Price, (Volume), Support, Resistance, Demand, Supply . . .

[dbphoenix]

That's why we all take a leap of faith, relying on those that talk as if they know what they're talking about, to help us one step further. Basically, what I'm getting out of all this, is exactly the opposite. Does that are willing to reply do it with an amazing sophistication, how they manage to answer questions with only more questions, give evasive answers to straight questions with the sole goal of turning the question against you. Chapeau. I presume not intentionally, but nevertheless that's what happening.

Can I assume then that the task I presented is too difficult?

Db

 

[firewalker99]

Can I assume then that the task I presented is too difficult?

Db

I'll give you my views in my journal, I think it's more approriate there... But assuming the task is too difficult only because of one answer, especially mine, doesn't quite hold.

 

[ljyoung]

To any expert who might care to comment, a question:

Where's le GOOG possibly going today? Why is that so?
Please disregard all scribbles on the charts.
1 = 20d/30m
2 = 5d/1m
3 = 8/17-18/1 min

ljey
PS: There is new info since I set this message up.
PPS: Yes I do have my strategy in place based on an arcane combination of PV, price mechanics, Japanese candles and of course the phase of the moon.

 

[dbphoenix]

If you mean that something simpler is required, then I'll post a simpler task tomorrow. I want to make sure first that the task I've given is too difficult for all the newcomers who complain that the "experienced traders" provide tasks more difficult than this. If not one single newcomer can accomplish the task, then something is learned by newcomers and experienced traders alike.

Db

Well, it seems the task was too difficult.

So, something simpler. Go to the first post in the S/R thread. Look at all the charts posted, beginning with the first chart of the trading day. Pretend you're taking every breakout through every S/R level.

What is the minimum distance that price travels after each breakout without falling back to the entry point?

Db

 

[firewalker99]

Well, it seems the task was too difficult.

So, something simpler. Go to the first post in the S/R thread. Look at all the charts posted, beginning with the first chart of the trading day. Pretend you're taking every breakout through every S/R level.

What is the minimum distance that price travels after each breakout without falling back to the entry point?

Db

Shame no one else participated.
I would say 6 points, but not sure how to interpret your question exactly. If you mean how far prices travels on a true breakout before it turns back a bit (or more), then 6 points. If you mean how far price needs to move in order to succesfully make a breakout, than I'd say 2.

 

[dbphoenix]

Shame no one else participated.
I would say 6 points, but not sure how to interpret your question exactly. If you mean how far prices travels on a true breakout before it turns back a bit (or more), then 6 points. If you mean how far price needs to move in order to succesfully make a breakout, than I'd say 2.

I'm not surprised no one else did. The easiest way to avoid responsibility for one's results is to blame someone else for them. Blaming the experienced traders for being vague and theoretical and abstract is far easier than putting pencil to paper and actually working.

So the next time some newbie complains that the experienced traders never address application and always conduct their discussion in the stratosphere, I have something to refer to.

As to the second task, leave that for now.

Db

 

[ljyoung]

Shame no one else participated.
I would say 6 points, but not sure how to interpret your question exactly. If you mean how far prices travels on a true breakout before it turns back a bit (or more), then 6 points. If you mean how far price needs to move in order to succesfully make a breakout, than I'd say 2.

The cajones d'acero award pour cette semaine goes to fw, for his obvious ability to deal with his ego in a most pragmatic way. I will now weasel in with my point count and agree with him and note further that for breakdowns it seems to be rather less than 6 points (would you believe 2-4).

These things being so, in the never to be forgotten words of little Oliver, "Please, sir, can I have some more?"

As I compose this piece, I observe that db has hopped in but I don't think I'll change anything except to add that shadows on the wall are difficult to talk with.

ljey

 

[dbphoenix]

These things being so, in the never to be forgotten words of little Oliver, "Please, sir, can I have some more?"

If you're serious, then I suggest you start a journal. While you may have only 19 posts, you may not be new to trading. In fact, I know next to nothing about you, and this thread isn't the place to find out.

