Brexit - in or out

[Atilla]

Thanks for making my case that the EU is an inward looking protectionist club.

First class job you did there.

Well Merkel and Germany have a manufacturing industry and a very healthy one.


Thatcher is dead and British manufacturing decimated.


You leave me speechless.

 

[barjon]

Thanks for making my case that the EU is an inward looking protectionist club.

First class job you did there.

so you don't mind everything being owned by foreigners as long as they don't sully our shores with their presence.

 

[mike.]

Angela Merkel’s trip to China next week.

On a separate issue,

Why in the UK is she always referenced to as An-gerr-la Merkel ?

I assume that's how its pronounced in German as opposed to An-jel-a. Same with Colin Powell, the uk media pronounced it Coe-lin like in usa...:innocent:

 

[counter_violent]

so you don't mind everything being owned by foreigners as long as they don't sully our shores with their presence.

If they want to invest here cos it's a great place to do business......who am I to argue

 

[counter_violent]

Well Merkel and Germany have a manufacturing industry and a very healthy one.


Thatcher is dead and British manufacturing decimated.


You leave me speechless.

This also proves that you don't read and digest any of my posts.

Manufacturing declines as a percentage of gdp across all developed and developing countries as manufacturers shift operations around the globe seeking out cheap labour in undeveloped regions.

This is an undisputable fact.

 

[barjon]

If they want to invest here cos it's a great place to do business......who am I to argue

.....and a gateway to Europe. Who am I to argue

 

[mike.]

The treasury forecasts a loss of 0.1% in GDP per quarter pre brexit...

Put into context, GDP dipped by 7% after the 2008 financial crash

Good old Andrew Neil has them squirming in their seat...

 

[counter_violent]

The treasury forecasts a loss of 0.1% in GDP per quarter pre brexit...

Put into context, GDP dipped by 7% after the 2008 financial crash

Good old Andrew Neil has them squirming in their seat...

Andrew Neil has done some great interviews, all worth watching.

 

[counter_violent]

.....and a gateway to Europe. Who am I to argue

Makes absolutely no difference to trade with EU countries.

The positive difference it would make for the UK would be we can trade anywhere we like in the world without having to go through the slow moving EU machine.

 

[Signalcalc]

BBC reporting that the Swedish govt predict a domino effect on Brexit, so be it, if the people want out then why should govts stop it?

Then the report states: "The Swedish foreign minister also confirmed the introduction of strict regulations and laws on trading in weapons with countries that were not full democracies."

Huh? How would Brexit change us into an undemocratic country and the irony, we leave an undemocratic institution and become more democratic in the process.

Honestly, what are these govts on?

 

[barjon]

..................Makes absolutely no difference to trade with EU countries...............

How do you work that out?

 

[Splitlink]

They reckon that 23% of the port of Barcelona is owned by Chinese interests (probably more now--I'm a slow reader) but I've never seen a Chinaman doing anything except work for a living. All the bums and stiffs begging on the streets seem to belong to someone else, including us. There are plenty here, though, and are opening shops all over the country.

If Cataluña leaves Spain it will, according to the EU Treaty, be excluded from Europe. Catalans seem damned sure of themselves that that won't happen. I thought that only one vote would block another applicant's entry but, is that true? If so, what would China do, switch to an easier port within the EU?

I am asking,here, because I have read, on this thread, by the pro-Brexits, that Turkey will be a member in a few years. If the veto is a fact, why are Brexiteers worried about this? UK inside the EU will always block Turkish membership. In fact, the UK could have blocked any other country's membership after they joined, couldn't they? I believe that France, under de Gaulle, did that to the UK for many years.

Will Brussels fudge around this issue and allow Cataluña in, if the matter arises?

 

[counter_violent]

How do you work that out?

It's dead simple.

Germany sells loads of BMW's in the UK
France sells loads of wine to the UK
The trade deficit the UK has with Europe is massive.

Now are you telling me that if we leave, German and French businesses are going to allow Brussels to impose sanctions on the UK? Cut off their noses to spite their face !

Never going to happen is it.

 

[Atilla]

It's dead simple.

Germany sells loads of BMW's in the UK
France sells loads of wine to the UK
The trade deficit the UK has with Europe is massive.

Now are you telling me that if we leave, German and French businesses are going to allow Brussels to impose sanctions on the UK? Cut off their noses to spite their face !

Never going to happen is it.

Well Germany and France may want to but you are forgetting Portugal, Italy and Spain.

They will have a few words to say about that not to mention the others.



On the other hand what does one do if decision to relocate originates from the Japanese or Chinese?

 

[barjon]

My Reasons for voting to Remain

1. After hundreds of years fighting each other EU countries now live together in peace thanks to their membership. I believe we have a responsibility to stay joined with our neighbours to help ensure that continues. So far as our own security is concerned we could rely on NATO but that would duck that responsibility which I wish to retain.

2. When I look back at our postwar economic performance pre-joining the Common Market and since I can't help but conclude that membership has proved beneficial so far as investment and jobs are concerned. As well as enforcing (often most irritatingly) a range of worker, consumer and social issues.

3. I want the certainty of advantageous trading terms with EU countries as opposed to the possibility of obtaining similar terms.

