Everybody hurts...sometimes...

[DionysusToast]

Does anyone here know institutional traders hitting market moving orders off the 1m tf. Just out of interest?

No - but I know 3 fairly heavy hitters who don't use bar charts at all. Plus we have a new guy on the board (TradingRAW) who day trades primarily without the charts.

You see - people discuss which timeframes are better but just to discuss timeframes at all means you have made some fairly big assumptions.

Do you have any evidence that time-splicing price action and analysing those splices as bars is actually a beneficial way to try to read the market?
If so - what evidence/research did you see to lead you to the conclusion that it is valid? What makes you think it's not actually holding you back?

The assumptions people make are that time-splicing the price movements and then analysing those individual time splices is actually a valid thing to do. Of course, people analyze these time-splices because it's what everyone else does.

What is important, certainly within day trading for me is:

- where did it open today
- what did it do yesterday/day before
- what's been going on at a macro level
- where has it been today
- where did it reverse today
- how is it behaving today

You dont actually need a chart to see all of this but it sure helps if you want to leave the screen to eat or go to the toilet. As long as you can see the above and you can see the whole days info on the screen - the timeframe is largely irrelevant.

Personally, I would much prefer to use line charts but they don't show the extremes which is where the largest imbalances were.

 

[the hare]

an *edge* that you've taken a month to get to grips with...

Anyone who thinks they can identify an edge in a month is certifiably insane and deserves all of the pain they have coming to them.

Thankfully there's no shortage of these dunces, and long may that state of afairs continue.

 

[Hotch]

Of course, if they do actually have an edge they might just be ok

 

[forker]

No - but I know 3 fairly heavy hitters who don't use bar charts at all. Plus we have a new guy on the board (TradingRAW) who day trades primarily without the charts.

You see - people discuss which timeframes are better but just to discuss timeframes at all means you have made some fairly big assumptions.

Do you have any evidence that time-splicing price action and analysing those splices as bars is actually a beneficial way to try to read the market?
If so - what evidence/research did you see to lead you to the conclusion that it is valid? What makes you think it's not actually holding you back?

The assumptions people make are that time-splicing the price movements and then analysing those individual time splices is actually a valid thing to do. Of course, people analyze these time-splices because it's what everyone else does.

What is important, certainly within day trading for me is:

- where did it open today
- what did it do yesterday/day before
- what's been going on at a macro level
- where has it been today
- where did it reverse today
- how is it behaving today

You dont actually need a chart to see all of this but it sure helps if you want to leave the screen to eat or go to the toilet. As long as you can see the above and you can see the whole days info on the screen - the timeframe is largely irrelevant.

Personally, I would much prefer to use line charts but they don't show the extremes which is where the largest imbalances were.

So you trade fx?

 

[DionysusToast]

no Forker - I don't trade FX.

 

[timsk]

DT makes some very valid points about time frames and most trader's obsession with them. I'm reminded of a popular saying that dbphoenix used to come out with - something to the effect that 'the market is a movie, it's not a slideshow'. His point was that many traders tend to get too hung up of the significance and meaning embedded in any one bar or candle. Often, there isn't any, and what we think we see is the product of conventional (candlestick) analysis, as opposed to what is actually happening between buyers and sellers.

One way of removing the slideshow element is to replace time based charts with non time based charts such as P&F, Renko or volume charts etc. It's a good half way house between conventional (time) charts that we're all comfortable with and doing away with charts altogether and trading from the DoM, level I / II and T&S etc.
Try it!
Tim.

 

[Pat494]

what about small time frame entry's and big time frame exits ? ..........anyone do that ?

errrrrrrrrrrrrr no

try it the other way imho

Get the general direction on 30 min for instance and do your entry ( go with the flow ) at 3 min and exit on 3 min

Just don't be too greedy , build your pile up on RR of 1

 

[forker]

no Forker - I don't trade FX.