Those who prefer to troll the boards looking for bits and pieces are welcome to it, but I won't be participating in that, if at all. It's a waste of my time, and I do have a life outside trading, believe it or not

Db

 

[ljyoung]

If you're serious, then I suggest you start a journal. While you may have only 19 posts, you may not be new to trading. In fact, I know next to nothing about you, and this thread isn't the place to find out.

Those who prefer to troll the boards looking for bits and pieces are welcome to it, but I won't be participating in that, if at all. It's a waste of my time, and I do have a life outside trading, believe it or not

Db

You are correct that I am not new to trading, which is to say more generally that a board newbie need not be a trading newbie. As for trolling, I must admit that I do like to sample a wide variety of opinion before coming to any profound and meaningless conclusions of my own.
I will reflect on the journal thing but at this point in my career as a trader I'm not looking for validation but rather trying to hone what edge I might have by searching diligently to find data to trash my current working hypothesis about how the market does what it does.
What I meant by the little Ollie comment (me wife tells me I could work on being more direct) was that I find it most useful when someone such as yourself sets up these P(V) primers. Your book is rather excellent and I see this board as a venue for discussion on what you have said and as well, a place where anyone else who has ideas about PV can voice their opinion. But that's my opinion and quite possibly there are those who would say otherwise. Nifty.
Ad hominem and petty ego crap is best left where it belongs - in the bowl. There are only a few amongst us human beings who purport to have 2-way communications with the deity. I am not one of them.

ljey

 

[dbphoenix]

You are correct that I am not new to trading, which is to say more generally that a board newbie need not be a trading newbie. As for trolling, I must admit that I do like to sample a wide variety of opinion before coming to any profound and meaningless conclusions of my own.
I will reflect on the journal thing but at this point in my career as a trader I'm not looking for validation but rather trying to hone what edge I might have by searching diligently to find data to trash my current working hypothesis about how the market does what it does.
What I meant by the little Ollie comment (me wife tells me I could work on being more direct) was that I find it most useful when someone such as yourself sets up these P(V) primers. Your book is rather excellent and I see this board as a venue for discussion on what you have said and as well, a place where anyone else who has ideas about PV can voice their opinion. But that's my opinion and quite possibly there are those who would say otherwise. Nifty.
Ad hominem and petty ego crap is best left where it belongs - in the bowl. There are only a few amongst us human beings who purport to have 2-way communications with the deity. I am not one of them.

ljey

The journal needn't be about creating a trading plan from scratch. I still do it. Every day. And I've been trading since '88. The journal can be nothing more than a place to keep it all together along with whatever comments one invites from other people.

As for opinions, I'll leave that to others. I just listen to the market. It tells me when to get in and when to get out and when to go to the movies instead. If I listen, that is.

As for "discussion", I'm afraid I can't work up much interest. The point at which everything that could be said got said was passed long ago, and most everything since has just been repetition. This thread is a thousand posts long. Remove the repetitions and it might be 300. Tops. Maybe half that.

So rather than discuss, I'd prefer to see somebody put pencil to paper. Then there's something to talk about. Otherwise, one remains in the abstract theoretical philosophical vagueness, and we know how the inexperienced traders just hate that.

Db

 

[SOCRATES]

in the ...abstract...theoretical...philosophical ....vagueness.

Sometimes db you post some ideas which are truly lyrical...dripping with angst they are, absolutely.

 

[passive]

As for "discussion", I'm afraid I can't work up much interest. The point at which everything that could be said got said was passed long ago, and most everything since has just been repetition. This thread is a thousand posts long. Remove the repetitions and it might be 300. Tops. Maybe half that.

i was wondering if someone could summarize the thread... a lot of discussion seems to be a bit of a circle, and sometimes i have to jerk myself awake.

its like sodom and gomorrah to me... can i find 50 righteous posts? 40? 30?..

 

[sulong]

i was wondering if someone could summarize the thread... a lot of discussion seems to be a bit of a circle, and sometimes i have to jerk myself awake.

its like sodom and gomorrah to me... can i find 50 righteous posts? 40? 30?..

You've done a pretty good job of it right there.

 

[dbphoenix]

You've done a pretty good job of it right there.

Really.

