Psychology... the poll

[PKFFW]

Not at all, you have misunderstood and this is now getting laborious and tedious. It is beyond me how such a simple concept can be so constantly misunderstood. Do you honestly think that if you sat a chimpanzee in front of a computer and showed it exactly how YOU trade that it will understand? Why not? If you understand why not then maybe you have hope of understanding what I’m saying, maybe....

If you honestly think that anyone can become a successful trader then no doubt you think it also applies to our nearest relative....

This argument is unbelievably and mind bogglingly tedious...

And you claim the arguments FW and I use are illogical and absurd!!

I know you seem to have a fixation about monkeys but to suggest trading is something that only someone born with the magical "profitable trader gene", which you can't seem to provide any evidence even exists, can achieve success at and then use the example that a chimpanze can't learn to trade in order to prove your point I think is somewhat absurd and ridiculous.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[PKFFW]

n_t, temptrader, et al, you still have not made any distinction between a "profitable trader" and whatever type of trader you are talking about when you bring up examples of genius to prove that trading is so difficult and unachievable for the masses.

n_t's spurious attempt to discredit the idea by showing a non-profitable system as an example notwithstanding, as mathemagician says, anyone can learn to trade a mechanical system. Of course it goes without saying that the system needs to be profitable in order for the trader to be profitable.

Regardless of what anyone wants to believe, attempting to put profitable trading in the same realm as Einsteins theory of relativity or any of the other works of genius that have been mentioned in this thread is sheer ego. It is nothing of the sort.

Lastly, again I must reiterate, no matter how many people fail at trading this failure can not and is not proof that one needs to be born with the magical "profitable traders gene" in order to succeed. To suggest this is so is to see a causal evidencial link where none exists. For a group of people who seem so bent on their own logical brilliance and rational thought I'm truly surprised none of you get that.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[nine]

To suggest this is so is to see a causal evidencial link where none exists. For a group of people who seem so bent on their own logical brilliance and rational thought I'm truly surprised none of you get that.

Perhaps you mean "evidential."

 

[Mathemagician]

Andy,

Mathemagician thought he was proving a point by posting the equity curve. But I already knew the ORB system isn't a good system. Incidentally Mathemagician, what exactly do you mean by "I hope nobody blindly takes your word for it". Take my word for what exactly? I don't recall attaching any promises, claims or otherwise...it is a mechanical system that is simple to follow, and ANYONE can trade it. Even a monkey

Anyway, Andy, I actually traded it back in the days when I was foolish enough to believe the things that people like Mathemagician said. But I didn't need a 'professional' trader to post a pretty equity curve to prove it was no good. I did my own research and arrived at my own conclusion. I scrutinised that system right down to the tick! More importantly, I arrived at the ultimate conclusion - Mechanical trading is simply not the way to go about trading. I'm sure Mathemagician will post a pretty equity curve of a 'good' mechanical system in an effort to 'prove' me wrong

Don't worry, I won't be posting an equity curve here for you. It's already posted where it belongs... in my accounts and on my disclosure documents.

jj

 

[PKFFW]

Perhaps you mean "evidential."

Yes perhaps I do, thanks for the correction. Spelling was never my best ability. Perhaps I lack the "successful speller gene".

 

[dick_dastardly]

Yes perhaps I do, thanks for the correction. Spelling was never my best ability. Perhaps I lack the "successful speller gene".

I think most of us have that odd word we can't spell. It's just part of us, like a fingerprint.


dd

 

[new_trader]

n_t's spurious attempt to discredit the idea by showing a non-profitable system as an example notwithstanding

Do you see how you do not understand yet persist in arguing? It is a profitable system, I said it wasn't a good one...

I'll let you work out why the same way I had to, or do you need spoon-feeding?

 

[firewalker99]

Do you see how you do not understand yet persist in arguing? It is a profitable system, I said it wasn't a good one...

I'll let you work out why the same way I had to, or do you need spoon-feeding?

Different day, same story. Down the same road again

What defines a good system? If a trader manages to develop a system that gives him say only 10% profit per year, but by doing so has at all times no more drawn than 0,05%, who's there to say that his system isn't a good one? For sure, there are better out there, far better. (Oh and please none of the personal connotations because personally I would not be satisfied with that but that's beside the point).

Again, I ask, where is the line (see also here) and how do you determine what is exceptional and what is not.

