Brexit and the Consequences

[Signalcalc]

David Starkey, historical fact.

DAVID STARKEY on how our politicians have launched a coup over Brexit
https://mol.im/a/6818107

 

[Signalcalc]

There may be trouble ahead

https://twitter.com/x/status/1106150901276987392

 

[Atilla]

There may be trouble ahead

https://twitter.com/x/status/1106150901276987392

I agree with that statement and that was announced some time ago that legally we can leave the EU without having to pay a penny, nothing at all.

That's always been the case.

The transition period as it was initially referred to (Supposedly not required by UK and we would only agree to one if EU wanted one - according to Davies at the start of negotiations) is required for sure. Especially, in light of the last two wasted years by Tories and in particular TM's planning team.


Given the incompetence of UK.Gov stock of MPs are the British public really ready to hand governance to these useless self serving privileged few?

 

[barjon]

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I agree with that statement and that was announced some time ago that legally we can leave the EU without having to pay a penny, nothing at all.

That's always been the case.

The transition period as it was initially referred to (Supposedly not required by UK and we would only agree to one if EU wanted one - according to Davies at the start of negotiations) is required for sure. Especially, in light of the last two wasted years by Tories and in particular TM's planning team.


Given the incompetence of UK.Gov stock of MPs are the British public really ready to hand governance to these useless self serving privileged few?

Whatever we might be able to do legally if we walked away without paying so much as a penny piece it would be reneging on obligations which we would be expected to honour. Not doing so would leave our reputation for fair dealing in tatters and who would trust us then?

 

[Atilla]

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Whatever we might be able to do legally if we walked away without paying so much as a penny piece it would be reneging on obligations which we would be expected to honour. Not doing so would leave our reputation for fair dealing in tatters and who would trust us then?

Legal law states we do not have any obligations to the EU. UK looking fool hardy in negotiations not knowing what she wants. I don't see what's trust got to do with it as legally we are in the right. It's simply business negotiations. Beg to differ here.

It is merely payment for working out transition dues whilst the new arrangements worked out. What obligations cost £39bn?

Similar to golf club membership, we make annual payments to the club and once we leave, that's it. £39bn is a lot of money.

I'm still struggling with the £39bn for a withdrawal agreement that doesn't give us any future deal. EU says we must first leave before working out new arrangement. Ok so we leave first and keep our £39bn. I always thought that'll be money establishing some new trading agreement. Not fees to demonstrate intentions to start one.

They are playing hard ball game and given those terms I'd simply leave let the dust settle and then embark on some new arrangement if desirable otherwise WTO rules. Not ideal but better than paying £39bn for nothing.


I'm all for the EU and the deal we have now is the best one we're going to get and I really think Brexiteers, TM and Tories messed up big time. The referendum, the withdrawal agreement and our current predicament beyond any repair at the mo, imo.

Best way forward is to cancel Article 50 let the dust settle and UK to elect new leaders and allow course of events to unfold in whichever outcome transpires.

 

[counter_violent]

Legal law states we do not have any obligations to the EU. UK looking fool hardy in negotiations not knowing what she wants. I don't see what's trust got to do with it as legally we are in the right. It's simply business negotiations. Beg to differ here.

It is merely payment for working out transition dues whilst the new arrangements worked out. What obligations cost £39bn?

Similar to golf club membership, we make annual payments to the club and once we leave, that's it. £39bn is a lot of money.

I'm still struggling with the £39bn for a withdrawal agreement that doesn't give us any future deal. EU says we must first leave before working out new arrangement. Ok so we leave first and keep our £39bn. I always thought that'll be money establishing some new trading agreement. Not fees to demonstrate intentions to start one.

They are playing hard ball game and given those terms I'd simply leave let the dust settle and then embark on some new arrangement if desirable otherwise WTO rules. Not ideal but better than paying £39bn for nothing.


I'm all for the EU and the deal we have now is the best one we're going to get and I really think Brexiteers, TM and Tories messed up big time. The referendum, the withdrawal agreement and our current predicament beyond any repair at the mo, imo.

Best way forward is to cancel Article 50 let the dust settle and UK to elect new leaders and allow course of events to unfold in whichever outcome transpires.

