Brexit - in or out

[forker]

You're a great one for logical thought, forker, so is it logical to walk out on someone and expect them to offer you the same advantageous deal as you had before? I think we'd make a fair stab at going it alone, but I can't believe those unelected Eurocratswould allow us all the EU advantages without taking on any of the responsibilities.

The coming together of European countries has, for the first time, stopped them going to war with each other and that is worth all the inconveniences and suspect administration. You make think that war is a thing of the history books, but the last one for us was less than a lifetime ago and the peace since is worth protecting at all costs.

You touch on good point (war) which I do agree. That being said, the EU has managed avoided internally. I don't think this will last because people are going to reach a point where they will not accept having lost their democracy. It is already evident in news with fractions developing in many EU states holding this view. I suspect in time the EU will have to allow democracy into its ranks to avoid war.

 

[forker]

For the record I am not asking for the same advantage in terms of a trade deal. There will obviously be a different trade deal but you have to remember that approximately 16 percent of the EU's exports are to the UK. That's not an insignificant slice. Do you really think major EU firms are not going to lobby deals to preserve their business. Putting EU aside for a moment. Exports outside the EU are growing while exports shrink inside. The EU needs us and this is evident by their cries of disaster if we leave.

 

[forker]

If I would like to go and live in Spain or Italy for the latter part of my life how will all this voting one way or the other re:Sovereignty effect me?

When I grow up I'd like to be like Nigel too but with one small difference; vote for UK to stay in the EU.

All these shenanigans for what exactly? Vote for some hypothetical law about some hypothetical parliamentarian. How does that impact your real life?

Can we have another more meaningful example other than being forced to wear pink tights

It impacts every part of our lives every day. Everything you do in your daily life is affected by EU legislation. There is that chestnut of moving abroad and I do see your point there. Unfortunately, while the open door policy is great in theory, it is not proving to be practical is it! While you are enjoying the sun, we are suffering from overly used public services. They mentioned in the debate that we need to build a house every 4 minutes to keep up with immigration.

 

[Atilla]

It impacts every part of our lives every day. Everything you do in your daily life is affected by EU legislation. There is that chestnut of moving abroad and I do see your point there. Unfortunately, while the open door policy is great in theory, it is not proving to be practical is it! While you are enjoying the sun, we are suffering from overly used public services. They mentioned in the debate that we need to build a house every 4 minutes to keep up with immigration.

It should be easy to list some of those negative impacts then.

Here is a positive, based on heating insulation, London Borough of Redbridge received a £5m grant from EU to insulate council homes. LOADS of little biddies were kept much warmer than they would have been at half the cost.

With respect to public services, I look around and all the very low paid workers running our public services are from abroad.

I also love Polish and Lithuanian builders.

Sorry matey but I see positives. I see people wanting to work extra hard and well for less money.

I see improved services.

Must confess I don't always like standing next to them on packed tube trains but wouldn't hold that against them. Or how they talk damn loud. Or sometimes how they smell bad. No doubt that's because I work in nice offices and they do sweaty b0ll0cks jobs but that's life. At hospitals there seems to be more foreigners but then again so are the nurses looking after them.

Whilst I relate to some of your gripes on balance, I see it as positive for the UK.

 

[forker]

it costs us around 35 million every day to be in the EU and it is estimated we get back about half of it which includes this upgrade you mentioned. So it's not as if the EU has said, oh here is some free money to help you along. It's a case of the EU giving us back half the money we gave them in the first place. Your argument is weak but I respect your opinion as you are entitled to it.

 

[forker]

Also, all those low paid foreign workers you referring to filling our public services jobs. These people need to live somewhere and use public services. There is a limit to what our services can deliver but we are unable to cap migration so what happens when we go beyond breaking point. Some would argue we are there now.

If net migration is higher than our ability to service and house people then where is there any benefit. Waiting hours to see A&E or not being able to afford a house because the demand is so high that people are priced out. I read an article a while back that there are 75 underground stations in London where the average 4 bedroom house is over a million pounds.