Passive, this thread has become so bloated, I can't imagine anyone who isn't clinical going through all of it. Try reading from post 1 and quitting when you run into the first loop. Or just scroll through and read only those posts which are written by people who you think know what they're talking about. Or if you're particularly interested in trading via S/R levels, just skip this thread entirely and direct your attention to the S/R thread I recently started (link below).

Db

 

[SIMA]

I don't know why I'm doing this, but I'll address this stuff once again.

D. Encouraging others to follow one's examples of trades and "follow the same route" is the exact opposite of what should be happening in the process of developing a trading strategy. Those who clamor for this are offended when someone says that they are doing no more than waiting around to be told what to do, but that is in fact what they are doing. As for posting yesterday's charts, I posted charts in real time for four days showing S/R levels in an effort to show how these are plotted throughout the trading day. Did anyone do anything with them? No.

E. One who's gone through the process of developing a consistently profitable trading strategy and posts that strategy does not encourage "the exchange of ideas" but rather a parasitic dependency that leaves the parasite in an aimless drift once the faucet is turned off. This is because those who clamor for the strategies of others have no interest in creating their own, or, at best, have no interest in making anything more than the minimum modifications in order to make somebody else's strategy work for them. Fortunately, they have a lot to choose from: Darvas, Schabacker, O'Neil, Elder, Ross, Wyckoff, Crabel, Landry, Raschke, Smith, etc etc etc.

There are things newbies NEED to know, but these are never the things they WANT to know.

-- Skimbleshanks[/I]

1. First of all why is it automatically assumed that anybody who enters and posts initially is a newbie , a parasite looking to ride on somebody’s hard worked out strategy. Somebody to be grilled. Personally have been in the business for over 7yrs , worked with intense passion and determination for countless hours, paid my dues. . Having build strategies around VSA principles , Floor pivots etc, recently started browsing around to see if there are traders who also have similar approach . Found your website (Price/Vol), , noticed charts on Dax by FW (our favorite trading instrument, the other being Dow and S&Pemini), that was encouraging, thought we could contribute and start a dialogue, very similar to what is happening on WASPS journal and for that matter on numerous other ones, traders posting, discussing trades, gaining knowledge from each other.

2. I present my scientific work (R&D) at conferences and in journals where participants present the details of their experimental methods, results, etc, and hold discussions. They don’t come with a paranoia that somebody is going to imitate them and steal their work. This is where exchange of ideas take place , prompting others to pursue something they might pick up during the presentation or casual conversation during breaks to go back to their own labs, expand on it and so forth, many students from the University are encouraged to attend these conferences, and many go on to gain their Ph.D’s, this is how progress is made in any field of medicine, science, engineering.

3. O.K the Trading arena is different you might argue, an uncertain environment ruled by probabilities. But so is the field of Quantum Mechanics, however the scientists still get together and openly discuss their finding. If anybody tells you they understand QM concepts, then they haven’t understood the subject at all. There is nothing within our everyday experience which will enable us to understand QM. Now if some folks in here have figured out the ultimate workings of the market and have the appropriate strategies racking in $$$ and know with certainty that it is going to take enormous amount of work and effort to get to that stage, what is there to fear from the newcomers. After all any setup has various entry tactics depending on the risk tolerance of the trader, not to mention the stop levels, exit strategy, trade management, the psychological angle , each one has got to come to terms with the probability aspect, all this makes up 90% of this business, hence there is no question of a parasitic ride.

4. As for “Taking the same route”, this has I am afraid been misinterpreted , what was meant was others who are already traders but at varying stages of development will be encouraged to present their own results, leading to far more meaningful dialogue, exchange of trading ideas , very similar to the conference scenario I have described above relating to the scientific world.

It is as simple as that, there are no hidden agendas, have already acknowledged your contribution to the thread, did not come in here to extract strategies from anybody or take a parasitic ride.
Once again this is posted with no desire to engage in extended debates and arguments.

 

[SIMA]

Really.

Passive, this thread has become so bloated, I can't imagine anyone who isn't clinical going through all of it. Try reading from post 1 and quitting when you run into the first loop. Or just scroll through and read only those posts which are written by people who you think know what they're talking about. Or if you're particularly interested in trading via S/R levels, just skip this thread entirely and direct your attention to the S/R thread I recently started (link below).

