Brexit and the Consequences

[barjon]

Well, would you clever fellows like to come up with the “easy answer” then? Sink them mid-channel and leave them to drown, or something? Any really hard line kicks against the credo of a civilised and compassionate nation - which we are I hope.

 

[Atilla]

Hi Atilla,

I think we agree: Macron is indeed leading the EU 'onto the next stage' - of decline.



You appear to be a rather confused here. I'm in favour of nations retaining their respective identities so that their people can relate to their native countries and have a sense of who they are (in a cultural context) and what it means to be English (in my case), French or German etc. That means that if they choose to (they don't have to), the Scots can wear tartan kilts and the French can wear striped shirts and berets etc. Silly examples I know, but they illustrate how people can express who they are and what they are by simple means. Or not if they don't want to. Alternatively, they can join a choir and sing traditional songs or do a strange tribal dance at the start of a rugby match etc., etc. It's the exact opposite of everyone "looking and acting like everyone else is dull and boring. Dress the same. Talk the same. Eat the same. Same ol yawn yawn yawn". What you say you're against I'm against - that's my point. But it's precisely what the EU wants.


Personally, I'm not particularly concerned with my own (national) identity: I just don't want it supplanted by the EU so that I'm made to feel European first and foremost and English as a dim and distant second. I suspect all Brexiteers will agree with this - along with many remainers. Would the French agree with me? I'll happily wager my house that they would. So, laugh, snigger and dismiss my argument as 'tosh' by all means, but I suspect you're in a minority on this issue and, as I said just a few posts ago, that's hardly a counter argument!


You appear to be confusing national identity with free will and personal choice. They are chalk and cheese. And I'm certainly not dictating what national identity is or ought to be - that would be ridiculous. It is what it is and it's arrived at over many decades and centuries. It's to do with having a sense of what it means to be English. Prior to the referendum, one aspect of national identity I liked and related to was a sense of fair play and being polite; something that used to be regarded as a national characteristic. As you suggest, on this front at least, it appears I may be deluded.


Please don't tell me how I think and feel. For the record, I'm proud of some British achievements and embarrassed by others. The Crusades and missionaries definitely fall into the latter category.


Aha, finally, you're starting to talk some sense! ;-)


Well, I agree with you that people are sooo mixed up. Based on this post of yours Atilla, it appears to me that you're more mixed up than most.
Tim.

Good post Tim but I'm not sure other Brexiteers you align your self with apply half as much thought or reason for their actions as you do.

Starting with the demise of the EU, I'm afraid is wishful assertions not born out by evidence. Come next March April the news will get considerably worse and I'm sure most Brexiteers will be hopping with joy or madness. Time will tell.

I am not confused with identity at all. OR national identity and free will as you suggest. Perhaps I'm missing your point. What does losing national identity mean? People are what they are. Language perhaps represents a main aspect of national identity and country one grows up in. English likely to become de facto global language soon enough. Give it another 100-200 years I'd say. Does that mean other smaller countries will lose their identity? French are touchy about their language. If they stop speaking French and start speaking English will they become English? Will the English look at a Frenchman speaking English and say his not really French or English? What is he or what will he become?

As before I find this talk of having to defend one's identity weak and feeble imo.

I fail to understand how the EU can make you feel more European and less British. People are whatever they choose or feel to be. You identify with whatever you are or want to be.

 

[counter_violent]

Well, would you clever fellows like to come up with the “easy answer” then? Sink them mid-channel and leave them to drown, or something? Any really hard line kicks against the credo of a civilised and compassionate nation - which we are I hope.

By all means pick them up before they land and return them straight back to France. Confiscate their vessels and sell them on.
Any shortfall in the cost of operations should be deducted from membership contributions until we leave.

The French could be doing more of course, like monitoring their external border, but as we all know, they have no interest in policing it. Why deal with the problem yourself when you can simply ignore it, then it becomes someone else's problem.

 

[Atilla]

You do realise that these rape gangs have been to court and have been convicted of various offences including child rape, or did you somehow miss this news?

We have not singled out this group, far from it, we also attacked political correctness, which is just a front that suits the Govt to hide behind to promote their race relations agenda, which is in direct opposition to the majority of right thinking citizens of the UK.

We have also attacked the establishment who are as guilty as the perpetrators, like one Jimmy Saville and the rest of his pedophile colleagues at the bent BBC, a good number of them also convicted.

So it would be quite helpful if you quit trying to misrepresent what we have said in order to further your own agenda, whatever that might be.

No you have not.

It was I and others who pointed out to you the abuse of children in the hands of the Catholic church, protective institutions, the BBC and government politicians. Those bodies have abused children far longer and in greater number but your persistence in highlighting one pocket of vile sick bastards grooming children does have an agenda which has FA to do with EU or Brexit. Perhaps more recently online abuse of children you seem to neglect as well. Problem is not confined to or limited this one area you really love to focus on!

