Price, (Volume), Support, Resistance, Demand, Supply . . .

Splitlink said:
Forecasting is- for how long, in your opinion? Personally, I look on forecasting of more than a few days (and I'm being generous, here) as being practically impossible. There are too many unknown factors involved. Even this week we have had a panic at London's airports and could anyone tell me how the Middle East ceasefire will pan out?
I think you are being too generous. I am happy with less and I think this is a reasonable period to determine the direction of movement and the likely extent of it based on S/R

Longer term we might identify trends, S/R levels and deduce the intentions of syndicates etc. These might be indications to follow a particular trading instrument more closely to take advantage of particular setup conditions that occur.

Splitlink said:
I follow my trade and move my stop up behind it. There seems to me nothing more that can be done. The assessments that posters make on this thread suit me because they make sense. A trader is entering his trade because he thinks that his share is going to move in a certain direction. His reasoning has led him to that conclusion and another poster will question that reasoning and cause the trader to think in another way. But no one can know what the outcome will , truly, be.
[ /QUOTE]
Seems very sensible
Splitlink said:
If he is wrong he must get out. We all have varied reasons for doing what we do- If a trend trader thinks his trade may last for a week or so he can do nothing more than follow it as it moves, All this reasoning that it is going to go to a support level in a month or so and then go sideways before moving up so many pence is not being practical and he cannot think that far ahead.
Split
Which is what I assumed Db meant about real-time. Watching the market and seeing what it is telling you, using your plan to inform you but not to constrict you.

Charlton
 
Charlton said:
I think you are being too generous. I am happy with less and I think this is a reasonable period to determine the direction of movement and the likely extent of it based on S/R

Longer term we might identify trends, S/R levels and deduce the intentions of syndicates etc. These might be indications to follow a particular trading instrument more closely to take advantage of particular setup conditions that occur.

Which is what I assumed Db meant about real-time. Watching the market and seeing what it is telling you, using your plan to inform you but not to constrict you.

Charlton

Ah Charlton I am glad you are getting to the truth of all of this and as previously stated I share your chorus sheet.

I hold positions for on average no longer than two hours and adapt my set ups on a day to day basis depending on market conditions. Sometimes I use primarily set-ups using S+R and price action as DB does and other times adapt a more intuitive approach taking little notice of charts. There is also another equally important factor which is money management and this varies from day to day too though most of the time I employ extremely tight stops. This style of trading works for me.

I have no interest or ability in becoming the Mystic Meg of the markets.
 
dbphoenix said:
No, this is not what I'm saying at all. It does matter how you "get to the scene of the action" and, no, there is no option to abandon the trading plan. If one succumbs to that, there's no point in going to the trouble of creating a plan in the first place.

The "forecast" group may be a crowd-pleaser and may leave some observers "breathless", but all of this has to be translated into real-time action, and the forecast group invariably comes up short in this regard. They're good at telling you what you should have done, but are nowhere to be found when someone wants to know what to do now.

Hindsight riches appeal to the same gullibility that reigned in '99/'00, and the results are no different. Yet it seems so easy . . .

Db
As a reformed forecaster might I say that as of right now, 12:58 PDT (3:58 EDT) the probability that GOOG wil close the AM gap, is and has been for some time today = 0.972.
But will it?
ljey
 
Splitlink said:
Forecasting is- for how long, in your opinion? Personally, I look on forecasting of more than a few days (and I'm being generous, here) as being practically impossible.

There are too many unknown factors involved.


Even this week we have had a panic at London's airports and could anyone tell me how the Middle East ceasefire will pan out?



Split
No, we can't....but there again.... we are the wrong people to ask.
 
