amit1986
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,100
- Likes
- 66
That "depressing" part really lays the groundwork for the remainder of the story...quite a wonderful documentary.
- Status
That "depressing" part really lays the groundwork for the remainder of the story...quite a wonderful documentary.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
weekly update
Bad week so far (two trades are still open from last night):
Drawdown has already lasted for a whole month. We're at about 12k, whereas I was expecting us to be at 20k right now.
Correlation between systems and eur/usd and sp500 is now stronger than ever, at 0.81.
Some of the systems we're trading have fallen, in forward-testing, to a sharpe ratio below 1:
Systems I'd like to add are circled in red. In green the 16 that I am trading. The biggest disappointments in live trading have been by far the GBP systems.
Bad week so far (two trades are still open from last night):
Drawdown has already lasted for a whole month. We're at about 12k, whereas I was expecting us to be at 20k right now.
Correlation between systems and eur/usd and sp500 is now stronger than ever, at 0.81.
Some of the systems we're trading have fallen, in forward-testing, to a sharpe ratio below 1:
Systems I'd like to add are circled in red. In green the 16 that I am trading. The biggest disappointments in live trading have been by far the GBP systems.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
excellent!
http://stagevu.com/video/knybsfhivzoa
very strange the rotten tomatoes rating...
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mr_woodcock/
This time they're wrong.
Actually this movie is quite meaningful to me, because I've had that kind of parent, mr woodcock. Same type of person also portrayed in The Great Santini.
http://www.subzin.com/quotes/Mr.+Woodcock/50
Philosophical movie in many ways, rather than just a comedy. Much like other Seann William Scott's movies.
On the other hand if you push someone too much you hurt them more than you help them, and you make them insecure. This was my case. And, also, even if you succeed in making them perfectionists, you might also make them unhappy. Basically the great santini method is not usually good in my opinion. The stick and carrot method is better than the stick and stick method, which is the method portrayed by woodcock and santini in those two movies.
http://stagevu.com/video/knybsfhivzoa
very strange the rotten tomatoes rating...
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mr_woodcock/
This time they're wrong.
Actually this movie is quite meaningful to me, because I've had that kind of parent, mr woodcock. Same type of person also portrayed in The Great Santini.
http://www.subzin.com/quotes/Mr.+Woodcock/50
HTML:
01:18:59 I know this is gonna be hard for you to believe, coming from me.
01:19:03 But Jasper is a good person.
01:19:06 You see, somewhere around the time Jasper was choking me...
01:19:09 - Yeah, with your own foot. - Right.
01:19:11 I had a revelation.
01:19:14 You don't get past your past.
01:19:16 You embrace it.
01:19:19 And I'm not that fat little loser anymore...
01:19:21 and that's because he pushed me.
01:19:22 And, in a really weird way...
01:19:26 he's a big part of who I am today.Philosophical movie in many ways, rather than just a comedy. Much like other Seann William Scott's movies.
On the other hand if you push someone too much you hurt them more than you help them, and you make them insecure. This was my case. And, also, even if you succeed in making them perfectionists, you might also make them unhappy. Basically the great santini method is not usually good in my opinion. The stick and carrot method is better than the stick and stick method, which is the method portrayed by woodcock and santini in those two movies.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
creation phase ends, automation phase begins
I have just finished fixing the last EUR system that had failed, and thus have finished creating and fixing systems, bringing my total of systems to a staggering 120.
I can now finally put tradestation away and begin the automation phase, one step at a time. It will take another month to get done with everything.
I have just finished fixing the last EUR system that had failed, and thus have finished creating and fixing systems, bringing my total of systems to a staggering 120.
I can now finally put tradestation away and begin the automation phase, one step at a time. It will take another month to get done with everything.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
awesome link on futures (particularly "Contract Specs" links)
http://acs.barchart.com/sample/mripag.htm
http://acs.barchart.com/sample/mripag.htm
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Here I am again.
I have started automation and have come a long way already. I have first of all renamed all futures from say EUR_ID to EUR_ID_01, because now I have EUR_ID_10 and if I don't do this, they won't be ordered properly. That took me hours.
You can't imagine how many files I and tables and sheets I had to fix because of this small detail. That is why one can never be superficial when they choose an important detail such as naming systems or anything. Since you want to categorize by alphabetical order, if you count on having more than 10 systems per symbol, you should always do a EUR_ID_01 type of thing, because otherwise when you get to EUR_ID_10, that will be ranked higher than EUR_ID_2, if you set a range in ascending order.
My boss at the bank is that kind of an idiot, by the way.
Friday we had a big discussion - I'll talk about my systems progress tomorrow. Now I have to say this about work.
Friday morning we were supposed to have our boring and frustrating one hour meeting with the ACE efficiency team. Then a huge printer was brought into our room. Actually into "their" room, because I work in another room luckily.
So guess what. During these 4 months of bull****, 3 or 4 colleagues were required to attend an "efficiency" (ironic remark) meeting. Actually it was a workshop that lasted a whole week. Yeah, a whole week wasted like that.