What about our fishermen. They can't even catch a mile off the coast because other EU countries have more entitlement than they do. The EU is even offering our fishermen money to destroy their boats and get out of the industry. Money that we have likely paid them to do it.

All I see is burden,loss of democracy, strain on services, uncontrolled migration, legislation that prevents opportunity, and management of the whole thing from people I never elected. The EU is headed one way and it's evident by the rising fractions against it and lack of growth compared to the rest of the world. Why would anyone want to be part of this is beyond me.

 

[Splitlink]

it costs us around 35 million every day to be in the EU and it is estimated we get back about half of it which includes this upgrade you mentioned. So it's not as if the EU has said, oh here is some free money to help you along. It's a case of the EU giving us back half the money we gave them in the first place. Your argument is weak but I respect your opinion as you are entitled to it.

Ok, forker. You don't win but I admit that I have not delved too much into the figures. Therefore, I am not going to debate about something that others are more qualified to do. In any case, you know the old saying about statistics and lies and there are plenty of politicians to listen to who make good use of them.

What matters is that you do the right thing. A few years, or so, will tell. Without doubt, we, here, know that there is a lot wrong with the EU but it got along before the UK joined and will do so afterwards.

 

[tomorton]

Who believes the government will extract the UK from the EU if the referendum gives an out result? They don't have to, the vote isn't legally binding, and exit would be contrary to Conservative party policy. (also Labour and Lib-Dem)

 

[forker]

Not legally binding, to who, the EU?

 

[Pat494]

It's not too likely the Conservatives will get in at the next election. Reneging on the referendum would be the last straw in duplicity and goodbye Dodgy Dave.

 

[tomorton]

It's not too likely the Conservatives will get in at the next election. Reneging on the referendum would be the last straw in duplicity and goodbye Dodgy Dave.

The Conservatives might not command massive support but there's no opposition.

 

[forker]

Probably another coalition

 

[counter_violent]

Lol, you must be living under a rock. In 5 years I can vote the idiot out that hasn't performed. In 5 years the same idiots will be defining laws that we have to live by and I can't get them out. It's a. Case of logical versus stupidity.

Just to expand on this with a twist.
Unelectable Kinnock didn't give up on his quest for real power despite being rejected by UK voters. He and his mrs became EU commissioners, who given the real power structure within Europe, wielded more power over the UK population than he would ever have had being PM. In the time they spent on the gravy train, they amassed some 20 mill quid.

European democracy my ar*e !

 

[Pat494]

Just to expand on this with a twist.
Unelectable Kinnock didn't give up on his quest for real power despite being rejected by UK voters. He and his mrs became EU commissioners, who given the real power structure within Europe, wielded more power over the UK population than he would ever have had being PM. In the time they spent on the gravy train, they amassed some 20 mill quid.

European democracy my ar*e !

Wasn't it Kinnock's job to tackle corruption in the EU ? I never heard how many he put behind bars. Sorta between 0 and er not many I guess but if anyone knows then tell us all.

 

[counter_violent]

Do you know what? It will not make any difference to us, whether you are in or out. It is you who seem to be doing the worrying. Make the right choice, mate, and Good Luck.

I, really, mean that. Life is short and we might as well be happy with what we want to do. That is why you live there and I live here. However, it is not me who lives in Cloud Cuckoo Land, I said before that you have a choice, once, every five years, so make this good because referendums are different.

Beg to differ Split.
Without UK involvement in the EU project....there will be no EU project. Mark my words, if we leave, you can watch it all fall apart !

 

[counter_violent]

There is a pattern emerging.

So far we have remain side trotting out institutional leaders like Carney BOE, Legard IMF, Obama US pres, crony capitalist corp leaders, (probably looking for gongs) and on it goes. None of this group should really be expressing an opinion, they are supposed to be impartial !

All this propaganda should be challenged. These people are dangerous self servers, who's only interest is in preserving the system for their own ends.

 

[forker]

I can't understand how people can be content with their democracy being slowly cut away. The EU want tighter integration so there goes most of the little that remains. I can't sit by and watch it happen. My children need to have a future where they can have a say and a chance to change things. This isn't acceptable.

