Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

Good read.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...t-hello-equivalence-brexit-banks-lower-sights

Goodbye Passport, Hello Equivalence? Brexit Banks Lower Sights

 

[dbphoenix]

Well, the West does have a voting system that could do that but, in the UK, at least, it has always been a pendulum system which has led to left and right excesses between two main parties. It needs a centralist party and I don't think that UKIP is the answer.. Spain has got fed up with the two party system, with the emergence of one leftist group--Podemos-- and Ciudadanos, a kind of Liberal group, I think, that is between our Labour and Conservative parties. But we have a deeper problem, which is the restlessness of some autonomous regions ie. Cataluña and the Basque Region.

All complicated stuff, the outcome of which has not been resolved.

In a way, this is a form of the revolution/rebellion I referred to earlier, but in this form the rebels circle the wagons and secede. An evolved approach would be to embrace globalism (or "internationalism", as some would have it) and the eradication of borders, but we're moving in the opposite direction.

Of course, we've been down the isolationism route before, but it's difficult to be isolationistic and imperialistic at the same time. I guess we'll all just build walls around ourselves and lob things over the tops with trebuchets.

 

[counter_violent]

Crony Corporate Capitalism

If I may interject, it's not so much a matter of redistribution of wealth but of fairness, which is why discussions of inequity will more likely be of benefit than discussions of inequality.

The wealthy have had it their way since at least the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. They have at the least suppressed wages and dismissed workers' rights, fought regulations, and sought every opportunity to reduce or eliminate taxes. This has resulted not only in substantial inequality but extreme inequity, the result of which is to gut the middle class (most of the poor don't make enough to pay taxes, except for those that are included in the cost of goods and services) and funnel more and more of the wealth which the working class generates to the wealthy. And as revenues decrease, governments must borrow in order to provide even basic services. Debts must therefore rise even if "austerity measures" are implemented. (It's not unlike dieting: one can reduce one's food intake only so much before one sickens and dies.) This lasts until those who are expected to live with austerity observe the wealthy not being affected by it at all say "enough" and rebel in either small or very large ways.

There are a number of ways of ameliorating the problem, e.g., tying executive officers' wages to workers' wages by means of a ratio, i.e., an executive may not make more than N times the average worker's wage (this was the case not too many decades ago but may seem like a new idea to many). Yes, there are lots of details to work out in terms of what constitutes "compensation" and what sort of benefits are provided, but to receive thousands of dollars (or more) per hour is indefensible.

This isn't the thread for this sort of discussion, but it is a discussion that will go on, particularly when even the rabid capitalists begin to understand that a capitalist society cannot survive if the populace has no money to buy. The alternative -- one which we appear to be working toward -- is a feudal society, one in which the ruling class provides "defense" and the working class supplies goods and services. The poor assume the role they've always assumed.

Then it should come as no surprise that the UK voted Brexit.

When govt, banks, big corporations and regulation (barriers to entry) are all aligned to conspire against the masses, then a powder keg is created just waiting for ignition. All of this would have continued had it not been for the controlled revolution seen in the UK and subsequently the US. This trend will of course continue elsewhere.

Everyone has different ideas about how to move forward but the important point is that almost everyone agrees that there is a need for change.

May has indicated that govt will change for the benefit of all people, (time will tell) but that is only One facet. There needs to be a sea change in direction of travel, otherwise this quiet revolution might turn into something altogether less desirable.

Another example of the masses firing warning shots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38628530

 

[mike.]

Good read.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...t-hello-equivalence-brexit-banks-lower-sights

Goodbye Passport, Hello Equivalence? Brexit Banks Lower Sights

definitely a good read....seems to give more of a " glass half full " picture the more you read....

 

[dbphoenix]

Then it should come as no surprise that the UK voted Brexit.

When govt, banks, big corporations and regulation (barriers to entry) are all aligned to conspire against the masses, then a powder keg is created just waiting for ignition. All of this would have continued had it not been for the controlled revolution seen in the UK and subsequently the US. This trend will of course continue elsewhere.

