Let's hear from the small guy

[neil]

Simple Innit

The problem with some ppl is self-doubt (i.e if they can't c themselves capable of doing something, they feel dat means nobody else can) and i have also noticed that a lot of ppl get bogged down by all sorts of statistics at the expense of the reality and psychological part of trading (the most vital part of trading in my book).

Grubby
What you say is a simple truth - simple and powerful.
Adding discipline ( including the discipline of method and stops) to psychology adds more power to that truth.

Sadly the seekers of the "holy grail" and the baying mobs of doubting Thomas's who seek proof of crucifixion, will never see the simple truth of your quote.

Maybe if the scales fell from the eyes of some of our resident couch potatoes they would see that some "tutors" attract praise; many attract condemnation.

But if it helps, get a piece of parchment and draw a line down the centre. you now have two columns - label one "For." The other, "Against."

Eventually you have to get off your butts and make a decision to attend a course or go your own way.

Unfortunately many people never had the advantage of this type of web page(T2W) and believed the "testimonials" of brochures etc; but at least they did what research they could and made a decision, rather than take up the safe anonimity of mud slinging on the internet.

Others were just plain lazy and greedy, swallowing whole the hope of easy riches held out by the travelling snakeoil salesman.

Now, coming back to the present, and having done their "For" or "Against" research, it's a safe bet that many will take up the offer of Naz or Mr. Charts.

Sadly:

An equally safe bet is that some will sit in the outer darkness, gnashing whats left of their teeth and shouting, " Show me your accounts, what time frame? Prove it - show me your wounds ! "
The light switch still out of reach.

 

[mma]

CM,

ok , a few not most .

May I add that although you can pro rata your winnings , realistically they are going to come in large fits and starts - you will have a month of outstanding winners and then a couple of absoultely flat months , then maybe 1 losing month and then back to a few big winners again.

Markets are in my experience annoyingly uncooperative , especially when one wants steady earnings.

 

[mma]

* " Show me your accounts, what time frame? *

If someone volunteers their tax returns , then we are allowed to ask questions . Or is this prohibited in the perverse logic of
* neil's * universe .

Best spend time making original posts rather than trying to garner support for whatever axe you have to grind. yeah ?

 

[neil]

Fishing

* " Show me your accounts, what time frame? *

If someone volunteers their tax returns , then we are allowed to ask questions . Or is this prohibited in the perverse logic of
* neil's * universe .

Best spend time making original posts rather than trying to garner support for whatever axe you have to grind. yeah ?

I was referring to Naz and Mr. Charts - I was not aware they had volunteered anything to the Spanish Inquisition on these boards.

You imagine slights where none exist.

So, don't be an embittered zealot all the time - take today off.

 

[Grey1]

Quote " It certainly is possible for a small guy to start from £500 and see a good exponential growth to their capital, even using spreadbetting ".


There is a limit below which success ( win) is only and only governed by pure luck.. Grey1

 

[FTSE Beater]

Hi Grey1

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that.
I'm sure if you took £500 and started spreadbetting that you would make money. That wouldn't be luck, that would be prue skill - surely

 

[Finlayson]

interesting but vague statement grey1

could u explain in more detail, & be precise & define the points 'limit', 'success' & 'luck'

Jay

 

[ChartMan]

I tend to agree with Grey. Take an SB account, funded to £500. You should, theoretically, be only trading a max. of 50p a point, giving a 1% loss at a 10 point stop.( absolute minimum- more like 25-30 on SB). Arguments pls on a stamp. At 50pp you are not going to make big cash winnings( except with luck- ok and a bit of skill) Cearly your account is not going to explode with huge cash growth. I can see a trader chasing every loss and just getting in a big mess. There is no room for the normal rules of walk away from a couple of losses. The psychological forces of trying to recoup is too great. For beginners that want to test the water with a small amount, the task of making it a success is enormous.

 

[EK1]

Chartman, with respect, you leave it open ended---you are saying that if a beginner with £500 wants to start off in SB to learn, they shouldn't bother?? I doubt you meant this.

Surely this is a good training platform and the only way a newbie will learn to handle the psychological pressures of trading, and importantly how to recover from a loss.

Huge cash growth should never be the aim of a trader. The aim of trading, and I quote...

"....trading is not about the big wins, it is about making steady consistent profits every day."

Thank you

EK1

 

[ChartMan]

Yes, EK, Sorry. With the right frame of mind, and knowledge of what is realistic and what is fantasy, an SB account should provide a good training ground. I think we all ( more experienced) realise the limitations.

 

[Grey1]

Quote " I'm sure if you took £500 and started spreadbetting that you would make money. That wouldn't be luck "..

Well you donot need £500 quid .. £1 would do... all you have to do is SKILL FULLY get 6 Numbers Right on national lottery ...


Jay ,

Luck is the mathematical model with less than 50/50 OUT PUT .. This is the statistical definiton for LUCK ..

There is a concept in Finance called MINIMUM FUND CONCEPT.. This is the minimum amount one needs to be able to apply an acceptable level of RISK MANAGMENT To the CAPITAL..

£500 is well below this threashold and any success gained by trading with this amount subjects your capital to an excess risk un tolarable for most business plans..


