Everybody hurts...sometimes...

[forker]

This is misleading advice, albeit probably well intentioned. Profit (or conversely loss) depends on the risk:reward you are employing regardless of t/f chosen as the trigger for entry/operation...and there are high probability trading opportunities on any t/f. As for the stress being lighter, this is subjective, the aim with a trading edge is to get to a position in it's execution where there is no stress....as Mark Douglas says, '...the distribution between winning and losing trades as a result of the trading edge setting-up is not known to use in advance...' so there is no point stressing over it, the stress comes when a flawed trading edge is employed and/or insufficient is known about the trading edge being employed, (as discussed in my previous post on this thread,) and/or the inconsistent application of the trading egde which may or may not be as a result of the first point causing a loss of confidence in it/one's self.

G/L

How is it misleading? On an average day there is around a handful of fundamental data points that affect markets. Planning your day and monitoring those data points are essential however, you don't need to stare at charts all day, nor do you need to focus on small time frames (1m - 30m) to make money. Keeping things simple and basing trades off key technical area that support data points you can make a very good living without spending the entire day on the computer.

Edited: just adding to my statement. The stress I am referring to is focus and time spend looking for opportunities, not stress related to entering trades.

 

[advfntrader]

just trade daily charts...this also means you can have a job and make more money....day trading is too much effort

 

[Chartsy]

h4/daily swingin' is what im becoming more and aim to be fully proficient at on eurusd,i don't have time to spare but the look of a 5 minute forex chart says it all. Seriously stocks/futures are just better for day trading, not that it can't be done on forex ....

 

[bbmac]

How is it misleading? On an average day there is around a handful of fundamental data points that affect markets. Planning your day and monitoring those data points are essential however, you don't need to stare at charts all day, nor do you need to focus on small time frames (1m - 30m) to make money. Keeping things simple and basing trades off key technical area that support data points you can make a very good living without spending the entire day on the computer.

Edited: just adding to my statement. The stress I am referring to is focus and time spend looking for opportunities, not stress related to entering trades.

It is misleading if only to assert that it is more stressful on lower t/f's than higher t/f's....stress if encountered is personal to each trader not as a result of trading on the lower time frames per say. You qualified your comment to say that the stress you were referring to is as in the quote above, but again looking for opportunities does not nesccessarilly induce stress.

Like a lot of the posts on this and other forums , it is just simply misleading to assert either implicitly or explicitly, that a trading edge cannot be drived for use on the smaller t/f's. There are a lot of misleading posts on all subjects, and I feel for any newbie who has such an abundance of information, much of it misleading. If they are able to stick with it, they may find out what is, in their experience, good or bad information.

G/L

 

[Splitlink]

I do understand why there is such a pre-disposition to dismiss the smaller time frames. Generally, most that have tried them and not found a way of making money from them find it easier to say that it simply can't be done rather than they cannot do it on those smaller time frames.

G/L

As I said before, I do believe in 3M TFs to get me into a trade based on a 60M bar. It seems to me that the 60M bar (or larger) tells us the best times and the likely direction, the 3M gives the trigger. Even if it is counter direction and proves incorrect, there seems to be a better chance of getting out with some profit, or at worst, a small loss when used in conjunction with a lower TF.

Using 60M bars without the smaller ones seems risky, to me.

 

[forker]

It is misleading if only to assert that it is more stressful on lower t/f's than higher t/f's....stress if encountered is personal to each trader not as a result of trading on the lower time frames per say. You qualified your comment to say that the stress you were referring to is as in the quote above, but again looking for opportunities does not nesccessarilly induce stress.

Like a lot of the posts on this and other forums , it is just simply misleading to assert either implicitly or explicitly, that a trading edge cannot be drived for use on the smaller t/f's. There are a lot of misleading posts on all subjects, and I feel for any newbie who has such an abundance of information, much of it misleading. If they are able to stick with it, they may find out what is, in their experience, good or bad information.