4. Free movement of the EU workforce enables easier resolution of our skill shortages and job vacancies. I believe this is really beneficial and shudder to think what my local hospital would do without EU nurses and doctors.

5. Immigration is a problem much wider than the EU (although free movement of non-worker EU citizens doesn't help) and I believe it is not a problem that can be solved by ourselves in isolation. The EU hasn't got its act together but it must and we should work from within to help generate effective action.

 

[counter_violent]

Well Germany and France may want to but you are forgetting Portugal, Italy and Spain.

They will have a few words to say about that not to mention the others.



On the other hand what does one do if decision to relocate originates from the Japanese or Chinese?

Spain exports 22B to us and we export 14.5B to them.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/esp/

Portugal exports 3.83B to us and we export less to them.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prt/

Italy exports 28.1B to us and we export less to them.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/ita/

So, once again you completely lose the argument.

 

[counter_violent]

My Reasons for voting to Remain

1. After hundreds of years fighting each other EU countries now live together in peace thanks to their membership. I believe we have a responsibility to stay joined with our neighbours to help ensure that continues. So far as our own security is concerned we could rely on NATO but that would duck that responsibility which I wish to retain.

2. When I look back at our postwar economic performance pre-joining the Common Market and since I can't help but conclude that membership has proved beneficial so far as investment and jobs are concerned. As well as enforcing (often most irritatingly) a range of worker, consumer and social issues.

3. I want the certainty of advantageous trading terms with EU countries as opposed to the possibility of obtaining similar terms.

4. Free movement of the EU workforce enables easier resolution of our skill shortages and job vacancies. I believe this is really beneficial and shudder to think what my local hospital would do without EU nurses and doctors.

5. Immigration is a problem much wider than the EU (although free movement of non-worker EU citizens doesn't help) and I believe it is not a problem that can be solved by ourselves in isolation. The EU hasn't got its act together but it must and we should work from within to help generate effective action.

How are those odds looking?
Tumbling I hear

 

[Atilla]

Spain exports 22B to us and we export 14.5B to them.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/esp/

Portugal exports 3.83B to us and we export less to them.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prt/

Italy exports 28.1B to us and we export less to them.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/ita/

So, once again you completely lose the argument.

First of all, this is not about winning or losing arguments. This discussion about the pros and cons of Brexit. I rather lose the arguments and millions are better off for it.

What you say is true under the proviso all else remain the same as before. NOTHING will remain the same when the UK leaves the EU and tears up the regulatory rules and commission directives on trade for membership.

There is the Treaty of Rome stipulates rules for inter-trade in the union. Harmonisation of taxation and tariffs are key among many other policies to produce a balanced and integrated common market.

So after the 2nd year if UK unilaterally starts making changes to tariffs and cherry picks EU rules it chooses to adhere to whilst ignoring others, giving it unfair advantage over other countries, the balance of trade will have to change.

Think about it.

Nigel Farage on QT counteracts fall in sterling raising fuel and food prices by stating we will be free to remove Tariffs on imports that the EU imposes.

I'll spell it out for you.

1. UK reduces tariffs on non-EU imports which become cheaper than imports from EU

2. EU exports to UK fall

3. UK exports to EU rise as imports fall
a) because UK now substitute goods and services from rest of the world
b) because sterling falls UK exports are cheaper in EU

Now what happens to your clever little argument and the impact this will have on the 44% of our current exports to the EU?


We are told Nigel.F was a trader so I'm sure he knows all this but continues to make the claims.

 

[Atilla]

Nigel Farage accused of hypocrisy over vote against EU law that could have helped British steel

Here is something else relating to the steel industry. Once again I'll spell it out for you.

1. China is a very efficient and high producer of steel.
2. No way UK can compete with China
3. China can't shift steel stock at home and chooses to sell to UK below cost of UK production
4. Steel is a strategic industry for the UK
5. What do you do?
a) Close the plant down and simply import all steel from China
b) Protect strategic industry or invest in making it more productive
c) Simply unite with EU to split trade between member countries benefiting from a bigger market.
d) Remembering steel manufacturing is a key input to military output
e) R&D new materials to substitute for steel production in complimentary or substitute industries.


Really need balance in the economy and whilst you may say simply service industries trump manufacturing ones, the strategic transfer takes a long time to switch and it is debatable if every UK citizen will have a place in the leisure and finance industries.

I'm afraid the whole international business is much more complex than is laid out to the electorate.


What I would like to know is by reducing tariffs to the rest of the World and substituting EU imports with those from the BRICS, what will the UK export to the rest of the World that it can't export now?

You really haven't asked or answered this question have you?

UK will be swamped with BRIC goods and services and migrants. BUT what will you sell to them that you can't already do so now? Simple question?


You going to sell Dyson household goods. Well Dyson already sells 80% to the rest of the word against 20% to the EU. What else?

 

[Atilla]

As the eurozone economy continues to stagnate, the proportion of British trade accounted for by the rest of the EU is falling, and non-European markets are becoming more important for British exporters. But this is not a reason for the UK to leave the EU.

Membership of the EU significantly increases Britain’s trade with other member-states, while there is little evidence that it reduces trade with countries outside the Union. Britain is home to a larger stock of EU and US foreign direct investment (FDI) than any other EU economy and is the preferred location for investment from other leading markets. Some of this investment would be threatened by a UK exit from the EU.

If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory.