Have you ventured to the dark side yet?

Closed trade at 15.37pm, 0.6936, for +7 points. I don't like the pattern of lower highs forming. Good luck with the rest of the trade.

(Comment added later: I see you very nearly got there, but maybe don't like your "double top" at 0.6941? Am currently long AUD/USD from 0.7644, s-l now 0.7639, next target 0.7658).

(Comment added later still: am also now long EUR/USD from 1.3373 on taking out of 2-point from nice 1-2-3-low on 5-min chart. S-L 1.3356 targets 1.3382 and 1.3388).
 
Last edited:
An update on eur/usd trade I posted at around 2.20pm today. :
"sell order at 1.3374 eur/usd 5 mins"

This support level broke at 1.3376 and I entered short at 1.3374. Stop level was above the high of the previous bar at 1.3388, 1:1 profit taking level was after 14 pips at 1.3360.
This was filled 5 minutes ago for a profit of 14 pips
Chart to follow soon.

Nathan
 
eur/gbp 5 mins making higher highs, and higher lows again after a tense 1 hour consolidation.

Exit still looks good at 0.6942

Nathan
 
Plenty of room to run on this trade i feel but i cannot monitor it any longer as I need a break. Exited at 0.6942 instead of trailing a stop.
12 pips profit
You should've hung onto that trade roberto, ditch them crazy indicators bud,lol.
Charts for this trade coming soon
 
Final summary of the eur/gbp 5 min trade I have been following all day,
Risk/Reward 1:1
Profit : 12 pips
 

Attachments

  • NathansTips13Summary.doc
    38.5 KB · Views: 403
Summary of the trading day:

Followed my trading plan accurately.
1st trade eur/usd short (11.35 am) risk : 10 pips, profit : 10 pips , closed at 1.10 pm
2nd trade eur/gbp long (2.20 pm) risk : 12 pips, profit : 12 pips , closed at 4.05 pm
3rd trade eur/usd short (3.05pm) risk : 14 pips, profit 14 pips , closed at 3.30 pm

It was certainly a hard day trying to post about the trades i make, I hope some people have benefited from this as it took a fair amount of effort to do, if there is some interest I will post trades again one day next week, I think i could manage once a week,

Thanks

Nathan
 
wannagetstacked said:
You should've hung onto that trade roberto, ditch them crazy indicators bud,lol.
Yes, you're right, I should've hung on a little longer. But I closed it a bit prematurely not because of any indicator but because of a pattern of lower highs in the price-bars. Thanks very much for posting your trades, Nathan (and apologies for filling your interesting and valuable thread with my idle chatter: I won't make a habit of it, by the way. Update on the positions opened earlier: when my Euro trade reached the first target of 1.3382 I closed half the position in profit, moved the stop to break-even and got stopped out on it for no further result. In similar vein I still have some of the AUD trade open with the stop now at break-even.)
 
Its been good to have someone to bounce ideas off Roberto.
I've been looking over your last eur/usd trade, just wondering what R/R ratio you use, as your stop seemed larger than possible profits. I try to never go below a 1:1 ratio, however i presume you make up for the larger stop by trailing a stop in a trend to increase your reward?
I do like having a 1:1 Risk/Reward as with a good trading plan and strategy it means a very high win percentage, which does have certain mood enhancing effects. I personally prefer taking small profits and having very few losing trades.

Does anyone else use a low R/R ratio? Would be interesting to see how many private traders on here also aim for a high win/loss ratio with low R/R.

