Psychology... the poll

[temptrader]

As from my own personal experience (which doesn't really matter when trying to objectively analyze the concept), but yes, I can definitely say it's true. Compare my first posts here with those from about 15 months later. I'm amazed at the progress I've made and how differently I look at a chart now. If not to the outside world, I've proven to myself to be quite capable of attaining a highly enough level to distinguish myself from the majority. The only cause for this is the hundreds if not thousands hours of screentime and painstaking efforts. I'm positively sure a lot of people would've given much and in fact, a lot of people do.

So what about the educational system? We put individuals from the age of 9 onwards to route learning. If they pass certain stages they get to higher and higher levels of learning. If they work hard they would have put in thousands of hours etc . . . . At uni they will read for a specialist subject and if they are good enough they go onto research. Again, thousands and thousands of hours spent studying. Strange that the vast majority of people who go through this don't make much of themselves, it's only the exceptional few. And this has been happening for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, with individuals numbering the billions.

Of course you make progress when you learn something. Same way that people who play the piano makes progress with constant, disciplined practice. Doesn't mean that they are going to be exceptional.

 

[firewalker99]

God, you crack me up. Hint: who do you think the strong hands are, eh?

I'm sorry, but whether some forces are stronger than other has absolutely nothing to do with the way the organizational structures are set up. Even in an anarchy some people will be able to exercise more influence than others.

You must have totally misunderstood my post. Whether there are stronger or weaker hands at play is irrelevant. Fact is that everybody is free to engage in transactions with another party, and the regulations and rules are the same for each person(1).

Tell me, what hierarchy is there in a free market? Most of us would think of the market as an auction. If you have a different view of it, feel free to share it

(1) Footnote: Well, almost but that's let's not go into the financial or legislational rulebook).

 

[firewalker99]

So what about the educational system? We put individuals from the age of 9 onwards to route learning. If they pass certain stages they get to higher and higher levels of learning. If they work hard they would have put in thousands of hours etc . . . . At uni they will read for a specialist subject and if they are good enough they go onto research. Again, thousands and thousands of hours spent studying. Strange that the vast majority of people who go through this don't make much of themselves, it's only the exceptional few. And this has been happening for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, with individuals numbering the billions.

It's not because you haven't heard of them, that they don't "make much of themselves". It depends what your definitions are in order to become exceptional. What you are talking about is about distinguishing yourself from the crowd on some kind of grandeur scale. But a lot of people manage to excel in what they do each and every day, albeit in their own environment.

Besides, from all those who have gone through all the different layers of college, how many are interested in becoming the center of attention? I'm sure we can all think of people who have attained a certain level of knowledge or have practiced their ability to outshine others. But like I said before, environment plays a big role. Perhaps you or I could be the best aircraft pilots in the world. But unless we have the money to pay for our education, we won't find out.

As for the educational system in global, I'll be more than happy to share my views on that, but it'll probably need another thread or two!

 

[mp6140]

No, it's not. Very few make it in this profession because they don't have what it takes. It's got nothing to do with feeling special at all. It's just the way it is.

And in case you don't understand what I'm trying to say: Nature does not confer gifts equally. It is totally fair and impartial in that sense, because she does as she pleases, and is not influenced by anyone. And hence it is not my place, nor anyone else's, to say who's going to be profitable and make it or who won't. And no, not anyone who practices hard enough could become profitable, because from your reason alone anyone could do it and that is clearly not the case at all. Hard work and diligent study are necessary conditions, unfortunately they are NOT sufficient.

What you can have is different degrees of success. I personally know of a few academics who spent decades in chairs and don't produce groundbreaking research but their institute still lets them hold their positions. And it's not for want of trying either, since they are probably the hardest working individuals I know. That's just how life is.

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i loves discussions concerning "how many angels . . . . . . . etc !"

i firmly believe, given normal intelligence and no unreasonable mental impediments, that ANYONE can be taught to trade with varying degrees of success --- now WHETHER OR NOT they wish to learn is certainly something else for discussion and WHERE they end up on a scale is certainly influenced by processes and situations beyond our control at times, but i shall stick to my thoughts that ANYONE can learn to trade !

As you state, and i agree --- HOW WELL THEY DO IS ANOTHER MATTER !

mp

 

[Paul71]

Teach trading @ school, only got Ds in your results don't worry we'll teach you how to trade. All them unemployed people, people on the sick and that, the government should set up trading camps, get everyone involved. Lags in jail, all trading away in their cells....come on everyone start trading now, anyone can learn, it's easy! The government would make a killing with the revenues created through tax.