So guess what. They were required to put forward changes that our office needed, but in fact, since we... this efficiency team was forced upon us, a more proper way to put it is that we were "forced" to suggest improvements that we didn't even believe in. "They" were forced, because I had told my boss that he better not send me to the workshop or I'd be raising a lot of nonstop objections about what I considered a total disaster.
So, guess what. Among the many improvements and suggestions that my poor colleagues were forced to suggest there was one called "we need our own printer for our office".
So, after a month, the printer arrives. The problem is that:
1) since the colleagues hadn't really meant to ask for a printer, and had suggested it just out of despair, because they had nothing else to suggest and had to sit for 8 hours for 5 days in a row and write down lists of suggestions.
2) since all the colleagues thought the deal was to obey and not ask questions nor raise objections they had raised none, and thought of none. Indeed, our boss kept telling us for months that this ACE ordeal will soon be over, try to keep quiet or it will be even worse. And I am the only one who didn't keep quiet. Until last Friday, when everyone started yelling.
3) since they thought the efficiency team was in charge or at least our boss would be in charge, they didn't think of the consequences.
4) since our boss thought the ACE efficiency team was in charge, he also gave up thinking about consequences. Not that he ever does anyway, being an idiot.
So the printer came, and when it came, it turned out that no one had done any thinking about ramifications and implications of choices forced by the ACE morons.
I don't even know what it means exactly:
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ACE
"Associazione Coglioni d'Europa" as far as I can tell.
Anyway, the huge printer came and the guys in the room didn't want it. My colleague said "no way this printer is coming in here - I have printers up my ass, one behind me, one to the left, and now I am not going to have a third printer in front of me, because I would be breathing toner all day long".
So the printer gets sent back to some other place, and a big boss says "hey, guys, next time don't bother me with the need for a printer, if you're going to reject it once it comes". Then panic in the room: everyone is wondering why the printer was requested and who did. Then the ACE bitch says "you guys said you needed it...", unloading all responsibility on my colleagues, who had been forced to write down that damn list of things we needed, but weren't consulted by my moron of a boss, nor by the ACE bitch, on how exactly it was going to turn out and where it was supposed to go. But they're slightly guilty, too, for accepting to be quiet obeying soldiers, who execute orders blindly, such as when they were asked to propose changes and they said those random things. Even under torture I would have just kept repeating "we need nothing, go away and let us work normally, you bitch".
So then the boss comes to the room and says "hey, guys, why didn't you tell me you didn't want the printer here? You made me look like a fool with that other big boss".
Then I raised my hand and said: "it is really time that we discuss whether you want us to raise objections about what we are doing and then I'd be raising objection throughout the meeting or if you want us to keep quiet and obey. The message the others got is that they have to keep quiet and obey. If they're told to not raise objections, then they can't be blamed for not doing so". Something like that, basically. Everyone understood, and he did, too, and the ACE bitch was quiet, because she's dumb but she understood we could have killed her if she had talked.
Basically for six months our office is under this bitch, who is doing nothing but damage. But she got sent here by the management, so the boss doesn't dare to say "what the hell are we doing?". And he also told us to keep quiet and obey. But each time something goes wrong, and she says "hey, it was your choice" and "hey, we're here to help you" and "hey, ACE is your friend". What a sleazy bitch. So basically the funny situation is that my colleagues have been told to keep quiet and obey, and then if something goes wrong, the bitch says "hey, we did what you guys wanted to do..." even though they were in fact just obeying. The boss blames them for not raising objections... they're all ****ed. Much better my choice of saying from the start: "this is nonsense, I don't wish to participate to this bull****, we're doing everything wrong, and we do not need ACE in the first place, and this whole thing is a disaster".
In fact at the end of my speech, basically my boss told me, in front of everyone, that he knows my objections, since I've been complaining about ACE from when it started in February till now, that i don't have to keep on repeating my objections, and so I said ok but then I made him promise that at least I won't be told that I hadn't warned him, when things will go very wrong as far as my work is concerned, which is something I have been predicting for the past few months.
I have started automation and have come a long way already. I have first of all renamed all futures from say EUR_ID to EUR_ID_01, because now I have EUR_ID_10 and if I don't do this, they won't be ordered properly. That took me hours.
You can't imagine how many files I and tables and sheets I had to fix because of this small detail. That is why one can never be superficial when they choose an important detail such as naming systems or anything. Since you want to categorize by alphabetical order, if you count on having more than 10 systems per symbol, you should always do a EUR_ID_01 type of thing, because otherwise when you get to EUR_ID_10, that will be ranked higher than EUR_ID_2, if you set a range in ascending order.
My boss at the bank is that kind of an idiot, by the way.
Friday we had a big discussion - I'll talk about my systems progress tomorrow. Now I have to say this about work.
Friday morning we were supposed to have our boring and frustrating one hour meeting with the ACE efficiency team. Then a huge printer was brought into our room. Actually into "their" room, because I work in another room luckily.
So guess what. During these 4 months of bull****, 3 or 4 colleagues were required to attend an "efficiency" (ironic remark) meeting. Actually it was a workshop that lasted a whole week. Yeah, a whole week wasted like that.