Post 920 outcome
Blast!! It didn't. The only other time that I have recorded that the AM opening price gap (for a gap up from the prior day's close) did not close under circumstances comparable (in many aspects) to those of today, was on December 20, 2005 - another George Douglass Taylor "Short Sell Day". Hmmmmm, I wonder what that means?
ljey
PS: From 920 post - "Some time" = 63-64 minutes
 
barjon said:
Anyone wondering what's happened to the last few day's worth of posts - they've been moved to firewalkers journal http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=20562 since they are more relevant to that than the primary topic of this thread.

jon

O.K WHAT IS THE PRIMARY TOPIC, TO ENGAGE IN ENDLESS GENERAL DISCUSSION WITH HARDLY ANY PRACTICAL EXAMPLES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porks
db quote,

'You're not going to get anywhere until you stop waiting around for somebody to tell you what to do and start the work. If you have absolutely no idea how to locate a pattern, try the First Steps forum. Or hire a mentor. But all of these "what would you do" questions are pointless.'

I think you're wrong here....it's not pointless at all.

Learning by example is effective for many people.

But hey it's your thread so up to you.

Just consider whether your approach is working, because although your theoritical explanations make a lot of sense, turning this into a profitable approach seems very difficult, even for those who are willing to study the market until their eyes bleed.



Porks.

1. You are right Porks& FW in many ways, although there is quite a lot to learn regarding P/V on this thread, it can be quite daunting for relative newbies.

2. Interesting to note that there are over 900posts in here with hardly any examples of real live trades or practical applications, however whenever a general topic is posted(setups, forecasting, expectancy blah,blah,blah), suddenly everybody emerges out of their caves to engage in esoteric ratiocinations, but if a chart is put up with a question "what next", deafening silence , adopt the familiar strategy, bombard and grill the chap who posted it in the first place with questions without bothering to provide some pointers.

3.If folks really believe that their "Edge" is unique to them and that even if they explained it, others would not automatically be able to implement it without real hard grind, then there should not be any problem posting them. Whichever instrument you are trading , the principles of demand and supply work across the board on any timeframe, why not put up a chart of yesterday , marking the relevant S/R levels, then during the day post a couple of realtime trades, with some explanation, others will then be encouraged to follow the same route generating much more worthwhile practical discussions.
4. This must surely lead to exchange of ideas, tactics, and enhance one's own trading, not to mention the benefit the newbies would derive.

A CANLDE DOES NOT LOSE ITS BRIGHTNESS BY LIGHTING ANOTHER CANDLE
 
SIMA said:
O.K WHAT IS THE PRIMARY TOPIC, TO ENGAGE IN ENDLESS GENERAL DISCUSSION WITH HARDLY ANY PRACTICAL EXAMPLES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porks
db quote,

'You're not going to get anywhere until you stop waiting around for somebody to tell you what to do and start the work. If you have absolutely no idea how to locate a pattern, try the First Steps forum. Or hire a mentor. But all of these "what would you do" questions are pointless.'

I think you're wrong here....it's not pointless at all.

Learning by example is effective for many people.

But hey it's your thread so up to you.

Just consider whether your approach is working, because although your theoritical explanations make a lot of sense, turning this into a profitable approach seems very difficult, even for those who are willing to study the market until their eyes bleed.



Porks.

1. You are right Porks& FW in many ways, although there is quite a lot to learn regarding P/V on this thread, it can be quite daunting for relative newbies.

2. Interesting to note that there are over 900posts in here with hardly any examples of real live trades or practical applications, however whenever a general topic is posted(setups, forecasting, expectancy blah,blah,blah), suddenly everybody emerges out of their caves to engage in esoteric ratiocinations, but if a chart is put up with a question "what next", deafening silence , adopt the familiar strategy, bombard and grill the chap who posted it in the first place with questions without bothering to provide some pointers.

3.If folks really believe that their "Edge" is unique to them and that even if they explained it, others would not automatically be able to implement it without real hard grind, then there should not be any problem posting them. Whichever instrument you are trading , the principles of demand and supply work across the board on any timeframe, why not put up a chart of yesterday , marking the relevant S/R levels, then during the day post a couple of realtime trades, with some explanation, others will then be encouraged to follow the same route generating much more worthwhile practical discussions.
4. This must surely lead to exchange of ideas, tactics, and enhance one's own trading, not to mention the benefit the newbies would derive.