G/L

You have completely lost the plot and the point of my original post. I was merely stating there was sufficient profit available on higher time frames. If anything you are misleading new traders by stating the smaller time frames are perfectly ok to trade. You of all people should know the smaller time frames are generally devastating as a learning ground. I make perfectly good profits on higher time frames and spend far less time stuck to the screen as smaller time frame traders do. In this context, the stress, or perhaps that's too heavy a word, maybe the ability to focus is a better, is far healthier than trading smaller time frames

 

[Black Swan]

You have completely lost the plot and the point of my original post. I was merely stating there was sufficient profit available on higher time frames. If anything you are misleading new traders by stating the smaller time frames are perfectly ok to trade. You of all people should know the smaller time frames are generally devastating as a learning ground. I make perfectly good profits on higher time frames and spend far less time stuck to the screen as smaller time frame traders do. In this context, the stress, or perhaps that's too heavy a word, maybe the ability to focus is a better, is far healthier than trading smaller time frames

Bingo...

 

[Chartsy]

black swan i recall you a while ago praising the lower (10 mins ) timeframes ...why the change?

 

[bbmac]

You have completely lost the plot and the point of my original post. I was merely stating there was sufficient profit available on higher time frames. (a.) If anything you are misleading new traders by stating the smaller time frames are perfectly ok to trade. You of all people should know (b.) the smaller time frames are generally devastating as a learning ground. I make perfectly good profits on higher time frames and spend far less time stuck to the screen as smaller time frame traders do. In this context, the stress, or perhaps that's too heavy a word, maybe the ability to focus is a better, is far healthier than trading smaller time frames

a. If anyone is being misled then I should qualify it further, any time frame/instrumet is 'okay' to trade provided you have a proven trading edge and you know all you need to know about that trading edge such that it doesn't expose you to a distribution out of it's typical and exteme norms.

b. I refer you to point a. above....It is understanding point a. that is essential, regardless of time frames. It is not understanding this that leads inexperienced traders to dismiss the lower t/f's having being buirned on them primarilly for this reason, and yes because they can be less forgiving than the higher t/f's, but as someone else posted on this thread, moving to the higher t/f's does not guarantee or even enhance the chances of consistent success, without understanding point a.

As for the point about stress, or the ability to focus, I mentioned in a previous post on this thread that trading say a 1min trigger over say a 4-5hr session is probably like trading the 1hr t/f trigger over say 2 days+ insofar as the number of high probability trading set-ups that develop are concerned. To this extent I don't agree that the ability to focus is neccessarilly better on the higher t/f's. Limiting time at the screens/trading sessions was one of my aims in developing my trading edge, and thus i turned to the lower t/f's for this reason.


G/L

 

[forker]

Then let's agree to disagree.

 

[Black Swan]

black swan i recall you a while ago praising the lower (10 mins ) timeframes ...why the change?

I neither praise or damn, quite frankly (if I had to) I have the self confidence in my edge to make FX money from any TF. I've tinkered with them all as I earned my stripes but have been a committed FX swing trader for close on 2 years. However, atm I'm trading only 2 pairs of 1/2 hr TF - 1hr TF, it's more convenient whilst the holidays are upon us/kids off etc, I'll then switch back to swinging 5-6 pairs. I've now stopped trading crude also, not even position trading it although I'm convinced it'll go to $100+ by summer 2011.

I did trade the Euro off the smalls as a compliment to my swings for approx. 6 months, thought it might add a few extra pips to the balance, but on reflection I may as well have doubled up or pyramided as it only added on average 60-100 pips extra a week which I could grab by taking on another swing pair if I wanted/needed to.

The point of the OP was to condemn what small TF trading can do to your psyche and how unecessarily profligate it can be to your MM and that unless you have all the tools at your disposal (mentioned in the OP) you're unlikely to make it work as a sit at home or small office retail trader plugged into the usual trader circuitry. The game is about probabilities, our indicators and patterns mean sod all unless it's; S&R, Pivots, the HH or LL of the session, or TF, volume (as close to order flow as you can get with FX?)...perhaps the 200 ma *matters* also. Our usual indicators simply exhibit a deviation from the mean which indicates price is probably on the move = price action and IMHO PA is best determined when price looks as though it's probably moving out of range into a trend which I believe is best visualised by using larger TFs.