So guess what. They were required to put forward changes that our office needed, but in fact, since we... this efficiency team was forced upon us, a more proper way to put it is that we were "forced" to suggest improvements that we didn't even believe in. "They" were forced, because I had told my boss that he better not send me to the workshop or I'd be raising a lot of nonstop objections about what I considered a total disaster.
So, guess what. Among the many improvements and suggestions that my poor colleagues were forced to suggest there was one called "we need our own printer for our office".
So, after a month, the printer arrives. The problem is that:
1) since the colleagues hadn't really meant to ask for a printer, and had suggested it just out of despair, because they had nothing else to suggest and had to sit for 8 hours for 5 days in a row and write down lists of suggestions.
2) since all the colleagues thought the deal was to obey and not ask questions nor raise objections they had raised none, and thought of none. Indeed, our boss kept telling us for months that this ACE ordeal will soon be over, try to keep quiet or it will be even worse. And I am the only one who didn't keep quiet. Until last Friday, when everyone started yelling.
3) since they thought the efficiency team was in charge or at least our boss would be in charge, they didn't think of the consequences.
4) since our boss thought the ACE efficiency team was in charge, he also gave up thinking about consequences. Not that he ever does anyway, being an idiot.
So the printer came, and when it came, it turned out that no one had done any thinking about ramifications and implications of choices forced by the ACE morons.
I don't even know what it means exactly:
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ACE
"Associazione Coglioni d'Europa" as far as I can tell.
Anyway, the huge printer came and the guys in the room didn't want it. My colleague said "no way this printer is coming in here - I have printers up my ass, one behind me, one to the left, and now I am not going to have a third printer in front of me, because I would be breathing toner all day long".
So the printer gets sent back to some other place, and a big boss says "hey, guys, next time don't bother me with the need for a printer, if you're going to reject it once it comes". Then panic in the room: everyone is wondering why the printer was requested and who did. Then the ACE bitch says "you guys said you needed it...", unloading all responsibility on my colleagues, who had been forced to write down that damn list of things we needed, but weren't consulted by my moron of a boss, nor by the ACE bitch, on how exactly it was going to turn out and where it was supposed to go. But they're slightly guilty, too, for accepting to be quiet obeying soldiers, who execute orders blindly, such as when they were asked to propose changes and they said those random things. Even under torture I would have just kept repeating "we need nothing, go away and let us work normally, you bitch".
So then the boss comes to the room and says "hey, guys, why didn't you tell me you didn't want the printer here? You made me look like a fool with that other big boss".
Then I raised my hand and said: "it is really time that we discuss whether you want us to raise objections about what we are doing and then I'd be raising objection throughout the meeting or if you want us to keep quiet and obey. The message the others got is that they have to keep quiet and obey. If they're told to not raise objections, then they can't be blamed for not doing so". Something like that, basically. Everyone understood, and he did, too, and the ACE bitch was quiet, because she's dumb but she understood we could have killed her if she had talked.
Basically for six months our office is under this bitch, who is doing nothing but damage. But she got sent here by the management, so the boss doesn't dare to say "what the hell are we doing?". And he also told us to keep quiet and obey. But each time something goes wrong, and she says "hey, it was your choice" and "hey, we're here to help you" and "hey, ACE is your friend". What a sleazy bitch. So basically the funny situation is that my colleagues have been told to keep quiet and obey, and then if something goes wrong, the bitch says "hey, we did what you guys wanted to do..." even though they were in fact just obeying. The boss blames them for not raising objections... they're all ****ed. Much better my choice of saying from the start: "this is nonsense, I don't wish to participate to this bull****, we're doing everything wrong, and we do not need ACE in the first place, and this whole thing is a disaster".
In fact at the end of my speech, basically my boss told me, in front of everyone, that he knows my objections, since I've been complaining about ACE from when it started in February till now, that i don't have to keep on repeating my objections, and so I said ok but then I made him promise that at least I won't be told that I hadn't warned him, when things will go very wrong as far as my work is concerned, which is something I have been predicting for the past few months.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Doing good. I mean - I am not sleeping well, but the coding is going great. Now I have just devised a "code univocal identifier" that will help me identify which of the 120 systems use identical and similar code.
Here's what my collection summary looks like:
I feel like an efficient librarian. My objective is precisely the same: to not get lost in this sea of systems and run them efficiently as a consequence. I most definitely cannot afford to confuse one system with the other.
It is fascinating how tidy a person can get in his efforts to make money. I am neat at work, for the sake of doing things well, but I am even neater here, without anyone pushing me in either place. No one could ever get anyone else to be so tidy if they asked them to. This happens only because I am self-motivated. That's right. It's something quite rare, especially at my office. I am a self-motivated type of person, who actually rebels against others if they try to interfere or urge me to do anything. I am my own boss. I will even rebel against my boss at work if he asks me to cheat on our stats (like he did recently) or to do something in a non-optimal way.
That's right. A lot of preparation into my systems, to make them run smoothly and look boring like the video above.