Db

Once again this should be obvious. Anybody who comes in here is automatically assumed to be a newbie and if they are, then they face cryptic remarks,(“it is up to you, your opinions don’t count, my opinions don’t count and so on”) may be well meaning , aimed at directing them on the path of self-dependency, but upfront this is all going to appear as abstract, vague, theoretical and totally daunting. Having been demoralized from remarks from other disciples , they are hardly going to participate in any tasks you place before them.
Place yourself in their shoes, Would it not be better to guide them if they have no idea of strategy, setup or pattern , at least point them in the right direction and then if they are willing to put in the hard work , they can then proceed to work with you. As I have stated before your contribution is priceless.

To make matters worse, following one of these posts, the disciple rolls) in , with astonishing alacrity and certainty (in a trading arena full of uncertainties) emerging from underneath his distinguished strategy and distinguished setup and distinguished pattern, to minister his own perverse brand of remarks about inmates, lack of intelligence (934) and so forth. He then pastes previous quotes by you with his own cosmic take, then in turn receives “ Gee, you beginning to sound like me” with some more and so it goes on, back and forth, ad nauseam. Hence the 900 plus posts

Perhaps have not looked hard enough but have yet to find anything worthwhile (charts etc) posted by this particular disciple, unless he has already been elevated to the dizzy heights of the “Omniscient Jedi of the TradersWorld” - incidentally many inmates from mental institutions do posses such psychic abilities)) wonder if there are any such in Bude, wherever that is (I mean institutions)
After all many a Truth been uttered in Jest.

 

[SIMA]

I'm not surprised no one else did. The easiest way to avoid responsibility for one's results is to blame someone else for them. Blaming the experienced traders for being vague and theoretical and abstract is far easier than putting pencil to paper and actually working.

So the next time some newbie complains that the experienced traders never address application and always conduct their discussion in the stratosphere, I have something to refer to.

As to the second task, leave that for now.

Db

Why the surprise, should be pretty obvious, most newcomers are probably too scared to post anything), they can already forsee, having browsed through the posts on the thread, the scenario that is going to unfold. Place yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if you had undergone the same treatment in your early days of trading. After all nobody comes into this world loaded with knowledge, you must have learnt your craft from books and courses O.k you put in the hours of hard grind, testing. However I am sure there are many who not due to lack of enthusiasm or desire to work hard, are unable to see through the maze of all the info. that they have been inundated with and are just seeking some form of guidance to be set on the right path.
Now in this respect, I have already acknowledged your contribution in the initial posts. .
As you mentioned, there is no shortage of information on strategies, setups, patterns out there, and there are countless forums and chatrooms on TA(Woodie’s CCI club has over 1000), the newcomer is overwhelmed with choice and is struggling to find something he or she can make sense of and operate on a consistent basis. There are many who have found their edge with the traditional indicators and are able to apply that on a consistent basis with great discipline.
However there are others who having experimented with all that TA stuff are attracted to something more logical like Price/Volume, Volume Spread Analysis (VSA) and are looking for guidance, pointers, to learn to construct a strategy, identify a setup, detect a pattern, etc and are quite prepared to put in the hours like FW.

When confronted with cryptic remarks upfront, they are bound to feel that this is all vague, abstract, obscure. This “cruel to be kind treatment ”(as one of the distinguished disciple put it) is not going to be of much use, at least not right up front. Moreover, ask yourself , how does posting scathing and sweeping remarks incorporating words like inmates(927), parasites(926), devoid of intelligence(934), help.
The Zen Master approach is fine later on, once the newcomer is guided towards a particular strategy, setup, pattern etc. and commences work on that.

This is being posted with no intention of engaging in drawn out pedantic debates.
.

 

[SOCRATES]

1. First of all why is it automatically assumed that anybody who enters and posts initially is a newbie , a parasite looking to ride on somebody’s hard worked out strategy. Somebody to be grilled. Personally have been in the business for over 7yrs , worked with intense passion and determination for countless hours, paid my dues. . Having build strategies around VSA principles , Floor pivots etc, recently started browsing around to see if there are traders who also have similar approach . Found your website (Price/Vol), , noticed charts on Dax by FW (our favorite trading instrument, the other being Dow and S&Pemini), that was encouraging, thought we could contribute and start a dialogue, very similar to what is happening on WASPS journal and for that matter on numerous other ones, traders posting, discussing trades, gaining knowledge from each other.

