Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

Kevin, it is nonsense and he is trying to attract attention to himself in a different manner. Usually it is outright boorishness and rudeness. This time he has invented an imaginary carrot with which he thinks he can taunt all of us. Take no notice at all and don't waste effort or time in pursuing it, honestly.
 
DaveJB said:
But does repetition do any good?
I'm quite possibly mirroring, to a small degree, Soc's own feelings on this point - the psychology amounts to detaching yourself from the trading emotionally - have a plan, execute it. Deviate from the plan in exceptional circumstances - and, frankly, that should be so rare an occurrence as to be not worth planning for!
If you lose it is because your plan isn't good enough - you should KNOW your psychology wasn't a factor.

I would hazard that it is the divorce of emotion from trading that is the most difficult for traders, once they are past the initial problem of finding a method that works - personally I don't give a fig if you call my 'plan for making money' a system or a method, although Soc does. A trader with a 'plan' that only returns one winner in ten is going to struggle to make a profit, so you need to do better than that. A trader who can pick 6 winners out of ten should make money, some don't however because they can't take the step of following their plan like a robot, and allow fear and greed to influence their management of each trade.

Having the psychology in place, without a 'better than 5 out of 10' plan/system isn't going to work, neither is having the system/plan sorted if your psychology is going to hamstring you whenever the going gets tough - you need both. Now I would argue that 'the basement' and 'no indicators' contain plenty of advice on the psychological side - repeating it all again here serves no purpose, and anybody who wants Soc to do exactly that is committing, imo, one of Soc's deadly sins - too lazy to go back and read the extensive notes on psychology already posted.

On the other hand, the 'other leg' has been hardly touched on - assuming readers have the mindset, and I would expect many here to have read 'basement' and 'no indicators' at length, then some inroads into 'the knowledge' is overdue.

None of this is intended, Soc, as a dig at you - I believe we've reached a point where it is 'comfortable' to keep discussing how we all feel about trading, what our attitude should be, and so on... it is so much easier than attempting to improve on what we see when we look at a chart.
Dave
Many of these things can only be learnt by rote, by repetiion, and then, in the real world, very few are able to recognise what it is they ought not to do in order to begin to do what it is they ought to do, regardless of how many times they are told, warned, scolded or otherwise.
So don't you try my patience as well Dave JB, because you are already putting me on a short fuse with this post. <g>.
 
SOCRATES said:
I suggest you wade through my thread "Journey from the Basement" if you need to understand more clearly the problems that beset people when they try to tackle all this via their ordinary everyday selves.

No need to wade through anything. I understand it quite well. Unfortunately, it can take far longer than one might think for the necessity of dealing with these issues to become not only apparent but unavoidable, which is one reason why I've stopped trying to argue about it. When one is ready to hear it, it all seems so clear that he wonders why he didn't understand it before. If one isn't ready, it's just gobbledygook.

The lengths to which traders will go to insulate themselves against the realities of trading can be not only extraordinary but unimaginably complex. Perhaps yet another reason why so few succeed.
 
On the other hand, the 'other leg' has been hardly touched on - assuming readers have the mindset, and I would expect many here to have read 'basement' and 'no indicators' at length, then some inroads into 'the knowledge' is overdue.

No , it is not. If people are not capable in the first place of cultivating the correct mindset then the "knowledge" as you call it would fly straight past their heads, as the "knowledge" as you call it goes hand in hand with the right character and depends upon the suitability of the candidate to receive it.

This is very different to what is popularly bandied about, etc.,
 
I can only add my bit here and say that I learn from what does not work on the chart, after trading a number of times you can go over what worked and what did not. Did something happen suddenly to change the signal but at the time of entry it was correct, or was it an error of judgement / knowledge that caused it to fail. The simple fact is that if you keep a journal of all your trades then in my case I can establish what signals appeared to work the best. Not which produced the most individual profit but what repeat process worked more % of times than it failed. This can help to re-define your entry method/s or to aid making your method more selective. This can be reversed and you can look at what did not work and what common factor was present most. This can assist in helping to eradicate but practises.

