Psychology... the poll

[firewalker99]

Trading is obviously not as easy as the liberals would like you to think it is, the markets don't seem to adhere to political correctness like your local council may. The markets are dog eat dog, no prisoners, no let up. Hobby trading, demo accs, it's rubbish.

Don't listen to me though, i may jack it all in next week, this easy trading lark may not be for me.

No one said it was easy Paul. In fact, I'd be the first to admit trading has been the most difficult endeavour I've ever tried. But you don't need to be a rocket scientist either.

Declaring that traders are born and others not, is a good way of avoiding responsibility for one's failure though (this isn't directed at anyone in particular). The reason why most apiring traders fail is because they are trading without a strategy or plan but on instead instinct and feelings.

 

[temptrader]

Copying doesn't involve, require or lead to understanding...do you see or do you not see? You can copy and paste Einstein’s theories here and it may make you appear intelligent, but can you really explain them in your own words? Would you really understand them? By copying would you have gained an understanding that would allow you to solve other cosmic conundrums like the theory of everything?

Verifying a proof of a theorem is usually a triviality. Producing a proof of a theorem that no one has proved before is NOT. Trading is very much like the latter, not the former.

Oh, and er, good luck with your poetry new_trader. I was thinking of getting into film making.

 

[Paul71]

No one said it was easy Paul. In fact, I'd be the first to admit trading has been the most difficult endeavour I've ever tried. But you don't need to be a rocket scientist either.

Declaring that traders are born and others not, is a good way of avoiding responsibility for one's failure though (this isn't directed at anyone in particular). The reason why most apiring traders fail is because they are trading without a strategy or plan but on instead instinct and feelings.

When a child is born (Johnny Mathis):cheesy:, there is no telling wether or not it is a trader or the next Einstien, but within it's genetic make-up it may possess attributes that give it an 'edge' over the next born child.

To be honest FW, you and your camp can't really prove your point:cheesy:. The 'traders are born' camp have at least given examples we can all relate to, even if only using past T2W members who have 'dropped out' at some point. Einstien was not a trader, and Newton remarked that he just couldn't understand the madness of people when losing money on the markets, two more examples.

Your arguement is sloppy FW, you must try harder!:cheesy:

 

[Mathemagician]

Einstein and Newton weren't plumbers either. Does that mean plumbers are born and not made?

jj

 

[new_trader]

No one said it was easy Paul. In fact, I'd be the first to admit trading has been the most difficult endeavour I've ever tried. But you don't need to be a rocket scientist either.

Declaring that traders are born and others not, is a good way of avoiding responsibility for one's failure though (this isn't directed at anyone in particular). The reason why most apiring traders fail is because they are trading without a strategy or plan but on instead instinct and feelings.

The thing I find annoying about your view and those that share your view FW is the constant references to a nebulous 'strategy or plan'.

Just to throw another analogy into the fire, can anyone be a software programmer? Yes, anyone can learn a programming language because they aren't that complicated. Can anyone develop an encryption algorithm which has no effective cryptanalysis? Why don’t you try it? Prove to me that anyone can achieve what they want as long as they have a plan or strategy.

Why is it that people in these debates always appear to have trouble understanding the differences between intelligence, knowledge, learning and wisdom?

 

[Paul71]

Einstein and Newton weren't plumbers either. Does that mean plumbers are born and not made?

jj

Maybe. Plumb2Win, doesn't quite have the same ring to it, that's because plumbing is straight forward, anyone can learn it, that's why they teach it at college.

 

[new_trader]

Einstein and Newton weren't plumbers either. Does that mean plumbers are born and not made?

jj

Einstein and Newton probably could have been plumbers if they wanted to be. Show me a plumber that could have been a successful trader or leading scientist but actually chose plumbing because that is what they wanted to do. I'm sure everyone working at a supermarket checkout chose that profession ...you get discounts on groceries :-0

 

[firewalker99]

When a child is born (Johnny Mathis):cheesy:, there is no telling wether or not it is a trader or the next Einstien, but within it's genetic make-up it may possess attributes that give it an 'edge' over the next born child.

To be honest FW, you and your camp can't really prove your point:cheesy:. The 'traders are born' camp have at least given examples we can all relate to, even if only using past T2W members who have 'dropped out' at some point. Einstien was not a trader, and Newton remarked that he just couldn't understand the madness of people when losing money on the markets, two more examples.