No, the best way to leave is with No Deal. As for the rest of your post, it could have been written by a Brexiteer.

 

[counter_violent]

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Whatever we might be able to do legally if we walked away without paying so much as a penny piece it would be reneging on obligations which we would be expected to honour. Not doing so would leave our reputation for fair dealing in tatters and who would trust us then?

Still not getting it Jon.

This is the people v the politicians and the establishment, and we all know who's going to win. Starkey spells it out cos he knows that history is a much better guide of how this could play out. The games up for the self serving elites, the people are not backing down. Lets see if the politicians have the bottle to escalate the problem! I expect at some point they will concede. Their reputation is already down the pan, they have nowhere to go.

 

[barjon]

Still not getting it Jon.

This is the people v the politicians and the establishment, and we all know who's going to win. Starkey spells it out cos he knows that history is a much better guide of how this could play out. The games up for the self serving elites, the people are not backing down. Lets see if the politicians have the bottle to escalate the problem! I expect at some point they will concede. Their reputation is already down the pan, they have nowhere to go.

Whatever dreams you entertain, cv, the fact always remains that “the people” have no power. We can shout and scream in the streets as much as we like but those who do have the power decide if they are going to listen or not.

Our current politicians do probably have a more ready ear than in the past since they are more fearful of losing their jobs but if they have bottle they would vote what they believe (75% of them believe we should be in the EU) rather than listening to “the people”. There’s a good chance they will cave in to May with her mostly out (just) plan, if they don’t then the most likely scenario is to duck their responsibility and toss it back to us.

 

[counter_violent]

Whatever dreams you entertain, cv, the fact always remains that “the people” have no power. We can shout and scream in the streets as much as we like but those who do have the power decide if they are going to listen or not.

Our current politicians do probably have a more ready ear than in the past since they are more fearful of losing their jobs but if they have bottle they would vote what they believe (75% of them believe we should be in the EU) rather than listening to “the people”. There’s a good chance they will cave in to May with her mostly out (just) plan, if they don’t then the most likely scenario is to duck their responsibility and toss it back to us.

I'm not buying either of those outcomes. It's No Deal all the way, then we can talk trade and the EU will be firmly on the back foot. As this pantomime drags on, the positions are hardening and slowly but surely the public are waking up to the fact that No Deal is much better than a bad deal.

Also, a lot of people are making the mistake of assuming that this deal nonsense is a UK issue, to be determined by our PM.
The divisions are getting wider. The EU, hopefully, will call time and kick us out, thus saving us the bother of watching the continuing political pantomime.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47610439

 

[barjon]

I'm not buying either of those outcomes. It's No Deal all the way, then we can talk trade and the EU will be firmly on the back foot. As this pantomime drags on, the positions are hardening and slowly but surely the public are waking up to the fact that No Deal is much better than a bad deal.

Also, a lot of people are making the mistake of assuming that this deal nonsense is a UK issue, to be determined by our PM.
The divisions are getting wider. The EU, hopefully, will call time and kick us out, thus saving us the bother of watching the continuing political pantomime.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47610439

If we finish up with “no deal” it will have nothing at all to do with the “power of the people” and everything to do with useless politicians who have forgotten that their job is to resolve problems, not create them.

 

[barjon]

And now Bercow has ruled that they can’t vote on May’s deal again. Goes from the ridiculous to the ridiculous, ridiculous.

 

[0007]

And now Bercow has ruled that they can’t vote on May’s deal again. Goes from the ridiculous to the ridiculous, ridiculous.

I don't have a lot of time for Bercow (he appears to ignore Erskine-May when it suits him) but on this occasion I think he's right. May's unchanged rotten BRINO deal has already been voted down twice – what's the point of bringing it back unchanged again? Has Bercow rumbled her plan to wear MPs down by being persistently obstinate? Or has he heard about some bung to the DUP? Perhaps she still thinks she's running the Home Office and all those people in the chamber are really policemen?

 

[Atilla]

No, the best way to leave is with No Deal. As for the rest of your post, it could have been written by a Brexiteer.

. .
In no way do I support Brexit but by the same token no way would I signup to a deal that sees us get shafted by the EU. Sadly, this is what we may end up with as Remainers switch due to EU's hard nosed bargaining. Stuff'm sentiment is one I can relate to. Emotions flood the brain.