Goldmansachs advertisements for trader positiions: Don't worry if you're not ivy league, our monkey see - monkey do policy keeps everyone happy.....apply within today!

 

[temptrader]

It's not because you haven't heard of them, that they don't "make much of themselves". It depends what your definitions are in order to become exceptional. What you are talking about is about distinguishing yourself from the crowd on some kind of grandeur scale. But a lot of people manage to excel in what they do each and every day, albeit in their own environment.

Besides, from all those who have gone through all the different layers of college, how many are interested in becoming the center of attention? I'm sure we can all think of people who have attained a certain level of knowledge or have practiced their ability to outshine others. But like I said before, environment plays a big role. Perhaps you or I could be the best aircraft pilots in the world. But unless we have the money to pay for our education, we won't find out.

As for the educational system in global, I'll be more than happy to share my views on that, but it'll probably need another thread or two!

I have never, for a second, implied that those with the potential would want to conquer the world - where have I said that? It's up to the individual to decide what to do with his life and his abilities. This does not change the fact that there are very few of them.

Perhaps you or I could be the best aircraft pilots in the world.

erm, yes. And perhaps Jessica Stam would realise that I'm the perfect match for her if she got to know me? And perhaps you and PKFFW would meet one another and find out that you are perfect for one another, given your mutual interest in fire (one walking and one putting it out - isn't that so complimentary). We could go on this game all night. Both events are possible, just not very probable (but here's hoping the former is), and maybe a lot of people hope the latter is too.:-0

 

[firewalker99]

Teach trading @ school, only got Ds in your results don't worry we'll teach you how to trade. All them unemployed people, people on the sick and that, the government should set up trading camps, get everyone involved. Lags in jail, all trading away in their cells....come on everyone start trading now, anyone can learn, it's easy! The government would make a killing with the revenues created through tax.

Goldmansachs advertisements for trader positiions: Don't worry if you're not ivy league, our monkey see - monkey do policy keeps everyone happy.....apply within today!

Paul, you'd be surprised to hear (as was I) that the people who fail at trading often got higher degrees and diplomas than those who did succeed. This one is not based on personal experience

 

[mp6140]

Paul, you'd be surprised to hear (as was I) that the people who fail at trading often got higher degrees and diplomas than those who did succeed. This one is not based on personal experience

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one of the actualities of the market in NY was the "father/son" situation, which is changing, but slowly.

rare was the trader who had gone to college, and rarer was one whose father had not done the same or a similar job ---- nepotism runs rampant in the stock exchange and related trading environs

mp

 

[firewalker99]

erm, yes. And perhaps Jessica Stam would realise that I'm the perfect match for her if she got to know me? And perhaps you and PKFFW would meet one another and find out that you are perfect for one another, given your mutual interest in fire (one walking and one putting it out - isn't that so complimentary). We could go on this game all night. Both events are possible, just not very probable (but here's hoping the former is), and maybe a lot of people hope the latter is too.:-0

I'm sure most of Laszlo Polgar's friends and colleagues thought he had no chance of succeeding when he set out to raise his children to become chess players. I wonder how they feel now, after his daughters became world grandmaster. And yes, this is anecdotal evidence. But like I said in previous posts and before this thread, there are plenty of examples out there if one is really interested in understanding why mr x or mss y has become such a genius at what he or she does.

Anyway, all of this probably doesn't belong in this thread, so if moderators want to move it over to somewhere else I'd understand.

 

[firewalker99]

i firmly believe, given normal intelligence and no unreasonable mental impediments, that ANYONE can be taught to trade with varying degrees of success --- now WHETHER OR NOT they wish to learn is certainly something else for discussion and WHERE they end up on a scale is certainly influenced by processes and situations beyond our control at times, but i shall stick to my thoughts that ANYONE can learn to trade !

As you state, and i agree --- HOW WELL THEY DO IS ANOTHER MATTER !

mp

one of the actualities of the market in NY was the "father/son" situation, which is changing, but slowly.

rare was the trader who had gone to college, and rarer was one whose father had not done the same or a similar job ---- nepotism runs rampant in the stock exchange and related trading environs
mp

I can't give you any more reputation points right now, but those are two very straightforward and sensible posts. Anyone who truly wants to believe that trading is only for a select elite has some ego-issues, if you ask me.

 

[mp6140]

I can't give you any more reputation points right now, but those are two very straightforward and sensible posts. Anyone who truly wants to believe that trading is only for a select elite has some ego-issues, if you ask me.

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WHAT -- NO MORE REPUTATION POINTS ---- after becoming rich and semi - famous, its the ego salving reputation points that direct me towards becoming a veteren on this site that drives me to share with all you turkeys --- without those points, it becomes pointless, so to speak !

begone to wherever the ammunition dump for reputation points exists and pick up a truck load and post them ASAP !