 

[Black Swan]

a. As for the point about stress, or the ability to focus, I mentioned in a previous post on this thread that trading say a 1min trigger over say a 4-5hr session is probably like trading the 1hr t/f trigger over say 2 days+ insofar as the number of high probability trading set-ups that develop are concerned.
G/L

Cable on Friday I'd have indentified 16+ HPSEs of the 1 min TF from 9am - 3pm, I took just the one off 1/2hr-1HR...

 

[Chartsy]

i gave up on the smaller timeframes long ago after blowing 40 demo account trading 5 minute forex. Swing trading for me is h4/daily and hopefully in time the 60 min. It's less difficult imo to determine trends, i actually just use the 8/21 emas off the daily chart as a good reference. used to use the 50/200 off daily but too slow. Anyway i think it can be still challenging sitting and waiting a week or more for that perfect countertrend pulback to s/r, only to have a loss/breakeven.
since 'revamping' my trading just about a month ago i've had: (just eurusd)
3 losses, 1 breakeven, and one trade short eurusd from 1.34 which if it hits target (1.31) will put me at breakeven.
which is much better than i have been doing previously, and i can clearly see my mistakes.
just grinding it out ...trade by trade......

 

[bedsit]

The point of the OP was to condemn what small TF trading can do to your psyche.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqtNGkSzh1o&feature=related
If you like to gamble, I tell you I'm your man
You win some, lose some, it's still the same to me
The pleasure is to play, it makes no difference what you say
I don't share your greed, the only card I need is
The Ace Of Spades
The Ace Of Spades

 

[price777999]

Quote:by Black Swan
The point of the OP was to condemn what small TF trading can do to your psyche.

what about small time frame entry's and big time frame exits ? ..........anyone do that ?

 

[DionysusToast]

, '...the distribution between winning and losing trades as a result of the trading edge setting-up is not known to use in advance...' so there is no point stressing over it, the stress comes when a flawed trading edge is employed and/or insufficient is known about the trading edge being employed,
G/L

Totally agree.

Once you have figured out how you need to trade - you actually need to do it in order to figure out if your method works. During this period there will be uncertainty but you don't have to bet your house on it. Call it a testing period.

Once you start to execute with larger size after testing - why get stressed about any individual position? It's the uncertainty that causes this.

The next trade will either win or lose. You can't start changing the way you trade after a small run of losers because all the work you did seeing if the method worked will just go out of the window.

 

[DionysusToast]

The point of the OP was to condemn what small TF trading can do to your psyche.

what about small time frame entry's and big time frame exits ? ..........anyone do that ?

None of this matters one iota.

1 - Decide how to trade
2 - Test thouroughly with small money
3 - During the test you are rating both your method and your ability to follow it diligently
4 - Once you have something that works and you are able to follow it, you execute

The only way I can see timeframe getting in the way is if you are some scatterbrain with no plan and no period where you tested out your methods with small money.

So - in all honesty - is timeframe the problem here or is consistency a problem ? I'd say it's the latter.

 

[forker]

Does anyone here know institutional traders hitting market moving orders off the 1m tf. Just out of interest?

 

[glyder]

Quote:by Black Swan
The point of the OP was to condemn what small TF trading can do to your psyche.

what about small time frame entry's and big time frame exits ? ..........anyone do that ?

Yes, The best hourly, 4 hour and even dailys can start with a signal from a 5 minute bar.
So like someone once said (T Dante I think), if you must look at TF's other than the one you trade, look up not down.

This says to me its more about levels the market is at than the TF

 

[forker]

Yes, The best hourly, 4 hour and even dailys can start with a signal from a 5 minute bar.
So like someone once said (T Dante I think), if you must look at TF's other than the one you trade, look up not down.

This says to me its more about levels the market is at than the TF

I agree, and the important levels that price tends to react to is difficult to see on the small time frames. I only take trades off dominant levels.