What am I doing, going through a repeat process of price movement to produce price action that tends to do what you want more often than not. This of course is a visual approach and only one way to learn through repetition and from the visual aid noticing what you should not be doing.
 
"The lengths to which traders will go to insulate themselves against the realities of trading can be not only extraordinary but unimaginably complex. Perhaps yet another reason why so few succeed."...you can extend this statement way beyond trading DBP...and when I commented earlier about unlearning this is a large part of what I was referring to...
 
dbphoenix said:
No need to wade through anything. I understand it quite well. Unfortunately, it can take far longer than one might think for the necessity of dealing with these issues to become not only apparent but unavoidable, which is one reason why I've stopped trying to argue about it. When one is ready to hear it, it all seems so clear that he wonders why he didn't understand it before. If one isn't ready, it's just gobbledygook.

The lengths to which traders will go to insulate themselves against the realities of trading can be not only extraordinary but unimaginably complex. Perhaps yet another reason why so few succeed.
BINGO ! DB well said ! ~ thank goodness you have said it at last ! In my view the public has to be limited to what is strictly mechanical until they are capable of proving to the contrary. And even then they have huge problems in coming to terms with what is being laid in front of them in the most simple language. This is why I have kept silent and not posted on your thread. I have been observing the kind of problems you encounter also when you try to put across the simplest of concepts according to the theories of RDW, let alone trying to take the topic any higher.
 
Thirteen said:
im sure half of the profitable traders would disagree with you albert. are u suggesting that the yield on bond is in fact not worthy of knowing when trading bonds? surely not. are you saying the expected crop yield when trading agricultures are of no use? albert - u shock me with this!

maybe u dont know as much as u think, as 2 be honest, i c a lot of pages about nothing in particular

albert - please enlighten us all with your knowledge! why not explain the 3 types of situation that will change price value relationship? come on. we all know how clever u think u are.....

(dont ask me to answer this as i refuse. i am not here to educate u albert as i am beginning to suspect u know very little about market action, just a lot of history and prychobabble
What gives you the notion you may have the right that I should waste any effort on you, when all you can offer is abuse and rudeness, because all of this, by your admission is for the purpose of your amusement, is it not ? Well you can go and amuse yourself somewhere else, and there you have it, blunt and to the point ! And don't interrupt again, and know your place !
 
SOCRATES said:
If people are not capable in the first place of cultivating the correct mindset then the "knowledge" as you call it would fly straight past their heads, as the "knowledge" as you call it goes hand in hand with the right character and depends upon the suitability of the candidate to receive it.

One of the more lasting of the images I carry around in my head comes from The Miracle Worker, at the point at which Annie Sullivan (Anne Bancroft) is holding Helen's (Patty Duke) hand under the pump and trying to convey that the word "water" is the thing water. The look on Patty Duke's face when she finally understands is probably a large part of the reason why she won the Oscar.
 
DB, I haven't seen it. I will ask my wife if she can obtain a video. I have been too busy all these years unravellling all of this riddle to have time to devote to cinema. I do not, however regret the odessey, but it is alarming to me that simple things which are patently obvious are not obvious to the majority of people.
 
I have been posting on the thread below earlier...this is to me a classic example of part of what I mean by unlearning ... it's to do with the process of thinking analytically

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?p=133318#post133318

Here we have a large part of our population who have spent a great part of their lives following a misconception.. that is ..they thought they KNEW the rules of the game...they THOUGHT they were in control and yet if we analyse the pension process as it has existed in this country it is blatently obvious that they are in fact 'living in hope' ...they control very little of this process...the rest they have delegated and arguably even in today's situation they still don't realise the fundamental flaw in their thinking ...now bring this to trading and what do you have ?
 
SOCRATES said:
DB, I haven't seen it. I will ask my wife if she can obtain a video. I have been too busy all these years unravellling all of this riddle to have time to devote to cinema..

It should be out by now. It was released in 1962. :)
 
chump said:
.this is to me a classic example of part of what I mean by unlearning ... it's to do with the process of thinking analytically

I assume that the "organic" approach introduced into the infant and primary schools back in the sixties didn't solve this problem?
 