GOLLY, the things one has to go thru these days on their way to fame and fortune !

mp

 

[temptrader]

I'm sure most of Laszlo Polgar's friends and colleagues thought he had no chance of succeeding when he set out to raise his children to become chess players. I wonder how they feel now, after his daughters became world grandmaster. And yes, this is anecdotal evidence. But like I said in previous posts and before this thread, there are plenty of examples out there if one is really interested in understanding why mr x or mss y has become such a genius at what he or she does.

Anyway, all of this probably doesn't belong in this thread, so if moderators want to move it over to somewhere else I'd understand.

Listen, don't worry about Laszlo Polgar. You set me up with Jessica Stam and I'll believe anything you like. If you do that, I'll set you up with PKFFW. Can't say fairer than that can we?

 

[mp6140]

Listen, don't worry about Laszlo Polgar. You set me up with Jessica Stam and I'll believe anything you like. If you do that, I'll set you up with PKFFW. Can't say fairer than that can we?

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we are finally degenerating into what we truly are and i see no hope for any of us

mp

 

[Paul71]

I can't give you any more reputation points right now, but those are two very straightforward and sensible posts. Anyone who truly wants to believe that trading is only for a select elite has some ego-issues, if you ask me.

FW, it's not about elitism or ego or anything like that. Some people will naturally find trading easier than others.

Trading is for anyone, but it isn't for everyone. Yes anyone can learn how to trade, supposedly.

You try telling people on this site to get lessons with Grey1, apparently his day trading is amazing. All you need then is an account,....sell the house!

You know the score bud, most people on this site would never borrow money to trade with, why? Psychology, yeh ok, come on FW you are too nice a guy to tell people the truth that's your problem.

Speak soon mate.

 

[temptrader]

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we are finally degenerating into what we truly are and i see no hope for any of us

mp

nope, there's absolutely no hope for me . . . :cheesy:

 

[PKFFW]

I'm not going to bother quoting specific posts in order to respond individually. There have just been too many posts over night. Instead I'd like to just point out a few general things.

1: n_t, temptrader and all the others in the "born not made" brigade, you are simply not responding to my point but rather are arguing your viewpoint from extremes.

You talk about "born not made" and then bring up examples such as Einstein, Newton, Galileo etc to prove your point. All these men are geniuses of their field. I have specifically and repeatedly said I am talking only about becoming a "profitable trader" and not about becoming a genius trader. You are not making any sort of distinction between the two.

Lets take this artist analogy that was brought up by temp or n_t. Do you honestly believe that after 5 or 10 years of practice and classes and instruction you would not achieve some level of proficiency in the skills of an artist? You would be no better at brushwork, colour selection, depth perception, perspective etc than when you started? Do you think that if you diligently practiced for 5-10 years, 3-4 hours a day, you would not, at the end, be able to paint a passable landscape feature or still life or maybe even a bit of a portrait?

Am I suggesting you could become the next Van Gough? No. But surely you don't think you would be at exactly the same skill level as a painter as when you started your training? If you answer yes to that you are either being intentionally deceptive or are just a little bit deluded.

Another example brought up was Tiger Woods. There are many a golf player out there that trains hard and enters tournaments each week or month and earn their living playing golf. According to your logic they can't call themselves a professional golfer because they have not attained the level of mastership displayed by Tiger Woods. Science is the same, many scientists out there earning their living doing research, conducting experiements and writing papers. They will never achieve the level of Newton or Einstein. Are you saying that they can't be considered scientists? Scientists are born not made right? You need to be an Einstein to truly get this idea blah blah blah.

2: Talking of genius it is interesting that n_t and temp seem so adament that genius is something that one is born with. Every single example of genius each of you have brought up is of someone that has worked their butt off many hours a day, every day of their life to achieve that genius. Yet you still sit there and say it is something that one is either born with or isn't. How can you be so absolutely sure that they are born with this genius? Specially when you can't seem to come up with a single example of a genius that was just simply a genius and didn't have to work hard to achieve that genius status? In fact the only common link amongst all these examples of genius you come up with is the fact that each of them have worked harder than anyone else in their field to achieve that genius. From a purely scientific viewpoint it is far more likely this common trait is the cause of their genius than some undetectable difference at birth that they all share but that no one can identify. I am yet to hear of any person who has not worked hard at all and yet has been hailed a genius. I am yet to hear of any research that shows the Joe Schmoe down the road who has sat on his couch each day drinking beer is actually a genius and just hasn't developed his talents yet.