They have been convicted and investigated as they all should be.

However, your obsession relates to people of Commonwealth member state and not EU. So why you insist on bringing it up on this Brexit thread speaks volumes, does it not?

 

[counter_violent]

No you have not.

It was I and others who pointed out to you the abuse of children in the hands of the Catholic church, protective institutions, the BBC and government politicians. Those bodies have abused children far longer and in greater number but your persistence in highlighting one pocket of vile sick bastards grooming children does have an agenda which has FA to do with EU or Brexit. Perhaps more recently online abuse of children you seem to neglect as well. Problem is not confined to or limited this one area you really love to focus on!

They have been convicted and investigated as they all should be.

However, your obsession relates to people of Commonwealth member state and not EU. So why you insist on bringing it up on this Brexit thread speaks volumes, does it not?

Well, I really can't be bothered trawling back through my posts from yrs past, but I can assure you that i've been banging on about these issues for years.

 

[Atilla]

By all means pick them up before they land and return them straight back to France. Confiscate their vessels and sell them on.
Any shortfall in the cost of operations should be deducted from membership contributions until we leave.

The French could be doing more of course, like monitoring their external border, but as we all know, they have no interest in policing it. Why deal with the problem yourself when you can simply ignore it, then it becomes someone else's problem.

Agreed.

UK government can do much more by employing more custom and border control officers to gain better control of her borders.

Pushing back on others to carry out and conduct such operations is weak response imo.

Alternatively, UK can set up centres in Jordan, Greece and Turkey to do their part in helping refugees.

If we pick them up, we then deport them to one of these safe centres until they are able to go back home.


Blaming French or other nations and washing our hands of the sh!t and mayhem we create stirring wars is also wrong.

 

[barjon]

By all means pick them up before they land and return them straight back to France. Confiscate their vessels and sell them on.
Any shortfall in the cost of operations should be deducted from membership contributions until we leave.

The French could be doing more of course, like monitoring their external border, but as we all know, they have no interest in policing it. Why deal with the problem yourself when you can simply ignore it, then it becomes someone else's problem.

And just why should the French do more? We’re all part of the EU (for now ) and it’s like expecting England to monitor migration into Wales or Scotland. Or Hampshire being responsible for stopping migration to the IoW.

 

[counter_violent]

Agreed.

UK government can do much more by employing more custom and border control officers to gain better control of her borders.

Pushing back on others to carry out and conduct such operations is weak response imo.

Alternatively, UK can set up centres in Jordan, Greece and Turkey to do their part in helping refugees.

If we pick them up, we then deport them to one of these safe centres until they are able to go back home.


Blaming French or other nations and washing our hands of the sh!t and mayhem we create stirring wars is also wrong.

What are the EU rules regarding migrants?

 

[timsk]

Well, would you clever fellows like to come up with the “easy answer” then? Sink them mid-channel and leave them to drown, or something? Any really hard line kicks against the credo of a civilised and compassionate nation - which we are I hope.

Aye Jon - it's part of our national identity! I know this isn't unique to us Brits - but it's certainly a quality one associates with us. I may be wrong, but I think I'm right in saying that as a nation we're very philanthropically minded - giving more per capita to charitable causes than most other nations.

To save me the trouble - not least because I've tried (quite hard) and failed, perhaps you could explain this to Atilla in language he understands? Thanks!
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

And just why should the French do more? We’re all part of the EU (for now ) and it’s like expecting England to monitor migration into Wales or Scotland. Or Hampshire being responsible for stopping migration to the IoW.

What are the EU rules regarding migrants?

 

[counter_violent]

Here's one for Att to ponder.

 

[Atilla]

Here's one for Att to ponder.

I'm surprised at your choice dear CV, what with you being a Tory member.

What is the difference between this chap and Corbyn? Not much, he expects the EU to continue bailing out all failing and fraudulent member states.

He suggest Euro will fail when Germany bails out? Really?

As before Greece, Italy and the UK can leave. No one from the EU is trying to stop or even interfering in Brexit. They don't need to interfere. They are not suggesting UK have another referendum. It is all internal politics and rudderless parliament and businesses in shock with uncertainty. UK doing a shambolic job of preparing for departure. If parliament unable to make a decision, then new elections or referendum ultimate outcome.


He goes on to bleat about Euro benefiting Germany and no one else??? Then goes on about convergence, which is an objective if only national politicians don't cook the books and comply with rules and regulations.


His government messes up with a capital F, and then he stands up taking shots at everyone else but his own party or politicians on how they dealt with it all.


