Let's hear from the small guy

[CityTrader]

Floor trading and spreadbetting ( or CFD's or trading electronically) are light yeras apart. I only last week heard of an EX LIFFE floor trader who when LIFFE started trading his product electronically tried for 6 months and lost money, and walked away ( having made a small fortune from scalping in the pit as a local) - earlier this year he tried again, and after 6 weeks gave up. saying " now I remember why I stopped trading 3 years ago" ( no mma this is not an apocryphal story. I do know the individual involved. No, I'm not going to tell you his name)
The traders in the pit's were excellent at reading people, not markets.

 

[grubs50]

getting back to d point of this thread, so u all still believe it is impossible to make it big from small capital then?.
I still think it is possible.................I like skim's initial response to the thread and i wish she could elaborate more with her personal example (not exact figures of course) cos IMHO she might give us more insight into starting small.
I think all these so-called big hitters r just scare-mongering.

 

[zow]

Sorry, (most) people, I've cooled down now and have got off my high-horse (but it's right here if I need it again! )

 

[zow]

getting back to d point of this thread, so u all still believe it is impossible to make it big from small capital then?.
I still think it is possible.................I like skim's initial response to the thread and i wish she could elaborate more with her personal example (not exact figures of course) cos IMHO she might give us more insight into starting small.
I think all these so-called big hitters r just scare-mongering.

Despite whatever you may have read in my posts I honestly do not consider myself a 'big-hitter' because frankly in the markets as a whole I'm not. It seems I do little bit larger size/more round turns than most on this site but when/if the time comes when I regularly do ten times what I do now, maybe then i'll start considering myself a big-hitter.

I am not scare-mongering, I am just trying to inject a little realism into some people's thinking based on my own experiences and that of many other traders I know. Nobody please slag me off for it. You can of course disagree/ignore it totally if you wish. I have nothing to lose or gain either way. I wish everybody the greatest possible success in whatever they may do, but particularly in trading because I think it can be the most uniquely rewarding endeavour (not just financially) there is.

 

[grubs50]

never slagged anyone off, no need to take it personally......................emphasis on 'so-called' when i said big hitters cos it is a relative term.

 

[dwaddell]

This thread is making for excellent reading, thanks to small and big alike, there's a lot of info here, that taken together orms a good answer to my original question posed at the start of the thread.

How do us small guys make it big?

I'll attempt a summary (so far) here...

For us small guys, with our £1K, £2K or £3K, we've really no option but SB. It's easy access, fairly straightforward and allows us to employ the same principles and techniques as the big boys.

We've got no way of making it bigger faster, so have to accept that we're in this for the long haul. We've got to take our staring capital and work with it over a period of say 2-3 years, aiming for Skimbleshanks' continual 'double' until be get to a stage where we've got a decent level of cash...say £10K-£20K.

At that point we're probably onto the next rung of the ladder and can move from SB to direct access, benefit from the pricing of trading futures directly and start to increase our capital again, and again and so on...

At this point, we've still probably not given up the day job - how could we...as Zow and others have pointed out, we need to have our trading capital seperate from our lifestyle finances.

5 years on from now, I might just be in a position to pack the job in and go off with my accumulated cash and start to trade for a living...but what standard of living can I generate with £50K - as Zow points out, maybe not a good enough one to sustain me and my family.

So, accept it, we're going to have to spend the next 10ish years in this game before we can consider giving up the job and living the home trader lifestyle...I can handle that thought, retire in 10 years and just trade for a living...problem is, do I have the discipline to get there?

 

[zow]

never slagged anyone off, no need to take it personally......................emphasis on 'so-called' when i said big hitters cos it is a relative term.

Oh, no, no. i wasn't refering to your good self!
Maybe to one or two others, or as a preemptive measure....


Good summary, Dwaddell.

 

[mma]

* : the posted records, yes James has got a good head for risk *

His Risk is way too high .

* the results u see of because of a very certain stop & exit technique & doubling up method, which the later u fit to level of risk, but it is a technique which ensures u cannot fail *

There are NO techniques that can * ensure * against failure .
I think this is the double your losers method , which makes things even worse.

I looked at the losers vs. winners , the variation margin and I really don't like what I saw.


* no, mma you can relax, I'm NOT going to feed your anger by giving you any more numbers *


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA . you're flattering yourself again . I have no anger but am having a lot of laffs at the expense of * bank traders *

The anti Mackay statements are silly .

Value of money in 70's is irrelevant in this context , 35 x winnings over your start up is FANTASTIC and that's that , no amount of red herring factoids will change that .

So what if his bro loaned him the capital , does NOT change the above one jot .

Same with having a seat.

To wit : we are paying 5/6 tics on the dow that SB firms charge us . how much would that reduce our returns by if we were making 35 x our start up ??? down to 34 x .
Oh * wow * . like anyone would really complain , and don't forget with SB's we are charged 1/4 of the exchange margins .

swings and roundabouts .

the other excuses are nonsense : ineffecient markets , so called lucky trades happen in all markets, on the floor and on screen , then and NOW . Good traders make their own luck and take their chances , and Mackay did just that .
SO WHAT ?

* This pattern of steadily increasing annual gains was broken when McKay decided to switch from trading on the floor to trading at home *

Selective reading is what this is . In the book , the next sentence states Mackay made a million $ gain the next year, and that 10k with him would have become over 1M from 1982 to 1991/92 .

So much for re reading .