 

[PKFFW]

Do you see how you do not understand yet persist in arguing? It is a profitable system, I said it wasn't a good one...

My mistake. I assumed, since your entire argument is that being a profitable trader is something that only the elite few with the "successful trader gene" can ever hope to achieve and that systems "do not work" and that you had reached the ultimate conclusion that "mechanical trading is simply not the way to go about trading", then the system you posted would be an unprofitable one.

Seems odd that you claim systems do not work and yet then post one that if someone were to follow exactly they would be profitable doing so.

So let me get this straight........

The system you gave is profitable. By that I mean, after a sufficient period of time for the edge to play out it will very likely make you money after all costs have been accounted for rather than lose you money. Right?

Now, the system doesn't seem like it takes any quantum physics or maths on the scale of the theory of relativity. It doesn't seem to take some deep understanding of the markets even. Certainly doesn't seem like a genius came up with it. Certainly doesn't seem like a genius would be the only one capable of trading it. About the only special personal quality that would be needed to trade that system would be the discipline to follow it exactly. Discipline is a personality trait that can certainly be developed by anyone who wants to. You don't need to be born with the "discipline gene" in order to have it.

Yet you show that system as though it is proof that 1: mechanical systems do not work, and 2: that it takes some sort of special "successful trader gene" to be successful when clearly if someone were to simply follow your system(that isn't even a very good one) exactly they would very likely end up being profitable.

Maybe you should spoon feed it to me because I certainly don't see how any of that proves your point that a "successful trader gene" is needed to be a profitable trader.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[temptrader]

Perhaps those who share their knowledge and information have a more positive perspective on society and an altruistic approach to life. I doubt ego has anything to do with it. Take trader_dante for example, he has discussed his trading style, strategy and psychology in depth to anyone who wanted to listen without asking anything in return.

new_trade talks about selective altruism, and on that I have to agree. Who do you think Newton, Gauss, Einstein wrote for? How many of the general population can read Principia Mathematica from cover to cover, or Disquisitiones Arithmeticae from cover to cover, or some of the difficult brownian motion papers?

They wrote for the absolute minority, not the vast majority. They were not out to write best sellers and rake in a few million. They refused to be dumbed down to any level. The minority they wrote for are the ones capable of reading their works, and hopefully take it further, for that is the purpose of why those works still exist to this day. It is not of their choosing, or will, who can or cannot understand what they wrote - that's another matter entirely, which they don't dwell on in tedious arguments.

Mr Marcus tried to share, in a way anyway, and all he got here is grief and the mob going down on him until he was forced to delete all posts and stay in the background.

Socrates, yes I have to mention his name, was here too. He did a whole lot more and his "Journey from the Basement" thread is, and I agree with n_t on this one, rather sensational. I was one of the mob attacking him (rather vehemently in fact for a long time). That thread is still there if you want to "learn".:idea:

By your argument, FW, you try to imply that the ones at the top should always try to give some of it away. You'll find out that they do if you look very carefully. But it has unfortunately never crossed your mind that their "sharing" can only work for those that have it in them. And those that don't have it in them, there's nothing they can do about it. And the latter two points are at the heart of this thread, I am sorry to say.

 

[black bear]

Me to

better spoon feed me while he"s at it, sort of multy task

I only use that or should say aware of price action around there and a few more locations and a bit more to make money / profit intra day for well over a year, don"t always use it on the breakout. but its a long way from rocket science imho

Imho trading is not very much different than any other job as long as you............

NEVER FORGET THAT IT IS MONEY

Embrace emotions and learn to live with them, you telling me no one ever gets a wee bit twitchy in other jobs occupations & activities which leads to loss of money / profit ....the bottom line etc

Hell I was told to stop checking the paint match on cars by tipping up the old tins of paint to compare the dried paint with the cars colour so many times I lost count. It will cost you in the long run son, get a spray card out and do the job properly.

ye ye ye yawn yawn

uppppppppppppppppps !!!!!!! lid came off.................

BMW bonnet requires re-painting = cost time and a few hundred quid back in the 80"s

did not do it again in a hurry = NEVER, did not effect my future ability to carry out my trade to a high standard over the next 25 years, and still can just a bit slower

or

Felt a touch nervous or even a lot nervous when just repeating something you now you can do but the cost of getting it wrong is surfacing in your mind.