Oh, and here's my launch checklist:
Here's what my collection summary looks like:
I feel like an efficient librarian. My objective is precisely the same: to not get lost in this sea of systems and run them efficiently as a consequence. I most definitely cannot afford to confuse one system with the other.
It is fascinating how tidy a person can get in his efforts to make money. I am neat at work, for the sake of doing things well, but I am even neater here, without anyone pushing me in either place. No one could ever get anyone else to be so tidy if they asked them to. This happens only because I am self-motivated. That's right. It's something quite rare, especially at my office. I am a self-motivated type of person, who actually rebels against others if they try to interfere or urge me to do anything. I am my own boss. I will even rebel against my boss at work if he asks me to cheat on our stats (like he did recently) or to do something in a non-optimal way.
That's right. A lot of preparation into my systems, to make them run smoothly and look boring like the video above.
Oh, and here's my launch checklist:
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Usual awesome poetic non-conventional movie with seann william scott:
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=XUS73OYB
This actor is just great at picking movies. I like him as much as woody harrelson, who's another actor very good at choosing movies.
Seann William Scott can turn a crappy script into a great movie by how good an actor he is. This is what happens in this case.
In fact i was wrong. The script is just as good as the actor. Excellent movie, this Trainwreck.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=XUS73OYB
This actor is just great at picking movies. I like him as much as woody harrelson, who's another actor very good at choosing movies.
Seann William Scott can turn a crappy script into a great movie by how good an actor he is. This is what happens in this case.
In fact i was wrong. The script is just as good as the actor. Excellent movie, this Trainwreck.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Another excellent movie with Seann William Scott:
http://www.letmewatchthis.ch/watch-27-Role-Models
Like Woody Harrelson, Luke Wilson, and Will Ferrell, also Seann practically never made a crappy movie.
http://www.sturdywings.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_Models
http://www.subzin.com/quotes/Role+Models/13
Excellent work:
http://www.letmewatchthis.ch/watch-27-Role-Models
Like Woody Harrelson, Luke Wilson, and Will Ferrell, also Seann practically never made a crappy movie.
http://www.sturdywings.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_Models
http://www.subzin.com/quotes/Role+Models/13
Excellent work:
Last edited:
Hey, sorry I'm only replying now, but hey ho, here goes... 
Well, maybe I'm an exception then, but my wife is pretty cool about the trading interest. (In fact I'm even involving her now, and she's somewhat interested as well.)
Yes... well I'm fortunate in that my wife trusts me and doesn't have preconceived notions about trading. She does know it can be risky (as I've told he many times) but she's OK with calculated risks. Probably helps that I've not lost the house yet. (joke!)
Well, firstly, exactly how secure is a job anyway? It's only secure until you're fired or laid off or made redundant, and then where's the security gone? I say ******** to that, job security is like the emperor's clothes, it doesn't really exist. As for me, I've pretty much been a contractor all my working life for that very view/conviction/reason. I don't believe in a traditional job being more secure than any other job providing you're a valuable worker. And a traditional job has the added downside of crummy pay and so on. I believe a valuable worker generates his own job security, regardless of pay. So, my strategy has always been to aim for top dollar and look after my customer's satisfaction as top priority, which is what gives any person job security (whether permanent or not.) In practice this view has proven to be workable for me for 12-13 years now. (Aside, I know some of my family was sceptical in the beginning but I've basically shut them up by demonstrating the truth of what I believe.)
Secondly, I also don't agree with the view that trading is somehow not a proper job/vocation and/or is therefore immoral. It's no different from any other type of trading, except that you have several benefits that supermarkets and other traditional traders don't have of course.
The bottom line is that a trader is a risk taker, willing to take on the risks that others don't want anymore. (So you buy the risk from them and later get rewarded, hopefully, for it.) The smart (risk) trader will get rewarded for their efforts (just like a smart shop will make profits on wisely chosen produce and losses on others.) Furthermore, good traders can provide services to others (look after people's pension funds etc.) which must be a valuable service to be able to provide.
To reiterate, if you're going to say that trading's wrong, then the high street is wrong, insurance companies are wrong, banking is wrong, the list goes on (anything that doesn't involve manufacturing could conceivably be categorised as wrong, depending how far you want to take such an argument.)
Such a view is, excuse my french, ass-backwards in my view. And you and I can't live our lives according to other's misunderstandings/misperceptions and neither should you. (That doesn't mean the relationship with them needs to break down by the way.)
You should ask these family members of yours whether they have investments, earn interest on savings, or hope to make a profit over time on their house etc. If the answer is yes to any of those questions are yes then they're also traders, their markets and timeframe is just different... All of this made me think of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0Hdujz7CcA&feature=related
Entrepeneurs often also don't get paid/make a loss in the beginning when they're trying to get a new business off the ground. (Think of that as a a long term trade where the commission/cost and initial moves puts you well into the red for a significant amount of time.) Buying a house is another example. Long term (leveraged no less) "long" on property.
Bottom line is, one has to think bigger than some poxy 8-5 wage-slave job to get somewhere in life. If people don't understand that then that's *their* problem, *not* yours or mine. That just means one has to find a way for them and you to disagree peacably on this point. (That said, you've been working on this for so long I'm sure most of them has grown used to your projects by now?!)