Soc,
sorry - I had hoped my final paragraph would have suggested that I wasn't attempting to try your patience - however, you have been teaching the psychology of your approach on here for something like 5 months, with quite a lot of posts on the subject, I am merely suggesting that 'if they haven't followed it so far then they never will'. If you intend to wait for everyone then you aren't going to advance beyond the current point.
That 'they' might include me would be my failing - any moderately intelligent reader of T2W has had plenty to read on the subject, rather than expecting you to repost it all they should go read what you already said.

I'm not arguing with you here, I heartliy agree that the trader must be logical in their approach, a stop should be placed to cover the case where ones assessment proves incorrect, there ought not be any emotional baggage attached... emotions cause variation in how you trade, if your tools/setups produce a suitable win:lose ratio then applying it rigorously should be the goal - not a debate as the exit signal flashes onscreen.

Yes:

"as the "knowledge" as you call it goes hand in hand with the right character and depends upon the suitability of the candidate to receive it. This is very different to what is popularly bandied about, etc."

Fair point, if the reader isn't able to absorb the information then that is indeed what one must expect to happen - and I agree, there is no onus on yourself (for example) to impart said knowedge to all and sundry as if they had the right to acquire it from you. I don't see that going over the psychology again is a good use of your time when a simple referral to the two previous threads would cover it quite adequately.
After all, anyone who cannot be bothered to read those threads is hardly going to follow anything that requires effort that you might add to what has gone before, are they?

Best regards,
Dave
 
Chump,
one 'unlearn' I can think of - the inherent "trust in government/authority" inbred in my generation, albeit imperfectly as occasionally some of us doubted our best interests were being served!

This is perhaps a British disease, we trusted 'the powers that be' to ensure a pension if we kept our heads down, and trusted insurance companies with our endowment mortgages etc- the 'trust' extended so far that when some of our public utilities were privatised and sold off I distinctly remember (was it Gas?) the shares were trading on the market substantially below the price they were being sold to 'common folk' at the post office etc. - yet still 'common folk' bought over the counter, rather than going all flash and buying via the bank. (A TV interview on the street involved one punter being stopped enroute the post office and informed of the cheaper alternative 2-3 doors down the street - mistrustful of city types he continued into the post office...)

Memory is hazy, but way back then it stuck in my mind that the lumpen proletariat had been conditioned to view share ownership (allowed to buy their own privatised assets yet!) as a good think, but not educated enough to know they how to buy the shares efficiently!

Dave
 
Well, Dave JB, we were talking about tuition, and you brought up the topic of "inroads into the knowledge".

Well, since you mention it, I am going to tell you all about it. You see, several years ago, I had spent a long long time in isolation determined to crack the riddle. This went on for years. On one occasion, I remember not going to bed for four days, and having all my meals served on a tray, because there was a situation that occurs in the market that particularly baffled me and I was determined to crack it, at any cost.

As it happened, the realisation came to me not much later when I was not consciously thinking about it, and then, I was so excited I stayed up all night examining it from every angle possible in every market for which I had information (the whole of the 10/4 menu actually) to verify it to my satisfaction, which I did.

So perhaps you may by now be getting the drift that I am capable of putting some effort into what is worthwhile, if the circumstances merit. The amount of effort must be proportional to the importance of the mission.

But unfortunately the majority of people would never consider grafting with such intensity without any guarantee of a result. People are driven by expectation, the amount of effort they are prepared to put in is proportional (at best ) to the level of expectation they have about a percieved outcome.

Ordinary people do not persist, like Edison did, in his 16,000 attempts to create a reliable lightbulb ! In fact, the common is the opposite, the great majority are not prepared to graft at all. They do not view it as necessary. They think that for them to apply what they use in ordinary life is enough. It is very far from being enough. In addition the entire infrastructure that surrounds them is against them. This infrastructure that exists in ordinary life is the direct opposite to what is required in the world of trading.

I am sure that our friend DB Phoenix will not object if I quote what he posted in a reply above in Post No 261 above. He says, and quite rightly so "The lengths to which traders will go to insulate themselves against the realities of trading can be not only extraordinary but unimaginably complex. Perhaps yet another reason why so few succeed".


