Brexit - in or out

[barjon]

That's why this referendum is so important. If we vote to stay in, this will send entirely the wrong signal to Brussels. Then regardless of our 5 yr term elections in this country, the EU will do whatever they like. Business as usual, is how they will see it.

Bit of a catch 22. We vote leave to send them the right message.They hear it and make changes for the better which we can't enjoy from outside the door.

 

[Signalcalc]

Well, that's written off almost everyone

I suppose if such a jaundiced view of things was based in fact then you'd probably have a good case.

Which bit would you like a fact for, let's see if I can build a case!

 

[barjon]

Which bit would you like a fact for, let's see if I can build a case!

You'll be able to find a few examples I'm sure, but to write off the forest because of a few diseased trees is going it a bit

 

[Mr Sept]

Unelected EU Commission bureaucrats can make day to day decisions and frame regulations (as do our own civil servants here). Any law, however, has to be jointly adopted by the European Parliament ( directly elected) and the Council of Ministers (indirectly elected).

I think there is little doubt that the directly elected European Parliament
members should have more power to hold the Commission to account but the structure is not entirely non-democratic.

You could argue that UK is not democratic in the sense that the will of the people is not sacrosanct. We vote for people where the majority form a government and lead us for the term of that government. They can make what decisions they like during that term whether or not the majority of citizens agree with them or not. Our system is one of voting for representational leadership not decision by referendum. We can throw out the party of government at election time if we don't like what they have done but, in essence, we vote to provide for a five year dictatorship each time- sufficient parliamentary majority allowing.

...raises an eyebrow on this dis-information.

 

[barjon]

Today it's 1/6 stay, 4/1 leave

 

[barjon]

...raises an eyebrow on this dis-information.

What bit?

 

[counter_violent]

You'll be able to find a few examples I'm sure, but to write off the forest because of a few diseased trees is going it a bit

Well, to use this analogy. The diseased trees happen to be the largest trees in the forest. So, fell them and the forest will flourish.

 

[counter_violent]

Bit of a catch 22. We vote leave to send them the right message.They hear it and make changes for the better which we can't enjoy from outside the door.

We all know don't we that the EU works at a snails pace. That's if they do anything at all, let alone, do anything properly. Like I said the other day, we don't want to be shackled to a corpse.

 

[barjon]

Well, to use this analogy. The diseased trees happen to be the largest trees in the forest. So, fell them and the forest will flourish.

Touché

 

[Atilla]

Glad to see the Far Right didn't win in Austria.

:clap:

Yes very glad my uncle Alexander Van der Bellen of the Green party has performed an excellent service to the mother land

 

[counter_violent]

Yes very glad my uncle Alexander Van der Bellen of the Green party has performed an excellent service to the mother land

By pipping the other candidate to the finishing post

You really don't get it do you. The EU party is over. When it doesn't have the consent of the people, it's just a matter of time !

 

[Atilla]

By pipping the other candidate to the finishing post

You really don't get it do you. The EU party is over. When it doesn't have the consent of the people, it's just a matter of time !

Alexander Van der Bellen, a retired economics professor backed by the Green party, defeated Norbert Hofer, of the anti-immigrant, Eurosceptic Freedom party, a day after polling closed and only when more than 700,000 postal ballots – about 10% of available votes – were taken into account.

 

[Sonicscooter]

Alexander Van der Bellen, a retired economics professor backed by the Green party, defeated Norbert Hofer, of the anti-immigrant, Eurosceptic Freedom party, a day after polling closed and only when more than 700,000 postal ballots – about 10% of available votes – were taken into account.

You made that statement very misleading, the greens won by one 31,000 votes.


And that's out of 4.64 million votes cast.

 

[Sonicscooter]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36362210



Cracks in your dream.......it never was going to be a wet dream......but it's a mere step from a nightmare........some time spent in history would have been a bonus....

 

[Splitlink]

You made that statement very misleading, the greens won by one 31,000 votes.