Everyone has different ideas about how to move forward but the important point is that almost everyone agrees that there is a need for change.

May has indicated that govt will change for the benefit of all people, (time will tell) but that is only One facet. There needs to be a sea change in direction of travel, otherwise this quiet revolution might turn into something altogether less desirable.

Another example of the masses firing warning shots.

Sounds not unlike Robespierre's line of patter. And that did not end well.

 

[counter_violent]

Sounds not unlike Robespierre's line of patter. And that did not end well.

Hopefully we have moved on from the guillotine

 

[dbphoenix]

Hopefully we have moved on from the guillotine

It wasn't so much the guillotine as what came after, i.e., what now? Same thing with Cromwell. Or more recently, the Bolsheviks.

The dog catches the car. Then what?

 

[forker]

Trump wants to tax EU 35% for car imports. Trump wants them to build them in the USA

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/...eutsche-autobauer-49798296.bild.html#fromWall

 

[gotu]

Then it should come as no surprise that the UK voted Brexit.

When govt, banks, big corporations and regulation (barriers to entry) are all aligned to conspire against the masses, then a powder keg is created just waiting for ignition. All of this would have continued had it not been for the controlled revolution seen in the UK and subsequently the US. This trend will of course continue elsewhere.

Everyone has different ideas about how to move forward but the important point is that almost everyone agrees that there is a need for change.

May has indicated that govt will change for the benefit of all people, (time will tell) but that is only One facet. There needs to be a sea change in direction of travel, otherwise this quiet revolution might turn into something altogether less desirable.

Another example of the masses firing warning shots.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38628530

Theresa's claims about working to better the life of all Brits might bring hope to some, however those on the remain side of the fence made the same sort of allegations. So how does one make up his mind about who it is that is really willing to fight most ardently for the acclaimed British philosophical maxim The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number?

If Bentham and Mill where still around, I guess they would urge us to look at the facts. In the UK, university fees have tripled, student loans are being handed over to private lenders, the corporate tax rate has been slashed, healthcare spending remains stubbornly low compared with its EU peers, capital gains tax have been cut.. These are just some of the measures that I'm aware of resulting in a further widening of the wealth gap in the UK, I'm sure you guys can come up with others, maybe even prove me wrong ( I haven't lived in England for 2 years now after completing my studies)

My point is, that all these measures haven't been for the benefit of most Brits, on the contrary they have just served the interest of the wealthy elite. Furthermore, the Conservatives didn't implement these policies following the instructions of some Evil Mustache Twirling Globalist in Brussels, they were following their own agenda.

Unfortunately facts don't seem to enter into todays political arena and I don't know whether they ever will. The marketing industry has shown us for almost a century, that in order to influence group behavior, one must appeal to the emotions, and I think the Brexit and Trump campaigns were good examples of this.

 

[forker]

In the UK, university fees have tripled, student loans are being handed over to private lenders, the corporate tax rate has been slashed, healthcare spending remains stubbornly low compared with its EU peers, capital gains tax have been cut.. These are just some of the measures that I'm aware of resulting in a further widening of the wealth gap in the UK

Student fees and healthcare have no affect on widening the wealth gap and neither does capital gains. The wealth gap widens from high net worth individuals operating in tax havens or working their financial affairs in a tax efficient way (often none or little tax paid). The main drivers of the gap is debt and wage growth.

 

[gotu]

I think you are probably right, however they are hugely important factors in building a fair society that maximizes well being. My point is that the facts suggest that the conservatives haven't acted according to this maxim and I see no reason to believe they will be changing course after Brexit.

 

[forker]

I think you are probably right, however they are hugely important factors in building a fair society that maximizes well being. My point is that the facts suggest that the conservatives haven't acted according to this maxim and I see no reason to believe they will be changing course after Brexit.

The conservatives inherited 90% debt to gdp. If you or I were to try run our day-to-day lives on that ratio we would be bankrupt. In other words their options are limited and they can't afford to spend more

 

[Atilla]

When considering the ebb and flows of money in the system one should always consider upstream and downstream consequences.