 

[DaxTrader]

Roger m

did I say that it was going to be used as a business template ?

apologies for confusion, talk was about small capital to big stake, no one had mentioned him, so posted

 

[dwaddell]

I'm off now for a long weekend - paid for by last months profit! So I'll catch up on the postings when I return on Monday.

Cheers to you all for your input so far.

 

[stevet]

dont even for a second compare pit trading to any other sort of trading

its totaly different and whilst it aint simple, you have a million more times chance to be succesful, all moves eminate from the pit - even european exchange traded contracts in the afternoon

but if you want to become a trader - you have to trade futures electronically and you have to trade full time and you have to find the edge that electronic trading gives you

you are never ever going to make it if you do it part time or try to do it with spreadbetting

 

[sidinuk]

Stevet, I think the camp is split. Theres me, you and zow on one side saying exactly what you just said and then there is everyone else! Anyone care to join us?

 

[zow]

Ok MMA

Everything you've said is correct. I'm wrong.
You put forward a totally convincing, coherent arguement. It all makes perfect sense and you're reading all the plain facts as-is.
You win, i lose.
Sorry SIDINUK and STEVET i've changed my mind (isn't that a mark of a good trader?) we're right and i suggest you come round to our way of thinking pretty sharpish.
Anyway MMA, you've totally exhausted me mentally so i'm off soon for a nice long w/e in the Swiss alps paid for with this past 2 minutes profits.....

Yodolayee-ee!
zow

 

[boy]

 

[RogerM]

DT - I wasn't being critical - the inadvisability of using the MW legends as a business template was MY comment. I was just making the point that aspiring traders shouldn't assume that they are going to have the same growth rates as the legendary traders, who are in MW because their achievements are abnormal, rather than the norm that mere moprtals can realistically aspire to. Of course if anyone here achieves the level of success that gives them MW status, then i shall be very happy for them.

It would also be worthwhile to see how many of the MW legends blew their entire account before they hit the big time. I believe it would be quite a few.

 

[ChartMan]

Sidinuk, those that have a few grand to play with have little option but to do it the hard way via SB. If they can get capital growth , eventually they will be in a position to go Direct Access. By this time, they should be fairly competent traders. Up untill that point, they're not gonna be making a living out of it that's for sure. Maybe a halfway house, living at home etc..... no wife/kids/mortgage. Skim is right. There is no other option other than to have a target of 100% capital increase and work towards that.
Can I just remind all you "big hitters" of this:- there was a program on TV about a politician that had to do a job swap and go and live on £80 a week, all in. Maybe you should try trading with a couple of grand on SB.... it AINT easy.

 

[stevet]

sidinuk

yep

maybe there is a way to do some full time job and do a bit of something on the side with a little bit of money that will then allow you to become an expert at it, and have the opportunity to make millions - yeh - but whatever that is, it aint trading

i never understood why anyone ever thought they could learn trading off some trainer in a day ( trainer = failed trader anyway) -but i guess its just part of trying to find some quick and easy route to millions - and that sort of lazy greed is what trainers live off i guess ( greed = good , lazy = no chance)

but dont they ever get it that if the trainer had millions or was capable of getting it that he would not be ****ing around training people for a day - and maybe some trainers do make millions scamming money off people - but thats a marketing business where they rely on their marketing producing a steady supply of naieve, desperate, looking for a quick route, people to support the trainers lifestyle - its nothing to do with trading

the point is that there aint no easy way - and just because a whole load of people want it to be easy and have decided it can be easy - and tell each other how easy it can be - aint gonna change the reality - you need a lot of time and a fair few bucks to get going

brokers work in a trading enviroment all day long, kids who work in spreadbetting companies work in trading enviroments all day long - dont you think they would like to be trading and making millions - but ask them why they arnt - because they know the reality of just how many lose and how badly some lose and they see it day in day out

BUT with hard hard work and living eating sleeping trading -it can be done

 

[stevet]

ChartMan

yes, but people have to get real - no one is saying that its not possible to become a trader - but its pointless to go - ok i aint got the time to do this properly, and i aint got the money - so i am going to do spreadbetting and keep doubling up my money until i do have the money ???

use spreadbetting to learn elements of trading - but at some point you got to get enough together from somewhere else to start doing real trading and spend the time as well

 

[sidinuk]

I started out spreadbetting through IG, City Index and D4F. Sure you can win from them but it takes a heck of a long time. The odds are just so far stacked against you - big spreads, slow fills, rejected trades, software glitches, these guys don't make it easy.

But spreadbetting is a great way to learn. Certainly if you can make a bit or a least breakeven spreadbetting then direct access will seem a whole lot easier.

I'm certainly not a 'big-hitter', I don't have the sort of money that zow talks about but I have spent every day watching and analysing the markets and that has cost me a huge amount in lost earnings. I'm certainly happier trading than I was as a Finance Director and that is all that matters to me. Trading is not about money it's about doing something you enjoy and I enjoy the challenge of trying to beat the market.

 

[mma]

* you are never ever going to make it if you do it part time or try to do it with spreadbetting *

the 1st half is right but as for the 2nd , I don't completely agree , a lot of people don't have the capital meaningful for the futures mkts , which could be a very big amount when you factor in the bigger leverage we are getting with SB.

So for me , it is reality that I do SB , despite it's faults I am fairly happy with it for now.

Aparrently you have been hijacked into some * them and us type of thing * , don't know how you feel about that.


* Trading is not about money it's about doing something you enjoy and I enjoy the challenge of trying to beat the market. *

well , I'd prefer to be winning but yes it is essentially a grand game and also you have personal freedom , best of which is you don't have to answer to some idiot boss.