price & stops

[Paul71]

WTF mate, risk management at my firm won't even let me trade unless I commit at least three times that

I don't trade like everyone else there. I wait until I determine the probability of success in capturing a swing to be at its highest and I personally use the higher TFs to determine that.

If I pay a premium for this knowledge, then that is the way it is. But I don't f*ck around like the other QFA and ES traders. 5 tick stops et al.

I wait and I commit.

One shot for the big move.

I'm going to start calling you, 'one shot big shot'. Tom, i give you you 50 ticks, which is $625,.....why would we need multiples of that for a bet?

Whatever the outcome is, whatever your loss or gain, create as many contracts as you want......let's keep it singular for now, then after, multiply it by as many contracts as you want.....it's all yours to keep,....big shot.:clover:

 

[Paul71]

Besides, i can't afford more than one contract at the moment......i'm going on holiday in a few weeks. Hehehe.

 

[trader_dante]

I'm going to start calling you, 'one shot big shot'. Tom, i give you you 50 ticks, which is $625

What am I going to do with 50 ticks? How can you get a good entry with a 50 tick stop?

I need at least a 250 tick stop for a tight entry

 

[Paul71]

What am I going to do with 50 ticks? How can you get a good entry with a 50 tick stop?

I need at least a 250 tick stop for a tight entry

250 ticks for a tight entry!!! You've never been to Thialand.

 

[Paul71]

I'm off now TD. You make sure you do your ES homework now, some good prices there to get if you know what your looking for, but she's hungry lately Ms ES, looking for easy money to liquidate, be careful with your 50 ticks.......she's a man eater.

 

[firewalker99]

Dude, I don't mean whether I (as in me, Tom) blow up...I mean as in the Trader with the 400 point stop...take spanish89...used huge stops...everyone told him he would blow up...unfortunately for them until he does blow up, he is proving himself to be remarkably good at generating cash which is, after all, what most of us are in the game for.

There was a trader here who posted on a nearly daily basis and he almost never had losing trade. His secret? "I don't use stops, they hinder me". His whereabouts? Unknown, since the market dropped back below 13000 and he was long...

But I'll take you up on an offer of getting a better entry on a lower TF...I'll post my entry and exit on an hourly TF...what TF do you want me to post a blank chart of and what indicators e.g. vol etc do you want me to add...?

Something everybody here seems to overlook, is that there is absolutely no rule saying you can't enter on a small timeframe and exit on a big one. FFS, I hold on to entries on a sub 1-min TF for hours sometimes!

Yes, the one with the wider stops. But not necessarily for the reasons I have stated.

Come again? See wasp's post #138.

Whoever uses tight stops and wants to prove their point can have a trade off with me.
Real time calls.
Real money on the line.

If you outline what the purpose would be, by all means. But I suspect it will only lead to you proving that you might be better at exiting trades, than entering them. Which is not what we are discussing here. And as you know, I am always flat by the end of the day.

 

[firewalker99]

Sometimes tighter entry means tighter exit.
Too many trees and no wood visible.

Aha! And from here stems the great misunderstanding. Imagine finding yourself having to cross the jungle. Your friend is flying with a helicopter on top of you, but he can only see the big picture: he can see where the beach is, but he can't look inside. You want to enter the jungle where there's room to do so, so you look for a clean entrance. Your friend tells you the exit is at the north-west about 5 kilometres further. After you in, you keep walking that direction.

You might need to make several side turns or detours because you can't pass some wild animals or dense bushes. This doesn't change the fact you have your mind set on getting at the exit and you know that if you keep walking with your compass towards the NW you know there's a high probability you'll get there. Hope this makes sense, I'm not much of a storyteller so I made this up on the spot.

________

Let me make it visual. Here's a chart of a trade I took two weeks ago. I shorted twice, the first time I got stopped out at breakeven, the second time I exited along the way, but managed my position so I could close the last half of my position at support around 1500. I stayed in for four hours and had a 2 point stop. Now where does it say that having tight stops means giving up on the exit (btw, price closed at 1513 that day)?

 

[wasp]

my humble view..........