And that's out of 4.64 million votes cast.

That's a narrow majority, to be sure, but its not a referendum, is it? I would not be happy if my government left the EU on that number of votes and, if you were, it would suggest to me that you had other fish to fry, other than obeying the nation's wishes.

That is what the unions used to do. Have a quorum and bring the whole workforce out on strike.
All very democratic.

 

[Atilla]

You made that statement very misleading, the greens won by one 31,000 votes.


And that's out of 4.64 million votes cast.

Cut and paste from the press.

No different to the Telegraph links.


Funny how numbers shift under the microscope :cheesy:

 

[Sonicscooter]

Cut and paste from the press.

No different to the Telegraph links.


Funny how numbers shift under the microscope :cheesy:

BBC, where would you like me to get the numbers from.....


Or have i missed your point.......

 

[Atilla]

BBC, where would you like me to get the numbers from.....


Or have i missed your point.......

The Guardian

 

[Atilla]

Sovereignty and Voting in the EU.


https://fullfact.org/europe/how-often-does-eu-overrule-british-ministers/

Key facts highlighted.


Now that the EU referendum has been set for June 23rd, we will be bringing you new factchecks and explainers on topics ranging from immigration to trade. We will also be going over all of our older content on Europe and the EU to make sure it's ready for voters.

Some posts will be rewritten, others will be kept up for historic interest or archived. This is one of the posts we'll be reviewing.

"on 55 occasions British Ministers have said they will object to an EU directive, and on 55 occasions they have been over-ruled."

Nigel Farage, UKIP leader, BBC Question Time, 8 May 2014
Ahead of the EU parliament elections taking place later this month, Nigel Farage pointed yesterday to the lack of influence Britain enjoys in the corridors of Brussels.

His figures come from analysis by campaign group Business for Britain on voting at the EU Council. While Nigel Farage's claim reflects their research, there's only so much it can tell us about the UK's success at votes: not all member states will vote in the same way as the position they've taken in informal discussions, and some decisions effectively take place elsewhere.

55 measures opposed by the UK; 55 defeats

Business for Britain recently analysed votes which took place at the Council of the EU since 1996. The Council is where national ministers from each EU country meet to decide on laws. The decisions they take must be unanimous in some cases (for instance foreign and security policy) or require a simple or qualified majority in others.

Business for Britain identified and listed - using publicly available sources and Freedom of Information Requests - 55 occasions in which the UK voted 'no' to a measure put before the Council and when the measure passed anyway because the UK was outvoted.

UK says no more often

Studies elsewhere have found that, since 2009, the UK is the most rebellious member state at the Council, although it still voted 'yes' 91% of the time.

Similarly, from 1995 to 2010 the UK was the second most common 'no' voter behind Germany.

The House of Commons Library has discussed separately the evidence surrounding the UK's voting record and how it differs to other member states.

But votes don't tell the whole story

As Business for Britain concedes in its own report: "national governments usually try and stop proposals that they don't like from ever reaching the Council of the European Union".

In fact, some research has suggested that around 70% of decisions are actually taken in practice before they reach a council vote. The Permanent Representatives Committee (COREPER), for instance, is made up of civil servants from member states who take part in the decision-making process without formally voting.

Various commentators have argued that this has an effect on how member states behave. Some may, for instance, oppose a policy informally but vote in favour with the majority so as not to appear isolated. And others may never go to a vote because of significant opposition early on.

These 'informal' maneuverings obviously aren't as measurable as formal votes, so there are limits to what research can tell us about the UK's 'influence' at the EU Council.

With that in mind, simply pointing to 55 occasions in which the UK has been overruled by the rest of the Council doesn't necessarily reflect that the UK has no influence on the policies that come out. We should also be asking about the policies that don't ever make it to a vote.

 

[mike.]

This time next month will be the start of a whole new journey outside of the EU..

Anybody planning a street party, to cheer up remain-in sheeple...?