Nathan
 
wannagetstacked said:
just wondering what R/R ratio you use, as your stop seemed larger than possible profits.
Probably it was, briefly; it isn't normally, I think. I don't pay much attention to R/R ratios, which perhaps I should. I just put a stop under support or above resistance, and allow 2 or 3 points extra in case the quotes aren't quite aligned. (I don't look at the trading price until the moment I'm entering the trade, either, to be honest. And I don't mind the quote I'm trading from being a couple of points adrift of the price on my charts, because my experience is that it will always be the same couple of points adrift in the same direction when I come to close a position partially or fully.)

wannagetstacked said:
i presume you make up for the larger stop by trailing a stop in a trend to increase your reward?
Yes, I certainly do that.

wannagetstacked said:
I personally prefer taking small profits and having very few losing trades.
Likewise; but I've got better than I used to be at closing a trade very quickly if it turns against me the minute it goes on, so I do have a number of very small losses as well.

wannagetstacked said:
Would be interesting to see how many private traders on here also aim for a high win/loss ratio with low R/R.
Yes; interesting. I certainly feel much more comfortable that way. I trade less frequently, for sure, but I don't mind that either.
 
Last edited:
wannagetstacked,
Thanks for the effort you put in today. This makes me want to look at everything I think I thought I knew! I'd been operating under the assumption that a trade really wasn't worth trading unless it had a higher R:R. (In other words - that I should trade less often and look for setups for 'the big moves.' But that really doesn't take into account how likely you are to complete it successfully in real time. It may be that the small R:R trades are more just more doable, and they may present themselves more often too. And if you happen to already be short/long when the big move takes off, then you can just trail your stoploss along at a reasonable distance.

Thanks,
JO
 
GammaJammer said:
Roberto I guess this is pretty much how you approach things?
Tis. I have _very_ loosely perceived targets ("loosely defined" would be a bit strong, really) which are just Fib levels if there's been a recent move and something fits (and I'm only playing around with them), and I've only recently been reading about R/R ratios, really, so I suppose I don't really define those either, to my shame. But they're pretty small, I think, intially. I hope to catch the occasional big move, but I think of that as being "just lucky". Not very scientific or technical, I'm afraid. But I take profit on half or at least a third of my position and move my stop-loss to break-even when it looks reasonable to do so. I feel, rightly or wrongly, that doing that is at least as important to me as the entry-point, though I hope those aren't too random either. I've definitely become much more consistent since trying to give up indicators and since reading more and more by Joe Ross, whom I wish I'd discovered earlier. But I'm still a dilletante at heart. :)
 
Last edited:
Up to this point I have only posted the trades I take based on 5 minute charts, focusing on reversals and breakouts at possible levels of support/resistance. If you have followed the thread you will know i have posted several real time trades with charts and commentary, which hopefully highlight my trading style.
One key element of my trading plan that I have refrained from posting are the more discretionary short term scalps at short term levels of S&R. My reasons for not posting these are that they generally last less than a minute and so I could post no real time evidence of it in action.
The basics of it are:
Use 5 second charts of eur/usd with 1.8 pip spread. Wait for tick pressure to slow down and preferably pause at your defined level of S or R, place trade at this point, stop loss 1 pip below/above support/resistance respectively, take profit after 4 pips giving 2.2 profit, if tick pressure at this exit point stays strong in your direction then trail a stop behind price to squeeze out 1 or 2 more pips and make a more favourable risk/reward.
Take the best setups from a period of several hours intense chart watching, can be upwards of 5-10 trades, support and resistance used is that where buying/selling pressures of the past few minutes failed to break. This method uses reversals at S/R to utilise a 1 pip stop loss, if trading the breakout you have greater risk as stop loss point is usually 2-3 pips away, meaning a minimum reward of 5-6 pips is needed which occur less often than gains of 3 pips.
The obvious appeal of this strategy if you will is the 1 pip stop loss, subsequently allowing greater use of leverage whilst still remaining with a total capital risk under 1%.
The bad news is: you need very very fast reactions, need to be able to interpret the speed of price change, need a sound knowledge of S/R formation, and the ability to close a position the second it does not fulfil your original expectations,
A number of unstructured trade closes that overrun can devastate your trading day/week.


Long story short, is anybody interested in hearing about this part of my trading plan further?