Just get and work on a personal method to deal with it imho like every other job in the world. There are many jobs all across the pay sector that a mistake will or could cost thousands of pounds at least as a trader you can recieve multiples of the downside risk you are taking on.

At the end of the day if the job is not for you and the pressure is to much and you think pychology is playing a part in your poor performance and even making you un - happy


Its just a bulls..t word imho and is another excuse put forward by many as to how it all went wrong = something to blame it on = not them oh no never is.


Its not a biggggggggggggggy just go and get another job imho.

 

[Paul71]

I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too. What about the people who don't make it, but try thier hardest, how are they going to feel? Some people give a lot of time and effort and money to learn how to trade, but don't quite make it. This 'smear' that anyone with half a brain can do it is down right arrogant, and anyone putting this type of nonsense around should feel ashamed of themselves, it's total lies, smug and vain.

 

[firewalker99]

What are the key factors that determine trading success or failure.. (poll anybody?)

I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too. What about the people who don't make it, but try thier hardest, how are they going to feel? Some people give a lot of time and effort and money to learn how to trade, but don't quite make it. This 'smear' that anyone with half a brain can do it is down right arrogant, and anyone putting this type of nonsense around should feel ashamed of themselves, it's total lies, smug and vain.

Paul, please don't make the same error as newtrader and temptrader by assuming that anyone can do it, because that's not what I said. I said that almost anyone can do it, and that environment factors play an important role in that process. If you're out there trying to trade but have to live with a 10 point spread and 50$ commission on every trade, the odds aren't exactly in your favour. If you have a mentor who will guide you and show you what price levels are more important than others, you can move a step forward. I know of farmers who become traders but had never even touched a computer screen. I'm not going to say that any of this is conclusive proof because it's not.

But more importantly, the reason that those who gave it a lot of time and effort quit or gave up, is because they failed to come up with a profitable strategy but they couldn't resist the temptation of trading with real money. So they blew up, or they lost so much money they went down a vicious circle that ultimately led the trader to believe that it's not for him or that he just isn't "amongst the lucky ones".

There are obviously a number of critical factors that determine and can greatly increase or diminish the chances of success. For example, a neurotic person who can't sit on his hands for longer than 2 minutes will probably have more issues than others. Perhaps we should try to determine to key factors that determine trading success. Being born with a 'trading gene' isn't one of them though.

But anyway, let's hear from those who believe traders are born. If they are, than it shouldn't really matter whether they have a strategy or not, because if they're born to be a winner they will make it right? So why not trade on instinct then? I hope that by trying to determine the key factors to trading success this thread can head towards a more sensible discussion and might even lead to a conclusion instead of continuining in circles. Here's to hoping.

 

[black bear]

Anyone can learn' brigade...well thats told us

I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too. What about the people who don't make it, but try thier hardest, how are they going to feel? Some people give a lot of time and effort and money to learn how to trade, but don't quite make it. This 'smear' that anyone with half a brain can do it is down right arrogant, and anyone putting this type of nonsense around should feel ashamed of themselves, it's total lies, smug and vain.

Hi Paul

Ashamed :?: Smug :?:

I am sure you are right and my own future as a trader and my own endevours may amount to nothing at all except I will no I gave 100% as per usual so there will be no regrets when the lids banged shut or I have to go and get a full time job again.

Sorry if I have given that impression to you Paul, you sound angry I would pass on the next trade :cheesy: did not mean to at all

I take the point you have raised very serious, if another is offended by the tone of a post on a forum because their own trading is less than they would hope for..........

Is trading really for them, I would think you need to be a little less sensative and very confident in what you as an inividual are about in order to just stand a glimmer of a chance out there.

You may well and probably are a much better trader than me Paul or the others that say anyone can learn to trade.

"Anyone can learn' brigade"

I think anyone can learn enough to trade reasonably well, good enough to trade in the money most of the time at or around breakeven, manage and trade a fixed bank and not lose it and be constantly topping it up every week.

Safe enough that they have or buy the time to consider the real question

Am I good enough to trade for a living which I think many think is very possible when they start out


"I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too"

I think most of this sites posts are pretty much like that, in that kind of tone, more than 80 % of the content of the site is probably posted by sb firm employee"s looking at some of the Sh..t thats posted, no wonder people struggle to trade when looking at their 1st sb account screen in front of them.