Not much different to our politicians blaming the EU for UK's shortcomings. Each to their own.


You'll be supporting Corbyn next coz he too wants a real Brexit aligning UK with uncle Putin!

 

[Signalcalc]

Well, would you clever fellows like to come up with the “easy answer” then? Sink them mid-channel and leave them to drown, or something? Any really hard line kicks against the credo of a civilised and compassionate nation - which we are I hope.

I don't think I was clear enough with the point I was trying to make. Assuming the quote is true, for the Home Office Minister, responsible for the border security of the UK, with all the resources under his command in the many and varied intelligence, defence, security services and all of the academic and civil service brains available to him on a national and global scale does not have some ready solutions to such a predictable problem, a problem that has existed for literally years. Then I'm afraid he is not worthy of heading such a department and must make way for someone who is capable.

On this I agree with comrade Corbyn, the govt is either in disarray; or can only purposely be avoiding the issue of dealing with the problem. If they weren't all so embedded with Common Purpose, globalist thinking, we may have a half decent functioning govt who is capable of protecting our borders and UK citizens, unfortunately this looks like a contrived shambles, purposely designed to cause disruption.

It is not for us to solution it, it is for the people we pay our bloody taxes for, we may have good ideas about how to tackle the problem, we unfortunately have no power with which to implement them.

 

[barjon]

I don't think I was clear enough with the point I was trying to make. Assuming the quote is true, for the Home Office Minister, responsible for the border security of the UK, with all the resources under his command in the many and varied intelligence, defence, security services and all of the academic and civil service brains available to him on a national and global scale does not have some ready solutions to such a predictable problem, a problem that has existed for literally years. Then I'm afraid he is not worthy of heading such a department and must make way for someone who is capable.

On this I agree with comrade Corbyn, the govt is either in disarray; or can only purposely be avoiding the issue of dealing with the problem. If they weren't all so embedded with Common Purpose, globalist thinking, we may have a half decent functioning govt who is capable of protecting our borders and UK citizens, unfortunately this looks like a contrived shambles, purposely designed to cause disruption.

It is not for us to solution it, it is for the people we pay our bloody taxes for, we may have good ideas about how to tackle the problem, we unfortunately have no power with which to implement them.

Fair enough. Nonetheless I think it is fairly accurate to say there is “no easy answer” since we are dealing with desperate people who are never going to stop trying to get here despite the risks involved. As I said before we are a civilised and compassionate nation who will, quite rightly, fight shy of “brutal” solutions and I’m proud that we are.

 

[Signalcalc]

Fair enough. Nonetheless I think it is fairly accurate to say there is “no easy answer” since we are dealing with desperate people who are never going to stop trying to get here despite the risks involved. As I said before we are a civilised and compassionate nation who will, quite rightly, fight shy of “brutal” solutions and I’m proud that we are.

Nobody has said that people crossing the channel illegally are not in need of compassion. But if these are genuine refugees, why aren’t they following the appropriate internationally recognised rules and processes already established for claiming asylum?

Who’s to say these aren’t Jihadis? It’s only going to take a single murderous incident for this to go completely in a direction that no one appears to be anticipating.

Just as it has already on the continent.

 

[counter_violent]

Fair enough. Nonetheless I think it is fairly accurate to say there is “no easy answer” since we are dealing with desperate people who are never going to stop trying to get here despite the risks involved. As I said before we are a civilised and compassionate nation who will, quite rightly, fight shy of “brutal” solutions and I’m proud that we are.

People traffickers are on the same level as drug dealers and kiddy fiddlers, they are all scum. These gangs need infiltrating and taking out by any means necessary. Their whole purpose is to enrich themselves at the expense of the vulnerable causing misery for the victims and untold damage and cost to society as a whole.

 

[Signalcalc]

Fair enough. Nonetheless I think it is fairly accurate to say there is “no easy answer” since we are dealing with desperate people who are never going to stop trying to get here despite the risks involved. As I said before we are a civilised and compassionate nation who will, quite rightly, fight shy of “brutal” solutions and I’m proud that we are.

Do you have any thoughts about how to tackle the problem of criminals crossing the channel and illegally entering the UK?

 

[counter_violent]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46720323

 

[0007]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46720323

It just goes to show what a complete dog's breakfast May and the Conservative party are making of Brexit.

Nevertheless, "Despite Brexit" (as they say at the Ministry of Truth - a.k.a. BBC) - I reckon the following will still happen:

1. The ports will stay open
2. Medicines will still arrive
3. Aircraft will still fly
4. City will continue to do well
5. Atilla will still try to persuade us that Brexit is the wrong choice

 

[barjon]

Do you have any thoughts about how to tackle the problem of criminals crossing the channel and illegally entering the UK?

No, but then it’s not an easy problem is it