Your arguement is sloppy FW, you must try harder!:cheesy:

I don't know if I could conclusively prove to you that traders are made, not born. But then again, I never said I could. Neither can the 'traders are born' camp prove that the opposite is fact. The only examples you've given are people who have dropped out at some point. If 80 or 90% of traders fail to make it in the end, than it's obviously easy to pick a few who failed... It's flawed logic to conclude out of this that traders are born.

It's not because my neighbour tells me he doesn't understand why his stock suddenly plunged, that the reason why is stock plunged can only be understood be a select few. Even if you assume that a very conservative percentage, say 5%, of all traders is profitable, you'd still come up with a rather large group of people over time.

You could set up a controlled experiment in which a group of people are trained to become traders. Let's assume that none of those have prior knowledge of the market or anything related to that. Each member is given the exact same books, tools, charts, etc, etc. After a couple of months each of them is interviewed to determine their progress or lack of success. Who do you think will have succeeded? The odds are fairly high that those who were challenged by the topic are those who put in the most hours and didn't quit after the first setback. Getting past the phase when painstaking effort doesn't seem to lead to any results is what separates those who do make it from those who don't. Not quitting in the face of adversity is what makes trader A different from trader B.

By taking the stand that traders are born, you're basically saying that 'luck' plays a major factor in one's life and in the markets.

 

[Paul71]

Einstein and Newton probably could have been plumbers if they wanted to be. Show me a plumber that could have been a successful trader or leading scientist but actually chose plumbing because that is what they wanted to do. I'm sure everyone working at a supermarket checkout chose that profession ...you get discounts on groceries :-0

Spot on!

 

[Mathemagician]

Maybe. Plumb2Win, doesn't quite have the same ring to it, that's because plumbing is straight forward, anyone can learn it, that's why they teach it at college.

They teach physics and mathematics at college. By your argument they are therefore straightforward and anyone can learn them. You have contradicted yourself.

Everyone has a personal limit to their potential at ANY endeavor they choose to pursue. Environment and effort determine achievement up to this level. In trading, with instruction almost anyone can achieve some level of profitability. What level they actually do achieve is dependent upon both their inherent potential and the environment in which they operate.

jj

 

[firewalker99]

Maybe. Plumb2Win, doesn't quite have the same ring to it, that's because plumbing is straight forward, anyone can learn it, that's why they teach it at college.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! So plumbing is easy and anyone can learn it.

How about driving a car?
How about solving a differential equation?
How about ...
...
...
...
How about trading?
...
...
Where is the line and more importantly, how do you determine who gets to cross the line and who doesn't?

 

[Paul71]

They teach physics and mathematics at college. By your argument they are therefore straightforward and anyone can learn them. You have contradicted yourself.


I haven't, most people can 'do' basic math, by your arguement, what is basic trading?

 

[Lee Shepherd]

Unfortunately new trader, you are correct.

People do chose these proffessions whether its cleaning, teaching or trading..or teaching trading because its either what they want to do or more often than not..It's the easier option.

Nearly everyone in life gets knock backs, some take it harder than others and then decide to go with the easier of the two options...Do I continue in the face of failure or settle for what others do. (the safer option)

Trying to tell family and friends (more so if not financially successful themselves) that your embarking on a new career that could earn serious money but also has serious amount of learning to do can beg the question, why?..Then when one fails, all you hear is, "told you so". Sometimes this is borne out of jealousy, mostly through ignorance that it cannot be achieved.

None of us at school wanted to be plumbers and cleaners but unfortunately this is how it often becomes. I personally find it very sad that when talking to a child you hear of many dreams only to be squashed by adults that say it's not possible. When they become older, society itself moulds them into workers for the rich. Only the 'insane' go on to achieve many great things in life. And around it goes.

 

[Paul71]

Trying to tell family and friends (more so if not financially successful themselves) that your embarking on a new career that could earn serious money but also has serious amount of learning to do can beg the question, why?..Then when one fails, all you hear is, "told you so". Sometimes this is borne out of jealousy, mostly through ignorance that it cannot be achieved.


That's it, that's the gene pool, that's the box that only some choose to think outside of. But it's not easy. I say choose, where did the 'drive' come from in the first place.

 

[new_trader]

They teach physics and mathematics at college. By your argument they are therefore straightforward and anyone can learn them. You have contradicted yourself.


I haven't, most people can 'do' basic math, by your arguement, what is basic trading?