Sure, I see your point and understand better what the situation is.
To be clear, what I'm saying is that until the trading business can be self sustaining, you should only consider quitting your current job if that implies a move to a *better* alternative job to replace it. I didn't mean to suggest you should quit your job right now and go and sit on a street corner. Merely that, if your current job is killing you, then it's quite legitimate to look for a new job in the meantime. I'm pretty close to doing that myself actually... We'll see.
Anyway, now I'm off to read your other posts. Have a good week.
Well, maybe I'm an exception then, but my wife is pretty cool about the trading interest. (In fact I'm even involving her now, and she's somewhat interested as well.)
Yes... well I'm fortunate in that my wife trusts me and doesn't have preconceived notions about trading. She does know it can be risky (as I've told he many times) but she's OK with calculated risks. Probably helps that I've not lost the house yet. (joke!)
Well, firstly, exactly how secure is a job anyway? It's only secure until you're fired or laid off or made redundant, and then where's the security gone? I say ******** to that, job security is like the emperor's clothes, it doesn't really exist. As for me, I've pretty much been a contractor all my working life for that very view/conviction/reason. I don't believe in a traditional job being more secure than any other job providing you're a valuable worker. And a traditional job has the added downside of crummy pay and so on. I believe a valuable worker generates his own job security, regardless of pay. So, my strategy has always been to aim for top dollar and look after my customer's satisfaction as top priority, which is what gives any person job security (whether permanent or not.) In practice this view has proven to be workable for me for 12-13 years now. (Aside, I know some of my family was sceptical in the beginning but I've basically shut them up by demonstrating the truth of what I believe.)
Secondly, I also don't agree with the view that trading is somehow not a proper job/vocation and/or is therefore immoral. It's no different from any other type of trading, except that you have several benefits that supermarkets and other traditional traders don't have of course.
The bottom line is that a trader is a risk taker, willing to take on the risks that others don't want anymore. (So you buy the risk from them and later get rewarded, hopefully, for it.) The smart (risk) trader will get rewarded for their efforts (just like a smart shop will make profits on wisely chosen produce and losses on others.) Furthermore, good traders can provide services to others (look after people's pension funds etc.) which must be a valuable service to be able to provide.
To reiterate, if you're going to say that trading's wrong, then the high street is wrong, insurance companies are wrong, banking is wrong, the list goes on (anything that doesn't involve manufacturing could conceivably be categorised as wrong, depending how far you want to take such an argument.)
Such a view is, excuse my french, ass-backwards in my view. And you and I can't live our lives according to other's misunderstandings/misperceptions and neither should you. (That doesn't mean the relationship with them needs to break down by the way.)
You should ask these family members of yours whether they have investments, earn interest on savings, or hope to make a profit over time on their house etc. If the answer is yes to any of those questions are yes then they're also traders, their markets and timeframe is just different... All of this made me think of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0Hdujz7CcA&feature=related
Entrepeneurs often also don't get paid/make a loss in the beginning when they're trying to get a new business off the ground. (Think of that as a a long term trade where the commission/cost and initial moves puts you well into the red for a significant amount of time.) Buying a house is another example. Long term (leveraged no less) "long" on property.
Bottom line is, one has to think bigger than some poxy 8-5 wage-slave job to get somewhere in life. If people don't understand that then that's *their* problem, *not* yours or mine. That just means one has to find a way for them and you to disagree peacably on this point. (That said, you've been working on this for so long I'm sure most of them has grown used to your projects by now?!)
Sure, I see your point and understand better what the situation is.
To be clear, what I'm saying is that until the trading business can be self sustaining, you should only consider quitting your current job if that implies a move to a *better* alternative job to replace it. I didn't mean to suggest you should quit your job right now and go and sit on a street corner. Merely that, if your current job is killing you, then it's quite legitimate to look for a new job in the meantime. I'm pretty close to doing that myself actually... We'll see.
Anyway, now I'm off to read your other posts. Have a good week.
Re: we do not produce anything and therefore we cannot call it a "job"
It's a fact though, traders do provide liquidity and carry various risks that other parties don't want. (And they sometimes pay for that privilege as you yourself demonstrate rather well.) The other things you mention are on the other hand analogies and subjective interpretations of the activities of traders that you provide, it's your subjective view of what the trading profession is. Now, it seems you're pretty wedded to your views on trading, and that's fine of course, but I submit it might be useful for you to considering alternate points of view and/or changing the way you view things. (I must wonder if these underlying views don't contribute to sabotaging your trading.)
I wouldn't get hung up on arguments surrounding the term "job" -- Mostly anything that people do to earn money is loosely referred to as a job. Whether that's a one-day piece of work to paint someone's roof or a permanent "position" is probably irrelevant as long as everyone understands what's meant.