Silly me... I also forgot to mention the 50 pips extra trader B made by getting in earlier (in order to reduce risk and have a smaller stop)

 

[wasp]

Aha! And from here stems the great misunderstanding. Imagine finding yourself having to cross the jungle. Your friend is flying with a helicopter on top of you, but he can only see the big picture: he can see where the beach is, but he can't look inside. You want to enter the jungle where there's room to do so, so you look for a clean entrance. Your friend tells you the exit is at the north-west about 5 kilometres further. After you in, you keep walking that direction.

You might need to make several side turns or detours because you can't pass some wild animals or dense bushes. This doesn't change the fact you have your mind set on getting at the exit and you know that if you keep walking with your compass towards the NW you know there's a high probability you'll get there. Hope this makes sense, I'm not much of a storyteller so I made this up on the spot.

Probably doesn't help being drunk!

 

[firewalker99]

Hello Paul
50 point stops....alien to me ....did I refer to them.

You mentioned 30-40 points. What's the difference? It's bigger then necessary.

Respectfully.. anyone trying to tell me they can use a 5 or 10 or 20 point stop in these conditions is a fantasist !

I showed you a trade where I entered with a 20 point stop. I take it by your lack of comment you agree it is possible and the best probable thing to do?

The majority of charts posted here on T2W are meaningless.

Whether a chart is meaningless or not depends entirely on what conclusions you make of it. By definition a chart is a static representation and obviously does not illustrate the dynamic nature of the process that took place painting the picture you see.

Am I about to enlighten everyone and show them what they ought to be looking at....
nope

My mistake. I thought you had figured it out by now...

 

[wasp]

To help my fellow traders and lead the board may I kindly ask you guys to read this text .. This is a NO NONE SENSE research and vital IMHO in your LONG term performance,,

Papers such as this are life changing ,,,
This paper supports my argument about volatilty stoploss and avoidence of tight stoploss.

WIDEN YOUR STOP REDUCE POS SIZE AND LET PROFIT RUN .. ( donot just widen your stop you must also reduce pos size lol )

Grey1

...

 

[Grey1]

...

with uneducated and illiterate guys like you and ur mate firewalker who think world universities best to close no wonder best posters are on Technical Trader and leaving the main BB .
I wonder why on earth sharky has chosen you as his adviser,, He removed Firewalker as his adviser few weeks back and wont be before that happen to you ,, what a disgrace you both are to T2W




grey1

 

[firewalker99]

with uneducated and illiterate guys like you and ur mate firewalker who think world universities best to close no wonder best posters are on Technical Trader and leaving the main BB .
I wonder why on earth sharky has chosen you as his adviser,, He removed Firewalker as his adviser few weeks back and wont be before that happen to you ,, what a disgrace you both are to T2W

grey1

I suggest you get your facts straight. (1) I stepped down as advisor on my own behalf, because I was unhappy with the direction this forum was taking. (2) This happened not weeks but months ago. (3) If the 'best posters' are on TT, then I wonder why none of them thought the markets could fall lower then the March lows.

As for "illiterate", perhaps you would come over more convincing if you learnt how to spell correctly (advisor).

Nowhere did wasp nor me said universities should be closed. As for 'uneducated', this is (a) beside the point (b) clearly trying to ignore our arguments and (c) a personal attack unasked for. Besides, unless you have a couple of PhD's, you probably have less education than me.

Now, instead of going off on a tangent, are you going to answer to any of the real life examples we presented or are you going to keep hiding behind theoretical papers and completely off-topic comments like the above?

I've seen nothing but talk from you on this thread, but now let's see you walk the walk. I suggest you start showing us some live trades on Monday, right here.

Come Monday, markets open all day. We'll be waiting. Make sure you have enough money in your account to accomodate for those wide stops

 

[wasp]

with uneducated and illiterate guys like you and ur mate firewalker who think world universities best to close no wonder best posters are on Technical Trader and leaving the main BB .
I wonder why on earth sharky has chosen you as his adviser,, He removed Firewalker as his adviser few weeks back and wont be before that happen to you ,, what a disgrace you both are to T2W

Firewalker summed up a reply very well for this.... Now for the sake of T2W, and for the sake of its members, and for the sake of education, and for the sake of keeping threads on topic.......

Please tell me who you think is better off in these times of volatility.... Trader A or Trader B?