More importantly, can you teach something which cannot be taught? You can teach someone medicine but can you teach them to be a brilliant surgeon?

When people say "teach someone to trade" what they mean is "Teach someone else as much as they know about trading".

 

[Lee Shepherd]

Paul,

Of course Genes can have something to do with it, but not all people have been derived from rich/successful people. The times rich list will detail this.

It is however, easier to become successful if you have successful backers (parents/family ect). This is not always the answer although having the right instruments/setups in life makes it easier but not guaranteed.

I can only ever pick on one (albeit crude) example at a time but if we look at Richard Branson as one then this illustrates something from nothing. Theres obviously many an example of this. We could also look at many others that just cream off Daddies success.

Genes or having the right instruments, ie, like having hands to play the guitar helps but is not always neccessary to be 'successful' in your own life.

What I'm trying to say, and of course I have no evidence of this whatsoever other than what I would like to believe is - Anyone can achieve anything to there own standard of success, I would say I'm successful in trading, George Soros may see this a little different.
None of family (bar my dad who trades small stock only) has ever been in this kind of game. My dad infact doesn't grasp anything I do through not understanding that a living can be made.
My 'success' cannot be put down to genes, nor would I wish my hard work be attributed to this. I would like to believe that the hard work I've done and continue to do is attributable to me and me only. Of course if my Dad was a mathmatician this would help me enormously, he's not, I never paid attention at school and my maths are unmarkable. Nothing in the genes, I just bought a calculator to aid. Just like the guy who will never win a marathon, until he gets his artificial leg. Or married if your Heather Mills.

Being born into family success or having the 'right' genes obviously gives one a great head start and an edge but does not mean they'll carry it forward.

Being born into a family of poverty or having the 'wrong' genes can certainly hinder but does not guarantee failure.

We are all capable if we believe to achieve the things we want to a reasonable standard to which we call success. Others of course have different views.

 

[Paul71]

More importantly, can you teach something which cannot be taught? You can teach someone medicine but can you teach them to be a brilliant surgeon?

When people say "teach someone to trade" what they mean is "Teach someone else as much as they know about trading".

Exactly. Some traders can only trade one certain time frame and set up, some traders take points out of the market on an hourly basis and see a lot more opportunities, is the difference between the two tangible, i say not, it can't be taught in it's entirity.

 

[firewalker99]

More importantly, can you teach something which cannot be taught? You can teach someone medicine but can you teach them to be a brilliant surgeon?

When people say "teach someone to trade" what they mean is "Teach someone else as much as they know about trading".

A coach or a mentor (part of the environment) doesn't necessarily want to bring his 'method' over to another person. But yes, most of the time they do. I'm sure you know that

What you are talking about is experience. Indeed, practice and more practice. Hundreds and thousands of hours, in any endeavour, trading, sports, etc. Can I teach someone how to drive? Sure, but they won't really get to shift gears fluenty until they've put in the necessary hours.

Nice to see you agreeing with me after all

 

[firewalker99]

None of us at school wanted to be plumbers and cleaners but unfortunately this is how it often becomes. I personally find it very sad that when talking to a child you hear of many dreams only to be squashed by adults that say it's not possible. When they become older, society itself moulds them into workers for the rich. Only the 'insane' go on to achieve many great things in life. And around it goes.

A correct and accurate depiction of the world we live in :|
Wise post.

Unfortunately most of us never think to question what we've been told and taught as children, but rather 'go with the flow'. We'd rather believe that we don't have the skills to perform this or that task and that others are more talented than us, rather than take responsibility and admit to the real reasons for failure.

 

[new_trader]

A coach or a mentor (part of the environment) doesn't necessarily want to bring his 'method' over to another person. But yes, most of the time they do. I'm sure you know that

What you are talking about is experience. Indeed, practice and more practice. Hundreds and thousands of hours, in any endeavour, trading, sports, etc.

Looks like you are agreeing with me after all

Not at all, you have misunderstood and this is now getting laborious and tedious. It is beyond me how such a simple concept can be so constantly misunderstood. Do you honestly think that if you sat a chimpanzee in front of a computer and showed it exactly how YOU trade that it will understand? Why not? If you understand why not then maybe you have hope of understanding what I’m saying, maybe....

If you honestly think that anyone can become a successful trader then no doubt you think it also applies to our nearest relative....

This argument is unbelievably and mind bogglingly tedious...