2. I present my scientific work (R&D) at conferences and in journals where participants present the details of their experimental methods, results, etc, and hold discussions. They don’t come with a paranoia that somebody is going to imitate them and steal their work. This is where exchange of ideas take place , prompting others to pursue something they might pick up during the presentation or casual conversation during breaks to go back to their own labs, expand on it and so forth, many students from the University are encouraged to attend these conferences, and many go on to gain their Ph.D’s, this is how progress is made in any field of medicine, science, engineering.

3. O.K the Trading arena is different you might argue, an uncertain environment ruled by probabilities. But so is the field of Quantum Mechanics, however the scientists still get together and openly discuss their finding. If anybody tells you they understand QM concepts, then they haven’t understood the subject at all. There is nothing within our everyday experience which will enable us to understand QM. Now if some folks in here have figured out the ultimate workings of the market and have the appropriate strategies racking in $$$ and know with certainty that it is going to take enormous amount of work and effort to get to that stage, what is there to fear from the newcomers. After all any setup has various entry tactics depending on the risk tolerance of the trader, not to mention the stop levels, exit strategy, trade management, the psychological angle , each one has got to come to terms with the probability aspect, all this makes up 90% of this business, hence there is no question of a parasitic ride.

4. As for “Taking the same route”, this has I am afraid been misinterpreted , what was meant was others who are already traders but at varying stages of development will be encouraged to present their own results, leading to far more meaningful dialogue, exchange of trading ideas , very similar to the conference scenario I have described above relating to the scientific world.

It is as simple as that, there are no hidden agendas, have already acknowledged your contribution to the thread, did not come in here to extract strategies from anybody or take a parasitic ride.
Once again this is posted with no desire to engage in extended debates and arguments.

Just like the great majority, you overlook the significance of the obvious.

All of this, is not as you naively describe or would like or hope to believe.

It is about something very different for which nearly everybody is not prepared.

What is more, very very few have all the right attributes to be able to overcome and succeed.

Therefore there are in place, certain safeguards, inserted to ensure everyone has a chance.

But equally, these safeguards absolutely guarantee over a period of time, that the selection process works efficiently.

All of this is not about sharing indescriminately, it is about a war for profits in which only the fittest are allowed to overcome, succeed and prosper.

Cruel is it not ?

This is because all of this is about competing, and competing fiercely, and not about sharing.

 

[dbphoenix]

This is being posted with no intention of engaging in drawn out pedantic debates.
.

It's a little late for that, since you've already drawn it out with three lengthy posts which have offered nothing new.

Rather than rationalize, accuse, excuse, and avoid, why not offer something productive rather than complain? All you've done so far is make the thread unnecessarily longer.

I might also point out that I have been working through strategy development step by step with the one person who chose to respond to the exercise. And I'm not the only one to have done so in the past. If you were willing to withhold your disapproval long enough to do a bit of research, you'd know that. But that would involved time and effort.

You're not making a very good case for the poor mistreated newbie since you're exhibiting exactly those behaviors with which the more experienced traders are confronted on a regular basis.

Db

 

[ljyoung]

Argument: anything goes - street fighting as 'twer'.
Debate: anything goes within the constraints of the particular Rules of Engagement - boxing or maybe even "Fight Club".
Discussion: anything goes amongst persons of good will who appreciate the fact that in terms of what there is to be known, they know jack.
Sermon or homily: A one-sided presentation of revelations from the deity (whichever or whatever deity one might wish to associate oneself with).
Diatribe: Usually just noise in the decibel sense of the word (this as opposed to experimental noise or market noise which are meaningful entities, and which, depending on your investigative protocol or trading protocol, need to be addressed).
Soliloquy: O that this too, too sullied flesh ....

There are probably more but it's Sunday morning here in America and I'm off to IHOP for the hungry-man, lumberjack, cowboy breakfast (with a side of fries (French not freedom) and gravy.

ljey