RE: Post 138

 

[Bladerunner]

No need for all this BS, no one gains

...there is room for all levels in trading...ultimately you get out what your prepared to put in...what is not acceptable is...

1....arrogance over others.....be it at what level of knowledge you currently are the possibility for improvement always exists..this is until arrogance creeps in....it forms a barrier to learning and equally distorts decision making..before long if arrogance persists it will effect your "bottom line" and you will find yourself back at the very "rung of the ladder" which you so smugly looked down upon.

2....and equally....ignorance....the constant dismissal of those with the passion and drive to take it beyond a money making exercising and instead a pursuit of excellence with money as a consequence is disgusting....i doubt many top sportsman start out soley driven by money but instead the craft....the cyber chavs are allowed to belittle anyone who seeks to better themselves.....ultimately this is down to thier own insecurities...and is typical of society at the moment...never put down those who are prepared to sacfrice and work to improve self and others....these peopl will be the ones who will be paying your dole money one day.

.......seems pretty simple.....dont pretend to be at a level your not to YOURSELF and others....dont brag about the level your at.....and dont dismiss the level others strive to become.

cheers mark j



A good post by Mr Markus, hope you don"t mind the re-print ?


fw ....... Grey answers all pm"s and posts requesting info and from what I can see asks nothing in return. He deals with risk 1st just not to your satisfaction

fw ...... you have made many bad calls over on the dow thread, I assume Grey took his loss as per his method and moved on, bad call ....so what does that prove ? he was not an early Bear

He asks for live proof regards 2 pt stops or at least doubts it .......

seems a reasonable request to me, you claim it = Put up or shut up

Grey does not have anything to prove, you do fw imo, Grey was just posting his thoughts and concerns for something he does not think is very possible or achievable on a consistant basis.

Sure his only concern is that new traders will attempt it and end up overtrading and end up trading on emotions etc resulting in blown accounts

your live trade calls are behind closed doors these days on this site, so who benefits from them fw ?


thought it was a good thread before the usual BS surfaced

anyhows, latter............

thread infected


Andy

 

[wasp]

I joined T2W to learn, open mindedly about different ideas to approach the markets to return the best profit through skill, understanding and simple math.

Whether you think Grey1 or FW is being arrogant and/or ignorant (or vica versa) is your choice but trader_dante started a thread stating one should happily pay more for a loss on large move and I don't think its necessary.

Some agree with my thoughts, some with trade_dante.

I don't wish to start arguments nor a 'trade off'... just simple chart/math based reasons for one or the other and help each other, and all noobs, make a living in this business and I still do not see why, Trader A would be better off than trader B....... (Post 138)

I am all ears though.............

 

[new_trader]

This is an inane comment.

If you got in with a 1.25 ES stop using your amazing execution ability and I get in 398.75 ticks later based on the same reason as you, of course the extra 1.25 ticks makes all the difference in the world.

What are you talking about? Will you at least be consistent! You said a 400 point stop.

If we started with an equal amount and I make more money than you using 400 point stops whilst you use 5 point stops, I have traded more successfully. There is no room for argument on this.

That would mean you are already in the trade on the wrong side and the market has moved against you, it does not mean waiting 398.75 POINTS later. Did you not understand my post. Let me give an example.

You go LONG ES@1400 with a STOP @1000 where as I go LONG ES@1400 with a [email protected]

I get stopped out and lose 1.25 points, the market is now @1001.00

Surely with a 400 point stop you are still in the trade believing the market will eventually prove you right. Is this what you mean by a 400 point stop or were you just using an arbitrary example to prove a non-existant point that you don't actually believe in?

After trading for a few months (if you lasted) with a 400 point stop and you noticed that a trade never moved against you by more than 100 points, would you continue using a 400 point stop?

 

[new_trader]

...there is room for all levels in trading...ultimately you get out what your prepared to put in...what is not acceptable is...

1....arrogance over others.....be it at what level of knowledge you currently are the possibility for improvement always exists..this is until arrogance creeps in....it forms a barrier to learning and equally distorts decision making..before long if arrogance persists it will effect your "bottom line" and you will find yourself back at the very "rung of the ladder" which you so smugly looked down upon.

