Brexit and the Consequences

[counter_violent]

I would have thought that our political chaos would make any leader abandon even the most idle thought about following us out of the door.

The EU must be delighted to see it and far from Brexit presaging a breakdown of “the project” it’s probably strengenthed it immeasurably.

As Julia implies, we are just getting started.

If the EU and our own useless MP's have any sense, they will cut their losses and get us straight out.

I dread to think where all this is going to end up if the establishment continues obfuscating and denying democracy.

 

[0007]

 

[counter_violent]

Yeah I watched that last night.

It's been clear since the fallout from the referendum and Cameron's departure that the establishment went straight into action. May shoehorned into the job, making all the right noises to the public, but obviously following a EU/UK remain engineered agenda behind the scenes. There have been too many instances now where people were told one thing but the ongoing reality was something quite different. Each time you put the pieces together, it all leads back to remainer May, the EU, biased MSM and the establishment.

There's no way this withdrawal agreement gets through though. There are thankfully just enough principled politicians left to ensure it goes down, regardless of the consequences.

Realists like me have always understood that this is a long game and we are quite prepared to do the full 12 rounds.

 

[counter_violent]

Dig in chaps. Just One more vote against today kills it off for good.

https://www.westmonster.com/brexiteer-mps-set-to-kill-off-mays-deal-in-third-vote/

 

[counter_violent]

And who can argue with this!

https://www.westmonster.com/varoufakis-mays-deal-is-a-surrender-document/

 

[Signalcalc]

I searched my local Tory MP’s information to see how he was aligned, he’s a remainer. I then dug a little deeper into the official pages to see how he was voting on the various motions, his votes were all over the place. From the middle of Feb to the middle of March there were at least 22 votes he had to make, plus amendments. Every day he had to attend parliament to make these, for each vote there is a very lengthy, wordy document full of legal gobblespeak, it’s no wonder these MPs can’t get anything done in or outside of Brexit, never mind live anything like a normal life. Whilst I have little sympathy for the current crop of MPs, the Brexit workload is designed to grind them down, so it’s not surprising to hear that cabinet ministers are feeling the same, I have some empathy.

The establishment is not only working against the referendum result but is also working against the MPs themselves as they are the only ones that have the power to enact change. The vast army of remain establishment civil servants have been mobilised and know exactly what they are doing to get Brexit overturned, it’s going to be log jammed for a very long time.

Even if we had a change of regime by a GE it would take years to replace the civil service.

But years we have, Brexiteers must find a way to grind the civil service down, at the moment they are winning, it is going to need lots of public support to do this, at the moment I don’t think people realise this, it is never presented by MSM, so how are people going to get this message?

 

[counter_violent]

I searched my local Tories MP’s information to see how he was aligned, he’s a remainer. I then dug a little deeper into the official pages to see how he was voting on the various motions, his votes were all over the place. From the middle of Feb to the middle of March there were at least 22 votes he had to make, plus amendments. Every day he had to attend parliament to make these, for each vote there is a very lengthy, wordy document full of legal gobblespeak, it’s no wonder these MPs can’t get anything done in or outside of Brexit, never mind live anything like a normal life. Whilst I have little sympathy for the current crop of MPs, the Brexit workload is designed to grind them down, so it’s not surprising to hear that cabinet ministers are feeling the same, I have some empathy.

The establishment is not only working against the referendum result but is also working against the MPs themselves as they are the only ones that have the power to enact change. The vast army of remain establishment civil servants have been mobilised and know exactly what they are doing to get Brexit overturned, it’s going to be log jammed for a very long time.

Even if we had a change of regime by a GE it would take years to replace the civil service.

But years we have, Brexiteers must find a way to grind the civil service down, at the moment they are winning, it is going to need lots of public support to do this, at the moment I don’t think people realise this, it is never presented by MSM, so how are people going to get this message?

As usual, you have it bang on.

A few things spring to mind.

1 The Brexit voters/general public need an easily accessible, navigable, configurable data base that shows how MP's are voting. This would help them to make informed voting decisions and would also help the local offices in their re-selection / deselection processes.

2 The use of petitions to get the message across to politicians via their committee rooms in the HOC.
A good One right now would be something along the lines of.........
Parliament to relocate to the North effecting a real terms redistribution of power and decision making away from the metropolitan elites based in London.
It will never happen of course, but it sends a message and gives them another kicking, which makes us all feel better.