Debt -> enables univserity student to get an education -> facilitating higher reward job -> enabling a rewarding career with wage growth.

Labour shelf life -> can be shortened by injuries and sickness -> if not treated leading to loss of value in factor of input and potential income and output of that commodity. Some level of free health system makes society happier and more productive.


Think of Labour as your slave, how well you feed and look after it will determine how productive it is for you.

 

[gotu]

The conservatives inherited 90% debt to gdp. If you or I were to try run our day-to-day lives on that ratio we would be bankrupt. In other words their options are limited and they can't afford to spend more

If you want to be in the business of maximizing well being, look at those who do so profiiciently, and a lot of them are in the EU. But the most recent actions of the conservatives show that they were never even remotely interested in this endevour, which is why Mays comments sound disingenuous to say the least.

 

[forker]

If you want to be in the business of maximizing well being, look at those who do so profiiciently, and a lot of them are in the EU. But the most recent actions of the conservatives show that they were never even remotely interested in this endevour, which is why Mays comments sound disingenuous to say the least.

Unfortunately capitalism doesn't work this way. The countries that have some of this in the eu tax their citizens enormously to pay for the services.

 

[gotu]

Unfortunately capitalism doesn't work this way. The countries that have some of this in the eu tax their citizens enormously to pay for the services.

Yes they do, and it seems to be working just fine for them. Also their population doesnt seem to have that much of an issue with paying those high taxes, I guess because they experience directly the benefits.

I have a theory that there are also a number of underlying values that differ in most of Europe from those prevalent in the UK and in the US. It seems to me that In Europe, there is this idea that whatever you achieve is simply a product of your circumstances, hence there is a willingness to contribute to the improvement of the circumstances of others. In the US and maybe to a lesser degree but I still think it prevails in the UK, what you achieve is a product of your greatness, so there is a greater sense of entitlement, people are less willing to contribute to the well being of.others and they overtly demonize those on wellfare as stupid lazy creatures that don't even deserve the council flat they live on.

I take interest in this because,.as a Colombian, we have a very long way to go, however, at some point we will also have to pick a street.

 

[Splitlink]

Unfortunately capitalism doesn't work this way. The countries that have some of this in the eu tax their citizens enormously to pay for the services.

But they do not spend that enormous amount of tax (I don't know if it is enormous, or not) on arms. Tax money is well spent, or badly spent, It depends on the point of view.. That is why we live here and you live there.

 

[dbphoenix]

At some point, and this point is often arrived at quickly, one begins arguing from a conceptual framework. This is particularly true when one gets into "isms".

At bottom, one must address the purpose of societies. One purpose is to provide services. Even the most "primitive" societies provided services, if only defense and the shared spoils of hunting and gathering. In modern societies, these services must be paid for, i.e., money is required. This money comes from revenues. The poor, by definition, don't have it. And if wealth flows continuously upward, the middle class doesn't have it either. Therefore not only does the middle class reach a limit as to what they can pay (see Sheriff of Nottingham), but their low incomes inhibit demand, and without demand, modern society has a problem. The money has to come from somewhere, and if it isn't coming from the poor or the working class, from where is it to come? And if it doesn't come, and the services are therefore not provided, what is the purpose of the society? Why not rather abandon it? This is in fact what is facing a number of societies globally.

It is in the best interests of the wealthy to see that wages are as high as are consistent with the goals of the society in which these classes interact. Otherwise, when the well eventually runs dry, the wealthy will find themselves high and dry and alone, or facing a mob.

 

[forker]

But they do not spend that enormous amount of tax (I don't know if it is enormous, or not) on arms. Tax money is well spent, or badly spent, It depends on the point of view.. That is why we live here and you live there.

All this time i thought you chose to move because you wanted a cupboard full of budgie smugglers

 

[dbphoenix]

The World’s 8 Richest Men Are Now as Wealthy as Half the World’s Population