2....and equally....ignorance....the constant dismissal of those with the passion and drive to take it beyond a money making exercising and instead a pursuit of excellence with money as a consequence is disgusting....i doubt many top sportsman start out soley driven by money but instead the craft....the cyber chavs are allowed to belittle anyone who seeks to better themselves.....ultimately this is down to thier own insecurities...and is typical of society at the moment...never put down those who are prepared to sacfrice and work to improve self and others....these peopl will be the ones who will be paying your dole money one day.

.......seems pretty simple.....dont pretend to be at a level your not to YOURSELF and others....dont brag about the level your at.....and dont dismiss the level others strive to become.

cheers mark j



A good post by Mr Markus, hope you don"t mind the re-print ?


fw ....... Grey answers all pm"s and posts requesting info and from what I can see asks nothing in return. He deals with risk 1st just not to your satisfaction

fw ...... you have made many bad calls over on the dow thread, I assume Grey took his loss as per his method and moved on, bad call ....so what does that prove ? he was not an early Bear

He asks for live proof regards 2 pt stops or at least doubts it .......
seems a reasonable request to me, you claim it = Put up or shut up

Grey does not have anything to prove, you do fw imo, Grey was just posting his thoughts and concerns for something he does not think is very possible or achievable on a consistant basis.

Sure his only concern is that new traders will attempt it and end up overtrading and end up trading on emotions etc resulting in blown accounts

your live trade calls are behind closed doors these days on this site, so who benefits from them fw ?


thought it was a good thread before the usual BS surfaced

anyhows, latter............

thread infected


Andy

Many people read and endorse books written by traders having never seen them trade live, many will attest to the value of Jessie Livermore's accounts in Reminiscences of a Stock Operator but has Jessie Livermore ever posted a live trade here? There are reasons why some people demand proof of claims and others do not. I don't need to see a live trade by FW to endorse what he is saying. Do you see or do you not see? I do not need to see Grey1 post live trades either. I have read many things he has claimed cannot be done and they are simply wrong (not just what he says about STOPS). I have proven it to myself and THAT is what others must do but they are too lazy or thick headed...dunces...do you see or do you not see? People can’t cope with abstract ideas or concepts, they want trading lessons 101, they want somebody else to do the thinking for them. Those people get exactly what they deserve.

 

[barjon]

I joined T2W to learn, open mindedly about different ideas to approach the markets to return the best profit through skill, understanding and simple math.

Whether you think Grey1 or FW is being arrogant and/or ignorant (or vica versa) is your choice but trader_dante started a thread stating one should happily pay more for a loss on large move and I don't think its necessary.

Some agree with my thoughts, some with trade_dante.

I don't wish to start arguments nor a 'trade off'... just simple chart/math based reasons for one or the other and help each other, and all noobs, make a living in this business and I still do not see why, Trader A would be better off than trader B....... (Post 138)

I am all ears though.............

wasp

I thought the general view is that stops should be placed at the point where one would conclude that the trade is a wrong un.

If the price is gyrating pretty wildly 20 points (say) back and forth as it moves along
then I wouldn't consider 20 points against me after I'd entered as a wrong un. If, however, it was travelling more sedately with only 5 point (say) gyrations then I'd be calling wrong un well before 20 points was reached.

Your example is just one (successful) trade where Trader B clearly has the better result. A truer test is a series of trades where (if) Trader B has been several times stopped out and thus prevented from enjoying good moves, whereas Trader A has caught them. (hope I've got my As and Bs right )

good trading

jon

 

[the blades]

Do you see or do you not see? I do not need to see Grey1 post live trades either. I have read many things he has claimed cannot be done and they are simply wrong (not just what he says about STOPS). I have proven it to myself and THAT is what others must do but they are too lazy or thick headed...dunces...do you see or do you not see? .

Tomorrow, one of you will be taking lots of money from the market, and is so sure of his ways that he gives up time to help others make money.

Tomorrow, one of you will be preparing for another nightshift.

Though I'm convinced that FW, Grey1 and Wasp make a good living doing different things, as much as you try to sound like Socrates (pathetic in itself), you'll still be working nights next week. So how sure are you of what you say?

UTB