best isnt appropriate. ?

It must be zenda's miffed at his competitions course content ,the information itself.

Maybe zenda can come back and say why he thinks ,those who he has said are scamming are actually scamming .

 

[kenhetherington]

A quick search on the Net gave the following definition of a scam. I repeat I am not accusing any individual of this.

"A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle"

It is for the "man on the Clapham omnibus" to decide who fits this bill.

Thanks for clarifying your original question.

OOPS!

Ken,

my concern and frustration was the failure to define with any clarity "what" a scam was, not to name "someone" as such.

my use of the "stop-loss" question was metaphorically to suggest the thread had no more upside remaining. ( except for comic potential. )

I didnt intend the remark as casting aspersions on your personal trading methods / ability, merely at the overall thrust of the thread.

 

[kenhetherington]

I think a lot of issues have got mixed up here.

First issue is Zenda's reputation. It is a subject I have ZERO knowledge of.

I was commenting on his apparent willingness to do something to address the serious issue of people making outrageous claims to benefit financially. This sort of thing will only stop and/or be properly regulated if people who are public spirited make a stand!

I agree with the general thrust that anyone leading such a drive to improve standards should themselves have integrity and not have a personal vested interest in the outcome.

I also agree that a scam is a scam, regardless of the scale of it.

I agree with Buswiz comments that there is a lot wrong with this industry (traders' coaches) but I would add that sharp practice exists in every industry, unless and until it is properly regulated and policed. That is the scandal here. There is apparently little effective regulation. And therefore some people feel they can constantly push the boundaries as far as ......

But not all trainers are like that. So we should be wary of tarring all trainers with the same brush. Education of traders is vital

hmm i thought zenda was miffed that others he mentioned in his public broacast as scammers , were tagged as scammers because the info ( accompanying the buffet lunches if indeed they do feature , as a main course or a side serving of the day) supplied was in zenda's opinion too much money. That surely is just down to testing the market and see what people will be prepared to pay for it like any product or service.

I would of thought a scam is maybe charging for £400- £4,000 and not turning up.

whats mentioned so far just seems to be squabbling that some are charging more than zenda and that , in his view (according to my initial glance) is a scam. surely its just better marketing from better salesman and marketeers?

unless zenda means the quality or content in the courses are not worth the money? but thats very subjective and when zenda presents trading as horse racing and the 2.30 pm from wall street then @ £400.00 i'd have to say thats fully valued and he's doing very well flogging that dead horse.

If he gets 20 a session then good, more the merrier, thats what sellings about isn't it ? few hundred @ £1500 a pop then clearly those salesman are up a level in their game, I think Zenda's tryin a muscle move , eyeing up the patch tying to nobble the competition maybe, its heading like filthy stinking burger money wars.

But what is a scam still ? tutors/salesman selling trading info that @ best isnt appropriate. ?

It must be zenda's miffed at his competitions course content ,the information itself.

Maybe zenda can come back and say why he thinks ,those who he has said are scamming are actually scamming .

 

[Buswhiz]

scam merchants

What is simple is being ever so complicated - it all revolves around veracity. If the seminar is based around untruths whether relating to the course content or to the credentials of the presenter then that to me is a scam. These lies or however you wish to couch them must be deliberate and not exaggerated claims - which then involves a question of degree.

For the former they need to be vilified and if i am not mistaken made subject to civil and criminal law. The latter should be subject to proper regulation by an independent body and taught how to tow the line.

That is how it should be.

 

[jimbo57]

I believe in the yellow brick road, the Wizard of Oz, that goverments have our best interest at heart, the war on terror, and goodwill to all men too. Amen

 

[kenhetherington]

Exactly BW

What is simple is being ever so complicated - it all revolves around veracity. If the seminar is based around untruths whether relating to the course content or to the credentials of the presenter then that to me is a scam. These lies or however you wish to couch them must be deliberate and not exaggerated claims - which then involves a question of degree.

For the former they need to be vilified and if i am not mistaken made subject to civil and criminal law. The latter should be subject to proper regulation by an independent body and taught how to tow the line.

That is how it should be.

 

[Buswhiz]

Scam Merchants

Jimbo I understand your sentiments; however, it is roll-over-acceptance of how things are that allow these scammers to continue. It isnt that difficult to check out some of the facts that they spew wildly around. But to moan on about them is one thing to do something is another. Think about it: this board has limited circulation in terms of people being enticed on to these courses. Sadly they may never get as far as this board and by then the scammer has won and made off with another fortune