A CANLDE DOES NOT LOSE ITS BRIGHTNESS BY LIGHTING ANOTHER CANDLE

I don't know why I'm doing this, but I'll address this stuff once again.

A. Hypothesizing is not the same as floating around in an ether of abstractedness. See the Trading Journal thread below (I've lost count of how many times I've said that). Dithering about expectancy when one has yet to be able to locate any sort of pattern in a chart is, at best, irrelevant.

B. "Learning by example" does not occur without some sort of focus. If it did, everyone, given the hundreds of thousands of examples provided over decades, would have learned everything there is to learn. Sitting around like a passive vessel waiting to be filled is the most inefficient and generally ineffective form of learning.

C. The purpose of learning to evaluate what is in front of one is to be able to act on that evaluation in real time when one has developed a strategy and a trading plan. The obsessive focus on "what happens next" is distracting and irrelevant and has nothing to do with what is involved in developing a trading strategy.

D. Encouraging others to follow one's examples of trades and "follow the same route" is the exact opposite of what should be happening in the process of developing a trading strategy. Those who clamor for this are offended when someone says that they are doing no more than waiting around to be told what to do, but that is in fact what they are doing. As for posting yesterday's charts, I posted charts in real time for four days showing S/R levels in an effort to show how these are plotted throughout the trading day. Did anyone do anything with them? No.

E. One who's gone through the process of developing a consistently profitable trading strategy and posts that strategy does not encourage "the exchange of ideas" but rather a parasitic dependency that leaves the parasite in an aimless drift once the faucet is turned off. This is because those who clamor for the strategies of others have no interest in creating their own, or, at best, have no interest in making anything more than the minimum modifications in order to make somebody else's strategy work for them. Fortunately, they have a lot to choose from: Darvas, Schabacker, O'Neil, Elder, Ross, Wyckoff, Crabel, Landry, Raschke, Smith, etc etc etc.

For these reasons and others, I've stopped working with beginners on specifics unless they are willing to meet me halfway by opening up a journal. This alters the relationship more toward 50:50 and less toward 100:0. Has anyone been willing to do that? Yes. A few. And, except for those who balked at every request I made and dropped out almost before they started, they all benefited from the experience. But the vast majority aren't willing to make even that small step, and I can't think of any reason why I should give away my time to those who aren't willing to put forth even the slightest effort to learn how to trade.

Therefore, if after all the books and all the courses and all the seminars and all the websites and all the message boards one cannot yet detect a pattern on a chart, then he can begin with an off-the-shelf pattern, such as the Darvas Box, or the Cup With Handle, or one of many other such patterns. Then he can begin the attempt to locate this pattern in charts. If he cannot be bothered to do even that, then I can't think why I should waste my time nagging him to do so, unless for some reason I choose to adopt him.

There's one huge problem when starting out - deafness.

That's because 99% of newbies are deaf when they are told by genuine traders the real hard facts that they need to know about trading. First of all they put their hands up in horror, then they give a mouthful to the person who has told them, and then they firmly slap their hands over their ears so that they can't hear any more.

And then someone comes along who tells them all the sorts of things they want to hear. Wonderful cosy things such as how easy it all is, how it only takes a few hours to master the markets, how money just falls over itself to jump into their accounts, how special software will only select winning stocks, how a newsletter will reveal all the secrets, how there are secret formulae and secret pivot levels which are guaranteed to work, there's a guaranteed money-back offer, etc, etc. They are wooed by these softly spoken people and happily hand over thousands of pounds and wait eagerly with their wheelbarrows to cart off all the promised riches from the market. And they end up having to sell the wheelbarrow to get the bus fare for the trip home.

There are things newbies NEED to know, but these are never the things they WANT to know.

-- Skimbleshanks
 
dbphoenix said:
But the vast majority aren't willing to make even that small step, and I can't think of any reason why I should give away my time to those who aren't willing to put forth even the slightest effort to learn how to trade.

There's one huge problem when starting out - deafness.

That's because 99% of newbies are deaf when they are told by genuine traders the real hard facts that they need to know about trading. First of all they put their hands up in horror, then they give a mouthful to the person who has told them, and then they firmly slap their hands over their ears so that they can't hear any more.