It's a fact though, traders do provide liquidity and carry various risks that other parties don't want. (And they sometimes pay for that privilege as you yourself demonstrate rather well.) The other things you mention are on the other hand analogies and subjective interpretations of the activities of traders that you provide, it's your subjective view of what the trading profession is. Now, it seems you're pretty wedded to your views on trading, and that's fine of course, but I submit it might be useful for you to considering alternate points of view and/or changing the way you view things. (I must wonder if these underlying views don't contribute to sabotaging your trading.)
I wouldn't get hung up on arguments surrounding the term "job" -- Mostly anything that people do to earn money is loosely referred to as a job. Whether that's a one-day piece of work to paint someone's roof or a permanent "position" is probably irrelevant as long as everyone understands what's meant.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Replying as I read.
Yeah, your wife probably does not mind your trading because it's profitable. It is an important detail.
Oh, no... job security is secure here in Italy. Banking jobs are very secure.
On the other hand, being a valuable worker here doesn't matter very much, precisely because once you're hired you don't get fired nor is there any meritocracy here.
Well, I disagree with our trading being a job. As I said before, I don't think we're producing anything, unlike a supermarket which is bringing a service to the community. We don't produce and sometimes we don't make any wages at all and lose instead... so I don't see how you guys can keep saying it's a job at all.
I see insurances as different from trading. Your other examples also don't convince me. In my opinion, as I've argued at length before, trading is as much a job as stealing is. A trader is like a thief, or a professional gambler... that's how much you can call it a "job".
I see your points and I agree about relationships with others continuing despite them disapproving of my trading.
Yes, all those family members try to profit from trading, so you'd be right in principle, but the fact is that they do not make a living from it, and they believe in being a teacher or something like that, as a social role bringing value to their life, and they say a trader's life is parasitic and meaningless. If it bothers you, it might mean they have a point. It doesn't bother me only because I don't feel I have to help other humans in any way. Like I said the other time, most humans work to make a living and not to help others. In principle we were all hunters and food gatherers or whatever it's called, so it would be ridiculous to think of men's objective as helping other men... it's all screwed up in principle, but I cannot help with them when they say that I don't produce anything.
You say, what I am saying is not that we should quit trading and become missionaries. What I am saying is that yes we don't produce anything for society, but I am ok with it and we should be ok with it. I mean to say that they are right on this detail, but the principle of humans helping other humans is faulty and misleading. Since in fact humans are after their own self-interest, often even those who work as politicians and doctors.
Good video. The video brings up some good points and wrong points. He's not a gambler or if he is a gambler everyone is a gambler. However the argument of providing liquidity as a benefit to society is quite weak. On the other hand, having a regular job doesn't make it more moral than trading, since we do it in order to make money rather than to help others. So depending on the points they make, they're both wrong and right in the video.
Yes, some relatives admire my persistence, even though I haven't made any money yet.
Yeah, at this moment it is safer to keep both "jobs"(meant as "occupations", since I don't want to call trading a "job").
Yes, make sure you watch the movies i suggest.
-------------
REPLYING TO SECOND POST AS I READ
-------------
I might sabotage my trading, as you say, because I have been told it is immoral (and I disagree), but most likely I have been unprofitable because I just wasn't good enough (not patient enough, too compulsive) and I've lost for 14 years simply because I am a persistent person and I did not quit (for which you could call me an idiot or call me persistent).
There you go, since trading doesn't always get you money, that is one more reason you should not call it a job. There you go again: "as long as everyone understands what's meant". Most people and the dictionary do not agree with your usage of the term. I quoted the dictionary in my post days ago, proving this point.
Yeah, your wife probably does not mind your trading because it's profitable. It is an important detail.
Oh, no... job security is secure here in Italy. Banking jobs are very secure.
On the other hand, being a valuable worker here doesn't matter very much, precisely because once you're hired you don't get fired nor is there any meritocracy here.
Well, I disagree with our trading being a job. As I said before, I don't think we're producing anything, unlike a supermarket which is bringing a service to the community. We don't produce and sometimes we don't make any wages at all and lose instead... so I don't see how you guys can keep saying it's a job at all.
I see insurances as different from trading. Your other examples also don't convince me. In my opinion, as I've argued at length before, trading is as much a job as stealing is. A trader is like a thief, or a professional gambler... that's how much you can call it a "job".
I see your points and I agree about relationships with others continuing despite them disapproving of my trading.
Yes, all those family members try to profit from trading, so you'd be right in principle, but the fact is that they do not make a living from it, and they believe in being a teacher or something like that, as a social role bringing value to their life, and they say a trader's life is parasitic and meaningless. If it bothers you, it might mean they have a point. It doesn't bother me only because I don't feel I have to help other humans in any way. Like I said the other time, most humans work to make a living and not to help others. In principle we were all hunters and food gatherers or whatever it's called, so it would be ridiculous to think of men's objective as helping other men... it's all screwed up in principle, but I cannot help with them when they say that I don't produce anything.
You say, what I am saying is not that we should quit trading and become missionaries. What I am saying is that yes we don't produce anything for society, but I am ok with it and we should be ok with it. I mean to say that they are right on this detail, but the principle of humans helping other humans is faulty and misleading. Since in fact humans are after their own self-interest, often even those who work as politicians and doctors.