Within the context of trading and market knowledge generally speaking, ordinary people, and even when they cease to be by becoming aspirants, are still not interested in creation ~ they are interested in consumption. And they are interested in results immediately. And if these results can be achieved without effort, well, that is exactly what they want. And , if these results can be achieved immediately, even better, and hopefully yesterday would be better even still. By this I mean that the patience and attention span of the public is not that great. This is the great curse of modernity, in which everything should be made available, instantly, on demand. Not so. Unfortunately for aspirants not so, sorry.

And I am sure he will not mind if I quote him again, from the same post, No 261 above. He says, and quite rightly so : "No need to wade through anything. I understand it quite well. Unfortunately it can take longer than one might think for the necessity of dealing with these issues to become not only apparent but unavoidable, which is one reason why I have stopped trying to argue about it. When one is ready to hear it, it all seems so clear, that he wonders why he did not understand it before. If one isn't ready, its just gobbledegook".

So therefore, the audience is not ready for the knowledge because it is not.

In the next part of my reply to you, we begin to delve into the "inabilities". You will find it very interesting, now I must go, I am expecting a guest, I have to pick up at the railway station. More tomorrow, yes, more, so that you all benefit and so that I am satisfied. Ta Ta.
 
Dave,
"Trust" good word to use in that example ... but it is much wider than that ... we "trust" in so much ,we create biases that we are often completely unaware of..that's being charitable, because it may well be we are perfectly aware of them but choose the more comfortable option of not addressing them directly by questioning why we have such biased beliefs... but, this unquestioning process of arriving at beliefs doesn't stand up if you employ analytical thinking..trouble is traditional education didn't supply much of that did it...as we were discussing recently it is now finding it's way into education and that is promising...hence, for us older types at least there has been much to unlearn... there's a yorkshire saying " I'm not interested in what you say, I'm interested in what you do"...in other words I am interested in what are the facts that I can observe and if I employ analytical thought ,.where ,why , what etc etc what view can I derive ....well I did say earlier I might not get through this with full clarity ;)

DBP,
"Organic"? fruit,vegatable , or mineral ? ;) I think my comments above may have answered your question ?
 
DaveJB said:
Soc,
sorry - I had hoped my final paragraph would have suggested that I wasn't attempting to try your patience - however, you have been teaching the psychology of your approach on here for something like 5 months, with quite a lot of posts on the subject, I am merely suggesting that 'if they haven't followed it so far then they never will'. If you intend to wait for everyone then you aren't going to advance beyond the current point.
That 'they' might include me would be my failing - any moderately intelligent reader of T2W has had plenty to read on the subject, rather than expecting you to repost it all they should go read what you already said.

I'm not arguing with you here, I heartliy agree that the trader must be logical in their approach, a stop should be placed to cover the case where ones assessment proves incorrect, there ought not be any emotional baggage attached... emotions cause variation in how you trade, if your tools/setups produce a suitable win:lose ratio then applying it rigorously should be the goal - not a debate as the exit signal flashes onscreen.

Yes:

"as the "knowledge" as you call it goes hand in hand with the right character and depends upon the suitability of the candidate to receive it. This is very different to what is popularly bandied about, etc."

Fair point, if the reader isn't able to absorb the information then that is indeed what one must expect to happen - and I agree, there is no onus on yourself (for example) to impart said knowedge to all and sundry as if they had the right to acquire it from you. I don't see that going over the psychology again is a good use of your time when a simple referral to the two previous threads would cover it quite adequately.
After all, anyone who cannot be bothered to read those threads is hardly going to follow anything that requires effort that you might add to what has gone before, are they?

Best regards,
Dave
No ! They are going to have it rivetted, and rivertted hard, in the hope they can be dragged to learn what not to do and eventually, what it is they ought to be really doing !
 
chump said:
DBP,
"Organic"? fruit,vegatable , or mineral ? ;) I think my comments above may have answered your question ?

No, you're probably too young to remember. I have no idea what infant, primary, and junior education are like these days, so I'll have to leave it up to a Brit that was there back then.
 
DBP,
Not too young, too old...I was probably coming out of the educational process at the time you mention... DaveJB will know more as that is his province..
 
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