 

[Atilla]

it costs us around 35 million every day to be in the EU and it is estimated we get back about half of it which includes this upgrade you mentioned. So it's not as if the EU has said, oh here is some free money to help you along. It's a case of the EU giving us back half the money we gave them in the first place. Your argument is weak but I respect your opinion as you are entitled to it.

Well I'm glad you acknowledge there are at least some pay backs. But yes you are right nothing in life is free.

So do you think the UK would be able to have a space program on her own?

Do you think the UK would be able to participate in the Large Hadron Collider experiments or be able to afford such research on her own?


http://www.theguardian.com/higher-e...annot-afford-to-lose-out-on-this-pot-of-money


Just one example of an EU initiative illustrates its huge potential. Andre Geim and Kostya Novoselov, Manchester’s Nobel laureates and graphene pioneers, were awarded €1bn over 10 years by the EU’s Future and Emerging Technologies scheme to work with academic and commercial partners. Their goal: to transform their chance discovery into a whole new family of technologies and industries.

We don’t all win Nobels, and most EU funding is not so generous. But scientists love evidence, and the evidence is clear. Bluntly, if the UK were to leave the EU, we would massively and irreversibly damage an enterprise on which our future depends.

How do you think these R&D projects are jointly managed?

Add the Typhoon EuroFighter development project to that list too?

I doubt it even registers on your consideration radar as an after thought.


There is much more at stake here than I think you appreciate or value as being worthy. City of London wants in. UK Science wants in.

England needs your vote. Don't be led by Brexiters who are politicians more interested in maintaining their power base.

Have an open mind and weigh the arguments and value the cost benefit analysis carefully.

I too respect your views. I wouldn't spend so much time answering them or try and win you over to the in vote otherwise.

All the best matey

 

[Atilla]

Also, all those low paid foreign workers you referring to filling our public services jobs. These people need to live somewhere and use public services. There is a limit to what our services can deliver but we are unable to cap migration so what happens when we go beyond breaking point. Some would argue we are there now.

If net migration is higher than our ability to service and house people then where is there any benefit. Waiting hours to see A&E or not being able to afford a house because the demand is so high that people are priced out. I read an article a while back that there are 75 underground stations in London where the average 4 bedroom house is over a million pounds.

What about our fishermen. They can't even catch a mile off the coast because other EU countries have more entitlement than they do. The EU is even offering our fishermen money to destroy their boats and get out of the industry. Money that we have likely paid them to do it.

All I see is burden,loss of democracy, strain on services, uncontrolled migration, legislation that prevents opportunity, and management of the whole thing from people I never elected. The EU is headed one way and it's evident by the rising fractions against it and lack of growth compared to the rest of the world. Why would anyone want to be part of this is beyond me.

Increase in population and the market place is an advantage.

Influx of population raises GDP, suppresses wages and overcomes the ageing population scenario.

I'm afraid those arguments have another side which are considerably worse imo. Will refrain from writing another essay.

 

[Atilla]

There is a pattern emerging.

So far we have remain side trotting out institutional leaders like Carney BOE, Legard IMF, Obama US pres, crony capitalist corp leaders, (probably looking for gongs) and on it goes. None of this group should really be expressing an opinion, they are supposed to be impartial !

All this propaganda should be challenged. These people are dangerous self servers, who's only interest is in preserving the system for their own ends.

So who should be speaking out then? Nobody else is left. Average Joe knows Jack.

Just at the thought of a Brexit vote the pound will be dumped, markets go into flight mode with hot capital flows out of the country.

To attract capital interest rates may have to rise.

Then you'll see a double whammy alright with falling pound, rising prices, falling incomes and higher interest rates people losing homes.

Be careful what you wish for. Do the sums and do the calculations.


I really don't think the public or you understands the impact of what is being offered as the alternative.

Yes things will sort them selves out in another 10 or 20 years time 'maybe' but at what cost.

UK may sink further down the ladder and lose global standing and esteem. We'll become just another country who's effed up again.


Be wary of people who promise to make you Great. Trump comes to mind and I have no idea why?