Good video. The video brings up some good points and wrong points. He's not a gambler or if he is a gambler everyone is a gambler. However the argument of providing liquidity as a benefit to society is quite weak. On the other hand, having a regular job doesn't make it more moral than trading, since we do it in order to make money rather than to help others. So depending on the points they make, they're both wrong and right in the video.
Yes, some relatives admire my persistence, even though I haven't made any money yet.
Yeah, at this moment it is safer to keep both "jobs"(meant as "occupations", since I don't want to call trading a "job").
Yes, make sure you watch the movies i suggest.
-------------
REPLYING TO SECOND POST AS I READ
-------------
I might sabotage my trading, as you say, because I have been told it is immoral (and I disagree), but most likely I have been unprofitable because I just wasn't good enough (not patient enough, too compulsive) and I've lost for 14 years simply because I am a persistent person and I did not quit (for which you could call me an idiot or call me persistent).
There you go, since trading doesn't always get you money, that is one more reason you should not call it a job. There you go again: "as long as everyone understands what's meant". Most people and the dictionary do not agree with your usage of the term. I quoted the dictionary in my post days ago, proving this point.
My sympathy -- I deal with this type of thing as well sometimes. You see a problem coming a mile away, and then you get kick-back when you try to get people to see the problem. Then if you just behave like a bood boy and keep quiet, then it's all of a sudden your fault when 3 months down the line the problems that you foresaw actually comes to pass. Life is frustrating sometimes!
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Good point. The advantage is when you're your own boss or similar. In our case, my colleagues were first told to obey quietly and then were reprimanded for not warning him that they didn't want a printer in the room.
So what the **** are they supposed to do? Obey quietly or raise objections? In my case, I don't have the option to obey quietly, because to me that is dishonest and insincere, so I can't help complaining and objecting every time I hear nonsense. But I am the only one who behaves like this at work.
So basically I am complaining and objecting all the time, because with this team of efficiency idiots our office and my work are both falling apart. And I felt insulted in the first place to be told how I should do my work by other people and in particular by such idiots. The whole thing enrages me on a daily basis.
So what the **** are they supposed to do? Obey quietly or raise objections? In my case, I don't have the option to obey quietly, because to me that is dishonest and insincere, so I can't help complaining and objecting every time I hear nonsense. But I am the only one who behaves like this at work.
So basically I am complaining and objecting all the time, because with this team of efficiency idiots our office and my work are both falling apart. And I felt insulted in the first place to be told how I should do my work by other people and in particular by such idiots. The whole thing enrages me on a daily basis.
Well to be clear, only just and only really relatively recently can I be said to be overall profitable. (Had been sitting on losses until recently, strictly speaking my FX account is still at a smallish loss, but that's compensated by another account, so you're right, overall I'm technically up, now, but not by much I want to add.)
That's unfortunate. I'd hazard to say if we have a big enough crisis then many companies/banks will be forced to tighten their belts and then we'll see how secure jobs remain.
Ok firstly, forget the term job. It's a seperate issue from the nature of the trading business. I assert that being a trader is more like being an entrepeneur or shop owner than "having a job." You buy stuff, you sell stuff. In buying and selling stuff, you provide a service to other market participants. This is exactly like a shop, except that the marketplace is electronic so you don't have to pay rent, your stock is electronic and can't go rotten, etc.
Well, to repeat, *I'm* not calling it a job. I don't really find the question whether you should call it a job or not all that interesting to be honest, and it's not really what I'm responding on. Actually, to settle that, my view is that the term "job" is too narrow, and as you allude to, the risk profile for what most people understand under "job" is quite different from trading. (In the same way as a job is quite different from being any type of business owner/entrepeneur.) So I don't consider trading to be a job, so we actually agree here.
(But, to that I say, "so what?" I effectively run my own one-man software business. Is it a job or not? I don't know and I don't care actually, but probably not. Trading's the same to me.)The point is, I am however arguing that your view about the "trading business" is in my view, unneccesarily blind to some of the attributes of trading that make it exactly analogous to many other types of trading.
Well whether or not you make a living from it is secondary from the original primary question IMHO. (If "job-security" is their primary concern then just point out to them that job-security is not a be-all and end-all and stay in a job until the trading business is profitable enough to give you at least the same security that you currently have in your job.)
I understand what they say. But, I sincerely believe they're wrong. (Again, it doesn't bother me, however, I sincerely simply think they're wrong.)
Well I assert that there actually is such a thing as altruism, but that is perhaps a bit more of a philosophical discussion.
Anyway, I think we may have to just leave this one as-is and agree to disagree.
Last edited:
Found this amusing given the current discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORS64SkQHXk&feature=related
It also reminded me of another reason I originally got into trading -- "Nobody cares about my money as much as I do". Why pay a manager 1% or more p/a when they're likely going to at best give you the same as the underlying market, and in many cases worse, not even thinking about compounded effect of their fees on your capital... Anyway never mind I'm leaving this alone now!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORS64SkQHXk&feature=related
It also reminded me of another reason I originally got into trading -- "Nobody cares about my money as much as I do". Why pay a manager 1% or more p/a when they're likely going to at best give you the same as the underlying market, and in many cases worse, not even thinking about compounded effect of their fees on your capital... Anyway never mind I'm leaving this alone now!