 

[barjon]

I searched my local Tory MP’s information to see how he was aligned, he’s a remainer. I then dug a little deeper into the official pages to see how he was voting on the various motions, his votes were all over the place. From the middle of Feb to the middle of March there were at least 22 votes he had to make, plus amendments. Every day he had to attend parliament to make these, for each vote there is a very lengthy, wordy document full of legal gobblespeak, it’s no wonder these MPs can’t get anything done in or outside of Brexit, never mind live anything like a normal life. Whilst I have little sympathy for the current crop of MPs, the Brexit workload is designed to grind them down, so it’s not surprising to hear that cabinet ministers are feeling the same, I have some empathy.

The establishment is not only working against the referendum result but is also working against the MPs themselves as they are the only ones that have the power to enact change. The vast army of remain establishment civil servants have been mobilised and know exactly what they are doing to get Brexit overturned, it’s going to be log jammed for a very long time.

Even if we had a change of regime by a GE it would take years to replace the civil service.

But years we have, Brexiteers must find a way to grind the civil service down, at the moment they are winning, it is going to need lots of public support to do this, at the moment I don’t think people realise this, it is never presented by MSM, so how are people going to get this message?

Oh dear,, it’s those unelected bureaucrats of the civil service that are to blame now is it- jeez. No better than the EU then

 

[barjon]

You lot sound like traders who blame their brokers for their own failings. Maybe you should stop looking for a remainer conspiracy around every corner and start considering whether your “easy way forward” ideas have turned out not to be so easy or viable as you thought.

 

[0007]

Agree with #9761-66. I believe there may be a yet-unrealised potential benefit from all the shenanigans, deceit, duplicity and obfuscation from the politicians, civil service and MSM over the last couple of years: namely, they've now been rumbled by ordinary voters. Remember, many many people voted in the referendum who never voted before and thus have a new interest now that they realise their voting intentions (which the government spent £9 million leafleting everybody saying that the decision would be honoured and was a one-time irrevocable choice) have been ridden over roughshod.

Very few people will now trust the existing setup which will leave the door wide open to new parties, new people and new directions. So forget the vote tonight – it's just window dressing and look forward to some as yet unknown political force which will represent the people. The Conservative party (which now has a lot to answer for) never understood the motivation of leave voters – they just put it down to the anti-immigration vote: big mistake – many leavers were already dissatisfied with the direction of politics. The Brexiteers wanted change and now helpfully but unintentionally, the Establishment has extended that desire to an awful lot more people. As Signalcalc has already remarked, we are playing a long game here but make no mistake the electoral tectonic plates are shifting. Look for the first visible signs in the coming local elections. After that, I hope it will be possible to participate in the EU elections making it very clear to all and sundry deniers of democracy that their game is up.

 

[counter_violent]

Oh dear,, it’s those unelected bureaucrats of the civil service that are to blame now is it- jeez. No better than the EU then

Establishment collusion....I think you've nailed it.

 

[0007]

Oh dear,, it’s those unelected bureaucrats of the civil service that are to blame now is it- jeez. No better than the EU then

They were complicit weren't they? (And we're talking about Sir Humphrey here, not the everyday workers trying to earn their daily crust).

 

[counter_violent]

You lot sound like traders who blame their brokers for their own failings. Maybe you should stop looking for a remainer conspiracy around every corner and start considering whether your “easy way forward” ideas have turned out not to be so easy or viable as you thought.

Us lot.

It should have been easy, but we fully understood what we were up against. So if it takes longer, so be it, but we are not going away.

 

[barjon]

Agree with #9761-66. I believe there may be a yet-unrealised potential benefit from all the shenanigans, deceit, duplicity and obfuscation from the politicians, civil service and MSM over the last couple of years: namely, they've now been rumbled by ordinary voters. Remember, many many people voted in the referendum who never voted before and thus have a new interest now that they realise their voting intentions (which the government spent £9 million leafleting everybody saying that the decision would be honoured and was a one-time irrevocable choice) have been ridden over roughshod.