Nobody likes yielding to pressure salesman. I don't see why Parliament should succumb to some bad deal because of an artificial imposed red line or time threshold. These are all TM and Tory created constraints. They mean absolute zilch.

Parliament can and should revoke article 50. UK should then hold new party leadership and national elections and the whole Brexit retackled with some sensible balance after parliamentary unity evolves. Hopefully, by then likes of Farage and Boris can be put to rest or given the power to deliver their vision.

There is no other way but misery, division and great loss to the UK.

Leaving EU with a divided country is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Atilla]

I don't have a lot of time for Bercow (he appears to ignore Erskine-May when it suits him) but on this occasion I think he's right. May's unchanged rotten BRINO deal has already been voted down twice – what's the point of bringing it back unchanged again? Has Bercow rumbled her plan to wear MPs down by being persistently obstinate? Or has he heard about some bung to the DUP? Perhaps she still thinks she's running the Home Office and all those people in the chamber are really policemen?

I agree here. If no change in deal why vote 3rd time?

Well done Bercow.

 

[Signalcalc]

Non stop entertainment from this parliament.

 

[0007]

I agree here. If no change in deal why vote 3rd time?

Well done Bercow.

Of course, it could all be a dastardly Remainer conspiracy !

 

[barjon]

I don't have a lot of time for Bercow (he appears to ignore Erskine-May when it suits him) but on this occasion I think he's right. May's unchanged rotten BRINO deal has already been voted down twice – what's the point of bringing it back unchanged again? Has Bercow rumbled her plan to wear MPs down by being persistently obstinate? Or has he heard about some bung to the DUP? Perhaps she still thinks she's running the Home Office and all those people in the chamber are really policemen?

N

Yeah, I suppose you’re right. Looks like we’ll have to vote on the damn thing - they’ve closed all the other doors to sort it themselves..

 

[timsk]

Yeah, I suppose you’re right. Looks like we’ll have to vote on the damn thing - they’ve closed all the other doors to sort it themselves..

I think that's the plan, Jon.
So, May's deal will come back to the house with the substantial change being that us plebs get to vote on it if it's passed. Bercow will allow it on that basis, I think. So, it'll be a straight choice between May's lousy BRINO deal or remaining; there will not be a 'no-deal' option. No point wasting money holding another referendum on that basis. Waste of time; even Mrs May herself will vote remain rather than for her own deal! So, remainers 'win' - for now. However, I think both main parties are going to feel the pinch at the next general election and the way will be paved for either UKIP and/or Farage's Brexit Party to get elected and do what the Tories have failed so lamentably to do.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

I think that's the plan, Jon.
So, May's deal will come back to the house with the substantial change being that us plebs get to vote on it if it's passed. Bercow will allow it on that basis, I think. So, it'll be a straight choice between May's lousy BRINO deal or remaining; there will not be a 'no-deal' option. No point wasting money holding another referendum on that basis. Waste of time; even Mrs May herself will vote remain rather than for her own deal! So, remainers 'win' - for now. However, I think both main parties are going to feel the pinch at the next general election and the way will be paved for either UKIP and/or Farage's Brexit Party to get elected and do what the Tories have failed so lamentably to do.
Tim.

I’m not sure they have the wit to have engineered such an outcome - more likely to be the “unintended consequences” of obdurate incompetence.

If they (we) don’t settle this it’s difficult to see where politics goes from here.

 

[counter_violent]

I’m not sure they have the wit to have engineered such an outcome - more likely to be the “unintended consequences” of obdurate incompetence.

If they (we) don’t settle this it’s difficult to see where politics goes from here.

It has not gone unnoticed that your last few post on the thread are a complete 180 degree turn of your views on politicians.
I'm glad we agree that they are all utterly useless. Hence my view that the power does indeed lie with the people.
Some food for thought here and woe betide that useless bunch of political pygmies if they think it's possible to shut us down. We aren't going away and my view is that we will escalate the situation until such time as we achieve the right outcome.

https://www.westmonster.com/more-br...ork-out-than-support-brexit-delay-poll-finds/