And then someone comes along who tells them all the sorts of things they want to hear. Wonderful cosy things such as how easy it all is, how it only takes a few hours to master the markets, how money just falls over itself to jump into their accounts, how special software will only select winning stocks, how a newsletter will reveal all the secrets, how there are secret formulae and secret pivot levels which are guaranteed to work, there's a guaranteed money-back offer, etc, etc. They are wooed by these softly spoken people and happily hand over thousands of pounds and wait eagerly with their wheelbarrows to cart off all the promised riches from the market. And they end up having to sell the wheelbarrow to get the bus fare for the trip home.

There are things newbies NEED to know, but these are never the things they WANT to know.

-- Skimbleshanks

Cruel to be kind perhaps? This is all gonna end in tears..

I suspect not all newbies are the above, the ones we don't hear of are probably the ones getting on with it.

Trouble is that these boards are in the weird and wonderful world of cyberspace and if we were all meeting in the flesh then we would soon know whether who is a genuine trader and who is a genuine disciple.

For all we know half of the people on here could be inmates of various institutions, myself included.:cheesy:

Gotta go, nursey's coming.....
 
dbphoenix said:
I don't know why I'm doing this, but I'll address this stuff once again.

A. Hypothesizing is not the same as floating around in an ether of abstractedness. See the Trading Journal thread below (I've lost count of how many times I've said that). Dithering about expectancy when one has yet to be able to locate any sort of pattern in a chart is, at best, irrelevant.

B. "Learning by example" does not occur without some sort of focus. If it did, everyone, given the hundreds of thousands of examples provided over decades, would have learned everything there is to learn. Sitting around like a passive vessel waiting to be filled is the most inefficient and generally ineffective form of learning.

C. The purpose of learning to evaluate what is in front of one is to be able to act on that evaluation in real time when one has developed a strategy and a trading plan. The obsessive focus on "what happens next" is distracting and irrelevant and has nothing to do with what is involved in developing a trading strategy.

D. Encouraging others to follow one's examples of trades and "follow the same route" is the exact opposite of what should be happening in the process of developing a trading strategy. Those who clamor for this are offended when someone says that they are doing no more than waiting around to be told what to do, but that is in fact what they are doing. As for posting yesterday's charts, I posted charts in real time for four days showing S/R levels in an effort to show how these are plotted throughout the trading day. Did anyone do anything with them? No.

E. One who's gone through the process of developing a consistently profitable trading strategy and posts that strategy does not encourage "the exchange of ideas" but rather a parasitic dependency that leaves the parasite in an aimless drift once the faucet is turned off. This is because those who clamor for the strategies of others have no interest in creating their own, or, at best, have no interest in making anything more than the minimum modifications in order to make somebody else's strategy work for them. Fortunately, they have a lot to choose from: Darvas, Schabacker, O'Neil, Elder, Ross, Wyckoff, Crabel, Landry, Raschke, Smith, etc etc etc.

For these reasons and others, I've stopped working with beginners on specifics unless they are willing to meet me halfway by opening up a journal. This alters the relationship more toward 50:50 and less toward 100:0. Has anyone been willing to do that? Yes. A few. And, except for those who balked at every request I made and dropped out almost before they started, they all benefited from the experience. But the vast majority aren't willing to make even that small step, and I can't think of any reason why I should give away my time to those who aren't willing to put forth even the slightest effort to learn how to trade.

Therefore, if after all the books and all the courses and all the seminars and all the websites and all the message boards one cannot yet detect a pattern on a chart, then he can begin with an off-the-shelf pattern, such as the Darvas Box, or the Cup With Handle, or one of many other such patterns. Then he can begin the attempt to locate this pattern in charts. If he cannot be bothered to do even that, then I can't think why I should waste my time nagging him to do so, unless for some reason I choose to adopt him.

There's one huge problem when starting out - deafness.