Nathan

P.s, Hope everybody had a good christmas
 
Long story short, is anybody interested in hearing about this part of my trading plan further?

yes please. What you've given us so far is most interesting, thanks, as it is this time scale which most interests me.
 
wannagetstacked,
in addition to fast reactions, do you need a high speed internet connection also? Well this may seem like a dumb question, but I live in a rural area and I've been playing 'the game' with oanda on just a regular dial-up phone line and 56K modem. I'm eventually going to have to cough up the cash for a high speed 2 way satellite. I've got my preferences set to allow default entry bounds within 5 pips (in case I'm trying to exit in a fast moving market). I find the dial up prices very tradeable. I usually get in at the price showing when I click on market orders, rarely - I get slippage of 1 pip. My only complaint about oanda is that occasionally they raise their spreads from 1.8 to 10 pips and I wish I could make the screen background be a different "don't trade now" color.. - I guess I need to click on that spread display in order to iniated my orders.

So - I await your scalp trading examples with bated breath.
JO
 
JumpOff, I have always favoured at broadband speed. As I trade on price action only, there is not much new information to refresh on screen, connection not used displaying rsi,ma's,macd etc.
I imagine if you trade the same way that dial up should be ok,

I will now post the scalp examples. Its a long document so may take up a bit of page space, i'm just trying to help and educate a little so any feedback would be great

Nathan
 
Sub Minute Trading By Nathan


Ok then, lets outline how this strategy works. Charts to come later.
As explained in my previous post, this strategy focuses on taking small profits from the best reversal formations at Support and Resistance on 5 second charts throughout a trading day. The short term sub minute ideas I outline are transferable to other strategies to some extent, such as breakouts. I chose not to outline these as stop loss points are easier to define using this S&R reversal strategy that follows.

In capable hands it is a low risk and high reward method of trading. The main principle is that price momentum is easier to predict in the very short term.
Posting charts as examples will not provide much help as this is not for beginners. However examples of S&R using price action on larger time frames can be found in the documents throughout this thread for referral. A previous knowledge of S&R is an absolute must.

Following is a sample hypothetical trading plan. Stop loss points are 1 pip below/above the support/resistance areas that from on 5 second charts. At first glance the concept of this seems very simple, and it is. I am going to try and demonstrate the paramount importance of trade management. Firstly outlined is an initial trading plan. Following this will be 5 different examples of a trading week of varying successes.

Example trading plan.

Account balance : $20,000
Leverage : At least 20:1
Average maximum net risk per trade : 5 pips (After spreads, slippage)
Planned net risk per trade : <2.8 pips (After only spreads of <1.8)
Profit taking : 4-6 pips (2.2 - 4.2 net)
Maximum Percentage of account risked : 0.5
Maximum $ risk : $100
Per pip $ value : $20 ($100/5 pips)
Approx units : 200,000
Win percentage needed to break even : Using average loss of 2.8 pips, average win 2.2 pips : 56 %
As soon as account balance reaches $21,000 increase pip value to $21, $22,000 increase pip value to $22, $23,000 to $23 etc etc.
Eg. At account balance of $20,000 it takes 50 pips profit to reach $21,000
When account balance reaches $30,000 it takes 33 pips profit to reach $31,000
Similarly when account balance falls $1000, reduce pip value by $1

Example week 1a)
Competent trader of reversals at Support and Resistance
Taking profits quickly after 4 pips, losses quickly after 1 pip

50 trades
0.5% account risked
Account balance : $20,000
$ per pip : $20
60 % win rate
30 wins, 20 losses
Daily average: 6 wins, 4 losses
Average pip profit per day : (6 x 2.2) – (4 x 2.8) = (13.2 – 11.2) = 2 pips
Weekly pips : 10 (5 x 2 pips)
Weekly Profit : $200

Example week 1b)
Competent trader of reversals at Support and Resistance
Using discretionary trailing stop for larger average gross gains of 5 pips, losses still taken after 1 pip gross

50 trades
0.5% account risked
Account balance : $20,000
$ per pip : $20
60 % win rate
30 wins, 20 losses
Daily average: 6 wins, 4 losses
Average pip profit per day : (6 x 3.2) – (4 x 2.8) = (19.2 – 11.2) = 8 pips
Weekly pips: 40 (5 x 8 pips)
Weekly Profit : $800