What about anybody who really makes an effort to learn or do anything in life and comes up short.

"Half a brain comment" = imho thats a good tip, it was given to me when I was a young man attempting to learn how to play snooker

Decide what your attempting to do, do it and just play and see how it goes, did not listen at the time and failed completely.

15 Years later I found out it was very good advice indeed and made my 1st 100 break and became part of a reasonably good snooker side which achieved and even moved on a little to have a go at playing county level without myself, far to late by then of course.

 

[Mathemagician]

I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too. What about the people who don't make it, but try thier hardest, how are they going to feel? Some people give a lot of time and effort and money to learn how to trade, but don't quite make it. This 'smear' that anyone with half a brain can do it is down right arrogant, and anyone putting this type of nonsense around should feel ashamed of themselves, it's total lies, smug and vain.

Sorry it didn't work out for you.

jj

 

[Paul71]

So it's ok to label one side of the arguement, elitest, egotistical, and all that, but when the tables are turned the 'other' side takes thier ball inside and refuses to play by thier own rules. Mmmm, it's obvious that one side have poor loser mentality, and so go on to state that everyones a winner. He he he!

 

[Paul71]

Sorry it didn't work out for you.

jj

It nearly never. But the jeans shone through in the end! My favourite trading jeans are my old Brutus nail flares.:cheesy:

 

[Mathemagician]

Lol!

 

[temptrader]

I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too. What about the people who don't make it, but try thier hardest, how are they going to feel? Some people give a lot of time and effort and money to learn how to trade, but don't quite make it. This 'smear' that anyone with half a brain can do it is down right arrogant, and anyone putting this type of nonsense around should feel ashamed of themselves, it's total lies, smug and vain.

Look out the window Paul. As Socrates would say, you see people digging roads, driving buses, cleaning the streets, sitting at desks, commuting to meetings that they are late for, etc. . . . All tied to a 9 - 5 obligation. Some of them can make it to be consistently profitable - but the vast majority, no. That is why they are still tied to their 9 - 5 obligations, and/or think about buying systems, or dabble in property seminars, or get rich quick schemes. Even if the best traders (which does not include myself since I don't make that much, only enough not to be on a 9 - 5, but understand what it involves), were to try to help them, it would still be a fact that only a tiny minority will make it.

We could talk all day about "lack of motivation", giving up too early, lack of drive or perseverance etc . . . or about genes and the environment etc. . . enough to bore anyone to tears.

People in the "anyone can do it" brigade usually have something to sell. People who can't trade sometimes write books to the great detriment of all, where they waffle to their readership.

And then, there are those like some on this thread. They are insecure about whether they can make it or not. They are either losing (most of them), breaking even or mildly profitable. They want to seek reassurance from the successful traders that they are going to make it, and delude themselves with bits of information taken from various sources to make themselves feel better. They will argue their points across until they're blue in the face, because they seem to have some emotional need for everyone to tell them that they are right

 

[mp6140]

I find the 'Anyone can learn' brigade rather patronising and condescending, and smug too. What about the people who don't make it, but try thier hardest, how are they going to feel? Some people give a lot of time and effort and money to learn how to trade, but don't quite make it. This 'smear' that anyone with half a brain can do it is down right arrogant, and anyone putting this type of nonsense around should feel ashamed of themselves, it's total lies, smug and vain.

=======================================================

while a bunch of people around here are backing down from the "anyone can be taught to trade" philosophy, having had experience with many a "simeon like" person over the years, I will stand by the statement forever.

Now, HOW GOOD they become is due to all factors people have been micro analyzing here, but on the macro side, trading is simply NOT that hard and can be taught.

what happens to most who spend time, effort and money to learn is that they are learning by THEMSELVES --- and not all people are capable of spending enough time, or picking up the RIGHT information to find success !

The only criteria for the "teacher" is SOME form of success as the new person to trading will have to have "some" level of competence to emulate ---- Einstein was, first and foremost, a teacher but few are those who rose to his level of conciousness but ill bet a lot walked out of his classes knowing more than when they started !

In mathematics and most anything else in this world, one must seperate those who can be taught to add and subtract numbers from those who go on to Einsteins classes ----- I firmly believe anyone of normal intelligence with no learning disabilities can be taught to trade --- How high on a scale of 1 - 100 they go is up to their individual "talents", of which most have been already stated !

enjoy and discuss well

mp