Have you ever asked yur self why one needs minimum of $25K to open a PDT account ?

 

[Finlayson]

Thanks for the reply Grey1...though this definition is lost on me, maybe if I read it a few more times it will click.

there seems to be 2 schools of thought on this debate & I can see the points the 2 r making, But I must admit I am getting lost in it all.

it is a fair point that if u spreadbet in the traditional way, paying a big spread on every trade(if daytrading) making a constant profit isn't easy....but still possible with the right methods, knowledge of the platform & keen trigger finger. & Direct access offers huge advantages.

But I Thought the question was really ''can the new guy really make it''?........this is how I perceived it anyway & I have to say yes. with the right belief, attitude 'Anyone' can acquire the right knowledge.

Being a good trader is ''knowing u can'' & most of the necessary skills get fixed into the subconscious.

Just as in any walk of life the skill is in the 'person' not the tool. a footballers skill is in his feet not the ball, a singers voice not the microphone, an artists hands not their brush.....of course with better tools we r all more productive...........but without the skills u have nothing.

we can all learn the skills if we really want to

reminds me of that story where the guy who lost his legs, had false limbs fitted , learnt to use them & went on to achieve great thing's in his chosen sport.......when asked how he did it he replied :
'' I simply refused to look down...I never saw myself as handicapped........most people thought I couldn't do it , why, because they have a handicap of the mind''

of course u need 'some' money, but whether u fail or succeed is down to the individual at the end of the day

Jay

 

[mma]

* I was referring to Naz and Mr. Charts - I was not aware they had volunteered anything to the Spanish Inquisition on these boards. *

No , but your quotes re: * accounts and time frame * , are comments I made on another thread which I'm sure you are aware of , see thread :

- Proof of earnings, P&L's etc -

Nothing imagined there , just truth .

 

[mma]

with a £500 start up , an excellent trader ( not all will be like this ) could turn it into 2,500 within say 8 months , not unheard of .

And why would the stakes be .50p , I would use £2-3 a point . all you would need then is two 100 point winners and you would almost double your capital .

What I think is that it cannot increase exponentially forever , but it is the lessons that this kind of trader can teach us , rather than a BSD .

 

[wysinawyg]

<i>but it is the lessons that this kind of trader can teach us</i>

Like how to completely ignore any concept of risk management?

At 2-3 £/p you're looking at 5-10% risk per trade minimum off of a £500 bankroll. Thats gambling not trading.

wysi

 

[ChartMan]

Quite. Do the two winners come before the four losers?.... The 50p is there to make sure you have a half decent chance of staying liquid.

 

[stevem12]

I can see how starting with £500 could make some people argue to ease risk management some what, in an attempt to quickly grow the pot. But even so I wouldn`t have thought more than £1 a point, anything else is just reckless.

Some might say, well it`s only £500, but in the real world £500 is still a lot of money to a lot of people, and could take a year to save again! 50p means a realistic chance of having money left when lessons have been learned and skills developed.

BTW I started with £2K trading £2 a point when that was the minimum. It took me two or three years of pi$$ing around with Fins and D4F before realizing direct access was the thing.

The best advice I can offer is, if you have £500-£1000 to start, paper trade while saving, when you have £2-3K open a direct access account. Lets be honest here, spread firms really are a waste of time. IF anyone IS making money from spreads, they`ll make $hit loads by doing the same thing,In the actual market

 

[Finlayson]

I turned £1000 account into£2300 in just under 2 months, this was before I really knew what I was doing. fortunately I had learnt a very clever way to manage my stops & exits. this was starting on £1 p/point & the only thing that really stopped the ball rolling was the SB Firm became awkward, this wasn't just because of me I might add......had they not thrown a spanner in I would have just kept on growing the account & stake.

not that I would expect anyone to believe it but I do still have the 'written records' of that first 2 month's.

this is the downside of SB as I can see..they can make it difficult if they suss u have a good system


p.s this was intraday trading, approx 2 -5 trades per day
Jay

 

[Kilnside]

Finlayson. You may not want to get into details but is it possible to say what the nature of the 'spanner' was?

On a more general point personally I don't find it helps to think of trading accounts in money terms. I regard it already spent and see it as the number of points I have to play with at my current stake rate/loss tolerance - how many losing positions before I'm dead meat. Equally a win converts to the number of new positions I can add to the pot. Seen like that £1000 at £1 is no different to £25000 at £25 (hence the question about the spanner).

Regards

 

[Finlayson]

no problem Kilnside......I have nothing to hide

I was taught by an already successful trader, I didn't understand the gravity of what he had taught me. Anyway I opened a small account to start with & began trading & applying some simple rules & began to make money regularly pulling around fifty points per week..I was just getting confidence up to increase my stake & then all of a sudden The SB firm were canceling orders on me, turning down stop orders......canceling already actioned trades .......I had some colleagues doing the exact same thing as me also with much larger stakes.

I am embarrassed things got a bit ugly at times between us & the SB firm. this of course knocked me of balance for a while......... in the long run it has done me a favour as it made me learn so much about my chosen markets.

I wish now I had started with larger stakes , but I was a newbie & wanted to start small at the time......... & of course as we all should know ''hindsight is a wonderful thing''

Jay