Yeah unfortunately someone's always your boss. If you're your own boss then your customer(s) are really your boss...
That presents its own set of challenges of course...
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
'll try to make my reply short or we'll drag this forever, being postaholics.
Replying as I read:
1) post of Today, 11:03pm
Yeah, that's what my father said, too. That banking jobs will become less secure in the future, because there will be more competition, especially here in italy.
I can't help disagreeing with the whole concept of "provide a service", which you and others keep bringing up. We don't do jack**** in my opinion.
But that's partly what we do disagree on. If we do something for others we can call it a "job", and if we don't, then we can't. It's not so much about the pay or the independence. You run your software company, you devise software for people, then you can call it a "job". You go outside restaurants and ask for leftovers to eat, then you can't call it a job. You feed yourself by hunting, then you can't call it a job. You hunt for others, and get something in return that allows you to support yourself, then you can call it a job.
I am a hacker and steal money from other people's accounts, then I cannot call it a job. I am a hacker and get hired to protect other people's accounts, then I call it a job. The same activity can either be a job by providing a service to others and not be a job if you're just doing it for yourself and by yourself.
So, like I stated in a post days ago, independent traders (from home) trading their own money do not provide a service, do not get paid by others, and cannot call it a job precisely for these reasons. They take money from others, like professional gamblers, robbers, and thieves. And none of these can call what they do a job. The dictionary simply won't allow it.
That's just me stating my point. I am not saying you're an idiot for disagreeing.
In fact we usually agree on everything.
We probably agree this time as well, except about semantics. We mean the same thing but we're just arguing differently. I am sure we agree on everything.
I don't know if I am blind. Maybe you and others are trying to justify your own activity and make it a worthwhile effort. In my opinion trading is only about making money and has no other purposes. In my opinion it is ridiculous to say "hey, I get up every morning, and I go do my job of providing liquidity to the markets". Even those who speak of liquidity certainly do not see things in such a way as to say something like that.
Not exactly their concern is 50-50: both job security and job morality. You can't make money with trading and it's immoral to try to make a living without really working.
Yeah, let's agree to disagree, like Ron Burgundy. Anyway, trading has a lot to do with philosophy as far as I am concerned, because I trade to quit my job to have free time to philosophize.
2) post of Today, 11:16pm
I'd like to know what these videos are made from and why. It sounds like a machine reading a post. Id like to know who does it and why they do it. Also, I've noticed these trading "videos" (machine reading a post) are posted each time by different users, but this is strange because they're all so similar.
3) post of Today, 11:29pm
I see
Replying as I read:
1) post of Today, 11:03pm
Yeah, that's what my father said, too. That banking jobs will become less secure in the future, because there will be more competition, especially here in italy.
I can't help disagreeing with the whole concept of "provide a service", which you and others keep bringing up. We don't do jack**** in my opinion.
But that's partly what we do disagree on. If we do something for others we can call it a "job", and if we don't, then we can't. It's not so much about the pay or the independence. You run your software company, you devise software for people, then you can call it a "job". You go outside restaurants and ask for leftovers to eat, then you can't call it a job. You feed yourself by hunting, then you can't call it a job. You hunt for others, and get something in return that allows you to support yourself, then you can call it a job.
I am a hacker and steal money from other people's accounts, then I cannot call it a job. I am a hacker and get hired to protect other people's accounts, then I call it a job. The same activity can either be a job by providing a service to others and not be a job if you're just doing it for yourself and by yourself.
So, like I stated in a post days ago, independent traders (from home) trading their own money do not provide a service, do not get paid by others, and cannot call it a job precisely for these reasons. They take money from others, like professional gamblers, robbers, and thieves. And none of these can call what they do a job. The dictionary simply won't allow it.
That's just me stating my point. I am not saying you're an idiot for disagreeing.
In fact we usually agree on everything.
We probably agree this time as well, except about semantics. We mean the same thing but we're just arguing differently. I am sure we agree on everything.
I don't know if I am blind. Maybe you and others are trying to justify your own activity and make it a worthwhile effort. In my opinion trading is only about making money and has no other purposes. In my opinion it is ridiculous to say "hey, I get up every morning, and I go do my job of providing liquidity to the markets". Even those who speak of liquidity certainly do not see things in such a way as to say something like that.
Not exactly their concern is 50-50: both job security and job morality. You can't make money with trading and it's immoral to try to make a living without really working.
Yeah, let's agree to disagree, like Ron Burgundy. Anyway, trading has a lot to do with philosophy as far as I am concerned, because I trade to quit my job to have free time to philosophize.
2) post of Today, 11:16pm
I'd like to know what these videos are made from and why. It sounds like a machine reading a post. Id like to know who does it and why they do it. Also, I've noticed these trading "videos" (machine reading a post) are posted each time by different users, but this is strange because they're all so similar.
3) post of Today, 11:29pm
I see
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