Example week 1c)
Experienced trader of reversals at Support and Resistance
Still using discretionary trailing stop for larger average gross gains of 5 pips, losses still taken after 1 pip gross

50 trades
0.5% account risked
Account balance : $20,000
$ per pip : $20
Higher 70 % win rate
35 wins, 15 losses
Daily average: 7 wins, 3 losses
Average pip profit per day : (7 x 3.2) – (3 x 2.8) = (22.4 – 8.4) = 14 pips
Weekly pips: 70 (5 x 14 pips)
Weekly Profit : $1400

Example week 1d) (The Dangers)
Inexperienced trader of reversals at Support and Resistance
Taking profits quickly after 4 pips, losses run further than expected to 2 pips
Can only maintain a win rate of 50 %

50 trades
0.5% account risked
Account balance : $20,000
$ per pip : $20
50 % win rate
25 wins, 25 losses
Daily average: 5 wins, 5 losses
Average pip profit per day : (5 x 2.2) – (5 x 3.8) = (11 – 19) = - 8 pips
Weekly pips : -40 (5 x -8 pips)
Weekly Profit : - $800

Example week 1e) (The Dangers)
Incompetent trader of reversals at Support and Resistance
Taking profits quickly after 4 pips, losses run further than expected to 3 pips (Due to slow reactions)
Can only maintain a win rate of 40 %

50 trades
0.5% account risked
Account balance : $20,000
$ per pip : $20
40 % win rate
20 wins, 30 losses
Daily average: 4 wins, 6 losses
Average pip profit per day : (4 x 2.2) – (6 x 4.8) = (8.8 – 28.8) = - 20 pips
Weekly pips : -100 (5 x -20 pips)
Weekly Profit : - $2000


Hopefully these 5 examples will show the extraordinary profits available to experienced price action traders, but also the scary losses that an inexperienced trader could incur. These losses will happen if the trader :
• Consistently fails to close losing positions immediately
• If the trader has no experience at finding possible support and resistance
• If they cannot differentiate between probable successful and unsuccessful S&R
• If they do not learn for their specific currency pair/stock/index how prices act at these levels of S&R
• If they cannot handle the pace of placing trades using a 5 second chart, often exiting the position in the same minute
• If they cannot handle the psychological effects that come with leverage, possibly trading position sizes upwards of 500,000 (Forex)
• If they trade in unsuitable market conditions, for example a trading range between S&R that is too tight to meet profit targets (Often found after hours and in other periods of low volume)



In summary, this very short term method of trading should be treated with extreme caution, the high quantity of trades per week can mean a rapid deterioration of an unsuccessful traders account balance. The obvious benefit to a successful trader is a rapid increase in account balance when using the compounding method outlined.
The good news is that some of these skills can be learned with many many hours of 5 second chart watching. Some traders will never be able to master this however if naturally they do not have the reactions and brain capacity to interpret and act on such a large quantity of information in a matter of seconds.
Getting into the trade is the easy part as you already know where S&R should most probably reform. When in the trade however you will often only have seconds to make a decision, delayed reactions could therefore lose a pip here and there on every trade. Is losing a pip here and there a big deal? Check out scenario 1e) and then decide if this is for you.

I will post a few 5 second charts, but as explained this method is very discretionary and will vary massively in success from individual to individual.

As always I am not recommending that you try this method as it is very dangerous in the wrong hands, but hopefully it gives some insight into this little discussed area of trading on extremely short term price action.

Hope this has been useful

Thanks

Nathan


This post can also be read in MsWord format. Attached
 

Attachments

  • SubMinuteTrading.doc
    32.5 KB · Views: 528
Nice one.

May I add that this would be well suited to futures trading.

I used to trade similar to this when doing futures.

2 points: Make the cut if it goes wrong. don't even think about it just do it.

And I found that this only worked well at certain times of the day. Low volume = lots of hard work and being a whipping boy sometimes.
 
Great point options,

It can't be overemphasised how important cutting losses are with this strategy, consistency is definitely key.

Nathan
 
Top