Then by definition, your assessment of using charts to trade as dysfunctional and without evidence is exclusive to markets with a central exchange. Would you agree that large establishments trading fx use technical analysis based off charts? That being said, your statement should then rather be directed at the type of Market such strategies are designed for and not generally directed.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Gammajammer is an institutional FX market-maker and I think he said something along the lines of TA being hogwash and that only trending lines are used in practice or something like that

 

[forker]

Years ago I worked for Reuters in their markets division looking after their Financial community. I recall chat rooms both private and global within the private Reuters community where traders and analysts strategised using both macro data and technical analysis. They typically use the standard stuff such as horizontal and diagonal support and resistance, Fibonacci ext, moving averages and a handful of oscillators.

 

[forker]

Gammajammer is an institutional FX market-maker and I think he said something along the lines of TA being hogwash and that only trending lines are used in practice or something like that

I don't know where he worked but I can tell you that my experience of institutional traders is a completely different story. And I am not talking about small players either. All the big names are there.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

I think he meant for making trade decisions not for strategic purposes.

 

[Black Swan]

Gammajammer is an institutional FX market-maker and I think he said something along the lines of TA being hogwash and that only trending lines are used in practice or something like that

I'd agree, other than giving you a reason to get in and out they're (indicators) mostly useless to determine where price is headed, we have to accept that we havn't got a clue where price is headed, we can only base our decisions based on lagging info. and past patterns repeating or rhyming, ergo it's simply probabilities. Anyone at our levels suggesting they have an edge based on anything other than; the prollys, MM, good heatlhy psyche and discipline is talking nonsense..

However, the most useful reason for using indicators (over and above price action/acceleration - the point of entry and the exit) is for MM..strange how that aspect is totally overlooked and misunderstood.

As I stated up thread ; support, resistance, the daily pivot, volume, the 200 ma..perhaps fibs/trendlines is it for the guys near the top of the food chain playing fx markets..those right at the top (making the markets) are a different creature all together. We get to play with the crumbs after their feast of decisions, info. of which eventually bleeds onto the charts...Makes you wonder how we can make a crust out of the crumbs left eh..?

 

[forker]

Thats what they use those rooms for. The Reuters network is finely integrated with their trading workflows and other front\back office processes. Institutions use the chat rooms to bring together everyone involved in the trading process. It is easier than running around the office or sitting on the phone all day.

 

[forker]

I'd agree, other than giving you a reason to get in and out they're (indicators) mostly useless to determine where price is headed, we have to accept that we havn't got a clue where price is headed, we can only base our decisions based on lagging info. and past patterns repeating or rhyming, ergo it's simply probabilities. Anyone at our levels suggesting they have an edge based on anything other than; the prollys, MM, good heatlhy psyche and discipline is talking nonsense..

However, the most useful reason for using indicators (over and above price action/acceleration - the point of entry and the exit) is for MM..strange how that aspect is totally overlooked and misunderstood.

As I stated up thread ; support, resistance, the daily pivot, volume, the 200 ma..perhaps fibs/trendlines is it for the guys near the top of the food chain playing fx markets..those right at the top (making the markets) are a different creature all together. We get to play with the crumbs after their feast of decisions, info. of which eventually bleeds onto the charts...Makes you wonder how we can make a crust out of the crumbs left eh..?

You would be surprised how close you actually are to their world. Aside from premium information their technicals is very much along the lines of how you trade, as do I.

 

[forker]

Not sure if this is on the public wire yet. Rumour is Belgium for downgrade. Also Spain aa1 grading ia on review for downgrade

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Now thats the kind of sh1t that beats your fib and support confluence euro long

 

[Black Swan]

Not sure if this is on the public wire yet. Rumour is Belgium for downgrade. Also Spain aa1 grading ia on review for downgrade

and yet the Euro goes up..for now..again makes you realise just how far removed we are eh?

 

[Black Swan]

You would be surprised how close you actually are to their world. Aside from premium information their technicals is very much along the lines of how you trade, as do I.

tbh bud it comes as no surprise, I'm hard core technical but only the follow the money technicals. Listen, I've done the macd/rsi/cci/2 mas crossing as the super trend spazzes of repainting itself formulae..I've tried them all (well an exaggeration but you get the point) and guess what? They all work in as much as they'll get you the right side of price 8 times out of ten for a period of time of a few seconds to days..all they display is acceleration of price away from the mean..PA in another form..

 

[scose-no-doubt]

what you mean money technicals?