Very few people will now trust the existing setup which will leave the door wide open to new parties, new people and new directions. So forget the vote tonight – it's just window dressing and look forward to some as yet unknown political force which will represent the people. The Conservative party (which now has a lot to answer for) never understood the motivation of leave voters – they just put it down to the anti-immigration vote: big mistake – many leavers were already dissatisfied with the direction of politics. The Brexiteers wanted change and now helpfully but unintentionally, the Establishment has extended that desire to an awful lot more people. As Signalcalc has already remarked, we are playing a long game here but make no mistake the electoral tectonic plates are shifting. Look for the first visible signs in the coming local elections. After that, I hope it will be possible to participate in the EU elections making it very clear to all and sundry deniers of democracy that their game is up.

Firstly, I don’t subscribe to stitch up - just that the whole getting out process without too much damage is a damn sight more difficult than anyone supposed.

Secondly, we’ve been here before. Militant Labour were “unelectable” - until they re-invented themselves as New Labour. Earlier the Social Democrat split off from Labour was going to create an unstoppable political force - that went well. Etc, etc.

Thirdly, Brexit is a one off issue. Once out of the way there will be no call for remainer/Brexit division in political parties and things will revert to the basic division of socialism/capitalism.

 

[counter_violent]

Firstly, I don’t subscribe to stitch up - just that the whole getting out process without too much damage is a damn sight more difficult than anyone supposed.

Secondly, we’ve been here before. Militant Labour were “unelectable” - until they re-invented themselves as New Labour. Earlier the Social Democrat split off from Labour was going to create an unstoppable political force - that went well. Etc, etc.

Thirdly, Brexit is a one off issue. Once out of the way there will be no call for remainer/Brexit division in political parties and things will revert to the basic division of socialism/capitalism.

This it totally incorrect. Far from Brexit being a One off issue, it has been and currently is central to the way the UK goes forward. Any outside influence over sovereignty, governance and the rule of law is not Brexit and is not in the UK's interests.

 

[barjon]

Us lot.

It should have been easy, but we fully understood what we were up against. So if it takes longer, so be it, but we are not going away.

No, ‘course you won’t. You tut, tut that we must accept the “will of the people” and go away but your lot weren’t so keen to accept the will of the people when they kept electing governments whose policy was EU membership.

In case you’ve forgotten this so-called conspiracy of remainer May government and civil servants is actually trying to get us out. Maybe not on terms you like, but out.

 

[counter_violent]

No, ‘course you won’t. You tut, tut that we must accept the “will of the people” and go away but your lot weren’t so keen to accept the will of the people when they kept electing governments whose policy was EU membership.

In case you’ve forgotten this so-called conspiracy of remainer May government and civil servants is actually trying to get us out. Maybe not on terms you like, but out.

The terms of the "out " deal are unacceptable and the terms are very far from out. Indeed, they are designed to keep us in as you very well know.

And what choice has the voting public ever had in regard to Parties that ever gave a choice on membership or not.
The referendum did give the voting public a meaningful say and it's remainers who don't like the answer given. Well from where i'm stood, that's just tough titty!

 

[barjon]

This it totally incorrect. Far from Brexit being a One off issue, it has been and currently is central to the way the UK goes forward. Any outside influence over sovereignty, governance and the rule of law is not Brexit and is not in the UK's interests.

How the hell is it incorrect? Brexit goes on until the “way forward” is nailed down - then it becomes a non-issue and disappears from everywhere bar the history books.

As an aside, how isolationist do you want to be? If you are going to engage at all with the outside world you must accept outside influence.

 

[counter_violent]

How the hell is it incorrect? Brexit goes on until the “way forward” is nailed down - then it becomes a non-issue and disappears from everywhere bar the history books.

As an aside, how isolationist do you want to be? If you are going to engage at all with the outside world you must accept outside influence.

It doesn't disappear into the history books if the issues are not satisfactorily dealt with.
The terms of the "out " deal are unacceptable and the terms are very far from out. Indeed, they are designed to keep us in as you very well know.

As far away from the protectionist, corrupt EU as possible.

 

[NVP]

As Julia implies, we are just getting started.

If the EU and our own useless MP's have any sense, they will cut their losses and get us straight out.

I dread to think where all this is going to end up if the establishment continues obfuscating and denying democracy.

excellent word CV....one for my collection