That's because 99% of newbies are deaf when they are told by genuine traders the real hard facts that they need to know about trading. First of all they put their hands up in horror, then they give a mouthful to the person who has told them, and then they firmly slap their hands over their ears so that they can't hear any more.

And then someone comes along who tells them all the sorts of things they want to hear. Wonderful cosy things such as how easy it all is, how it only takes a few hours to master the markets, how money just falls over itself to jump into their accounts, how special software will only select winning stocks, how a newsletter will reveal all the secrets, how there are secret formulae and secret pivot levels which are guaranteed to work, there's a guaranteed money-back offer, etc, etc. They are wooed by these softly spoken people and happily hand over thousands of pounds and wait eagerly with their wheelbarrows to cart off all the promised riches from the market. And they end up having to sell the wheelbarrow to get the bus fare for the trip home.

There are things newbies NEED to know, but these are never the things they WANT to know.

-- Skimbleshanks



I began to read this post and paragraph E stands out.

It is not only what you say in this paragraph, it is what remains unsaid which is the most important.

It is not a matter of the faucet ( a US word meaning a tap) being suddenly turned off.

It is...that whaterver way the message is generously delivered...it just does NOT LAND.

Then you get the clowns arriving to argue pointlessly because their egos do not allow them to accept and learn. The consequence is that everyone has to suffer and then a discussion that was previously interesting and enjoyable has to be snuffed out.

Or....for the same reason...they appear and argue the contrary ...to try to prove they are right against all the evidence to the contrary,

Alll of this is very tiresome.

In your last paragraph...I began to read and thought...this is very unusual for db to post.

And then I saw...Skimmy...yes of course...I remember original post now.

Did that ever land either ? No, it did not.
 
SOCRATES said:
[/color]


I began to read this post and paragraph E stands out.

It is not only what you say in this paragraph, it is what remains unsaid which is the most important.

It is not a matter of the faucet ( a US word meaning a tap) being suddenly turned off.

It is...that whaterver way the message is generously delivered...it just does NOT LAND.

Then you get the clowns arriving to argue pointlessly because their egos do not allow them to accept and learn. The consequence is that everyone has to suffer and then a discussion that was previously interesting and enjoyable has to be snuffed out.

Or....for the same reason...they appear and argue the contrary ...to try to prove they are right against all the evidence to the contrary,

Alll of this is very tiresome.

In your last paragraph...I began to read and thought...this is very unusual for db to post.

And then I saw...Skimmy...yes of course...I remember original post now.

Did that ever land either ? No, it did not.


What surprises me the most is that - although all the successful traders claim to have been through the same stages, troubles, emotions, difficulties, etc - they are unable to bring a message which is apparently that "plain and simple". As for the last paragraph, I've read it already somewhere else on this forum and yes it seems to be a copy of a post somewhere else. So you guys keep on re-iterating the same stuff over and over again, that others told you in the beginning, right? Could it perhaps be then, that the message isn't landing because of the medium and it's unwillingness to understand the "newbies" that still have to reach that level of understanding they have acquired.
 
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firewalker99 said:
What surprise me the most is that - although all the succesfull traders claim to have been through the same stages, troubles, emotions, difficulties, etc - they are unable to bring a message which is apparently that "plain and simple". As for the last paragraph, I've read it already somewhere else on this forum and yes it seems to be a copy of a post somewhere else. So you guys keep on re-iterating the same stuff over and over again, that others told you in the beginning, right? Could it perhaps be then, that the message isn't landing because of the medium and it's unwilligness to understand the "newbies" that still have to reach that level of understanding they have acquired.

Okay, FW. Let's assume that you know what a stop is.

Now, go to the first post in the S/R thread. Look at all the charts posted, beginning with the first chart of the trading day. Pretend you're taking every breakout through every S/R level.

What is the tightest stop that will enable you to stay out of bad trades and the widest stop that will enable you to take full advantage of winning trades? (This is, of course, in lieu of asking people again and again what stops they use and where and what kind and how tight.)

Db
 
GreenWelly said:
i contest that it is not an inability of the newbie to understand...