See you are presenting a hypothesis and yet have not come up with any concrete evidence in support of that hypothesis. You have not given any examples that prove that these geniuses where somehow born different to the rest of us. All you have done is state your opinion that it must be so. You argue that if it wasn't so then everyone would be a genius. Of course this simply isn't the case because not everyone puts in the effot to achieve that genius. At least FW has provided links to research that supports his view. That is more than either of you have done.

3: Is trading something everyone can do? It seems that n_t, temp, rols and Paul71 all believe that because many people fail at becoming a profitable trader this is proof that profitable trading is something that requires a special skill one must be born with in order to achieve.

This is a classic example of seeing a causal link where none exists. It is akin to suggesting that after the first 5000 times Edison failed to invent the electric light bulb he had therefore proven that it was impossible to invent the electric light bulb.

The reasons for failure are many and varied. The fact that someone has failed does not prove that there is some sort of special skill they needed to be born with that they do not have and can not cultivate. It is not proof that whatever caused them to fail isn't something they may have been able to overcome had they tried harder. You would like to believe it does constitute this proof and you are entitled to that belief. I'm just telling you that the belief is fundamentally flawed.

By the way, I never said trading was easy and that everyone who tried could instantly start making money. I never even said that anyone who tried to succeed at trading would succeed. Quite obviously many do not.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[temptrader]

PKFFW,

I would like to read your post, but unfortunately we've all belaboured the points to death already. So on that note, I think it's my duty to you to offer you dating advice: you and FW are made for each other. I mean, just look at just how much you two have in common: you put out fires, and he walks on them. A match made in heaven if I may point out.

 

[rols]

3: It seems that n_t, temp, rols and Paul71 all believe that because many people fail at becoming a profitable trader this is proof that profitable trading is something that requires a special skill one must be born with in order to achieve.

This is a classic example of seeing a causal link where none exists. It is akin to suggesting that after the first 5000 times Edison failed to invent the electric light bulb he had therefore proven that it was impossible to invent the electric light bulb.

The reasons for failure are many and varied. The fact that someone has failed does not prove that there is some sort of special skill they needed to be born with that they do not have and can not cultivate. It is not proof that whatever caused them to fail isn't something they may have been able to overcome had they tried harder. You would like to believe it does constitute this proof and you are entitled to that belief. I'm just telling you that the belief is fundamentally flawed.

By the way, I never said trading was easy and that everyone who tried could instantly start making money. I never even said that anyone who tried to succeed at trading would succeed. Quite obviously many do not.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Please do not present a diluted edited version of what was actually presented and then use this to boost an already failing hypothesis. Take the time to read some of the previous posts and you will find the substance of this argument is somewhat less monochrome than the black and white version you seem determined to present.

Also, for the record, Edison did not invent the lightbulb.

Therefore 'failing 5000 times' to invent something which had already been invented 50 years previously does not really serve well as an analogy to correct us on our supposed assumptions on what it takes to become a successful trader.

Perhaps, here is something that we can agree on? Namely, that the gathering of the right information and using it well are one of the necessities for a successful trader?

QED

 

[firewalker99]

PKFFW,

I would like to read your post, but unfortunately we've all belaboured the points to death already. So on that note, I think it's my duty to you to offer you dating advice: you and FW are made for each other. I mean, just look at just how much you two have in common: you put out fires, and he walks on them. A match made in heaven if I may point out.

Listen, don't worry about Laszlo Polgar. You set me up with Jessica Stam and I'll believe anything you like. If you do that, I'll set you up with PKFFW. Can't say fairer than that can we?

Yes PKFFW and myself do seem to have some things in common. For example, we like to debate reason with reason instead of bringing anecdotal personal references or feelings into play. Also, we tend to back up our opinions and stay on topic rather and respond to arguments rather then play ball on the personal level. But anyway, it looks like we've exhausted your braincells for today, so there's little point in continuining this discussion. Not that there was in the first place.

Oh and talking about braincells, I remember the discussion about the brain being fixed at birth etc. I then posted references to neurogenesis but you (correctly- for a change) said that these studies were still inconclusive. Looks like some progress has been made on the matter: scientists witness neurogenesis. I'm sure your own scientific research will no doubt prove me wrong. Do send me a copy of your esteemed publications while you're at it.

 

[firewalker99]

Perhaps, here is something that we can agree on? Namely, that the gathering of the right information and using it well are one of the necessities for a successful trader?

QED

Although PKFFW's post indeed contains some minor faults, the point he was making is a valid one. As for gathering the right information (and this not directed towards you rols), there's a whole lot of "opinion gathering" being done on this thread, but not a whole lot of "fact presenting".