If that's the case, then there should be at least a dozen people willing and able to respond to my last post.

If, of course, the task is too difficult, I have a simpler one.

Db
 
GreenWelly said:
consider this..

you are presupposing that those who are 'successful traders' are infact successful... but do you really know if they are? you dont..

all you have on this forum.. with the exception of 1 member (mr marcus..) .. is a very large group of people who talk as if they know what theyre talking about.. but have given the readers no evidence of their supposed credentials..

i know i know.. i already know what someone is going to say.. i dont have to prove anything to you..

thats fine... (and a very interesting point of view i might add.. especially if you come from the posture of claiming to know how the market works and being able to teach people.. very strange indeed.. )

but dont expect anyone to respect what is your OPINION or take on board what you say when no evidence nor credentials have been shown to indicate that you have ANY IDEA of what it is you CLAIM TO KNOW OR HAVE..

i contest that it is not an inability of the newbie to understand.. i contest that it is that most of the content on this forum is spouted by people who have no idea of what it is they are talking.. and the lack of evidence of their supposed genius and market knowledge only serves to prove my point than not..

Hello Mr. Green Welly. I'm sorry to see you've only been here five minutes and you're already putting the boot in.

Perhaps you would be so kind to reveal your mighty credentials or offer some trading wisdom of your own before you rubbish in your words, "most of the content on this forum."

There are many distinguished members posting on these boards and anyone with reasonable intelligence should be able to separate the wheat from the chaff so may I suggest, with respect, that if you don't approve of what you see then perhaps surf onwards to more suitable climes? :LOL:
 
...and furthermore Mr. GW for a newbie you seem to be very confident and familiar with certain members and have made an extremely quick assessment of a forum that contains thousands upon thousands of posts...

I wonder if perhaps by any chance you have been here before.........?
 
dbphoenix said:
If that's the case, then there should be at least a dozen people willing and able to respond to my last post.

If, of course, the task is too difficult, I have a simpler one.

Db

If what you're saying Db is that you'd be willing to permit a bypass of those things implicit in the dictum: "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat (preferably gray in color and sloshing about in a watery but lumpy gravy)?", then I for one, would like some pudding.

ljey
 
ljyoung said:
If what you're saying Db is that you'd be willing to permit a bypass of those things implicit in the dictum: "How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat (preferably gray in color and sloshing about in a watery but lumpy gravy)?", then I for one, would like some pudding.

ljey

If you mean that something simpler is required, then I'll post a simpler task tomorrow. I want to make sure first that the task I've given is too difficult for all the newcomers who complain that the "experienced traders" provide tasks more difficult than this. If not one single newcomer can accomplish the task, then something is learned by newcomers and experienced traders alike.

Db
 
GreenWelly said:
consider this..
you are presupposing that those who are 'successful traders' are in fact successful... but do you really know if they are? you dont..

all you have on this forum.. with the exception of 1 member (mr marcus..) .. is a very large group of people who talk as if they know what they're talking about.. but have given the readers no evidence of their supposed credentials..

That's why we all take a leap of faith, relying on those that talk as if they know what they're talking about, to help us one step further. Basically, what I'm getting out of all this, is exactly the opposite. Those that are willing to reply do it with an amazing sophistication, how they manage to answer questions with only more questions, give evasive answers to straight questions with the sole goal of turning the question against you. Chapeau. I presume not intentionally, but nevertheless that's what happening.


GreenWelly said:
and the lack of evidence of their supposed genius and market knowledge only serves to prove my point than not..

I must say that personally, I'm not looking for a renowned genius, guru or trader who claims this or that. On the contrary, thàt would make me critical. I find that those individuals that are willing to help newbies, eg dbphoenix, spend a lot of time and effort in trying to do so. I don't need to see any of their credentials to be sure that I was talking to the right person, but yes from time to time a critical mind has to be in place to question what they preach. Nevertheless I can imagine it's as frustrating for them as for us, to have to repeat everything over and over again and yet they are willing to do so. I can only have respect for that, but respect doesn't imply agreeing nor does it mean taking everything for granted.
 
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