counter_violent
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timsk
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Excellent summary Sig'.
For me, there is one key element that I guess comes under the umbrella of 'disruption to native cultures' that warrants special mention: loss of national identity. I realise this is something of a taboo subject because it has the potential to lead to that ugly face of national pride - jingoism. However, it's very important - as it's something I believe most people in most countries and cultures experience. So, for example, it is absolutely right that the Scots are very proud of their heritage and culture and want to preserve it, even though I myself have no desire to wear a tartan skirt and or be anywhere near bagpipes being played! Ditto for the Welsh and their language, choirs and to 'cwtch'. (Cwtch means to bury yourself in another person’s body as a cosying means of protection from the outside world. Much more than a mere hug, it’s a place of safety and sanctuary.)
For the EU to even try to supplant what it means for someone from France to be French, or someone from Italy to be Italian, or someone from Spain to be Spanish etc., etc. by being 'European' - is utter folly and I hope will never happen.The erosion of national identity is not only a bad thing, I believe it's something that most people in most countries will fiercely resist. You have only to watch a sports event like the forthcoming Six Nations Rugby or the footy World Cup earlier this year to see just how important it is for millions of people to have a sense of belonging and, in a cultural context, of knowing who they are and where they come from.
Tim.
barjon
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Absolutely agree, Tim. And you only have to go and watch the Ryder Cup to see how thousands pull together as Europe.
At school, inter-house rivalry was fierce but all came together and cheered for the school when it was school vs school. Similarly, I expect people in your neck of the woods are proud to be Devonians or Cornishmen as well as rooting for Britain.
I dare say we’ll all be proud to be Earthlings round the inter-galactic table
0007
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Spot on! Man is a tribal beast and despite political projects, fanciful social engineering and all the do-gooders it will stay that way. It's one of the reasons why I suspect the EU as we know it now, will ultimately fail.
timsk
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Hi Jon,Absolutely agree, Tim. And you only have to go and watch the Ryder Cup to see how thousands pull together as Europe.
At school, inter-house rivalry was fierce but all came together and cheered for the school when it was school vs school. Similarly, I expect people in your neck of the woods are proud to be Devonians or Cornishmen as well as rooting for Britain.
I dare say we’ll all be proud to be Earthlings round the inter-galactic table
Yes, absolutely agree with all of that. Where I suspect our views may differ is the idea that to be European somehow trumps - and is more important than - being English, French or German etc. If you watch all the videos posted on here, you'll have seen the one about Macron who foolishly chose not to play La Marseillaise at his inauguration ceremony and, instead of the Tricolour, flew the EU flag. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about - and what a big mistake it was. Huge. Massive.
Also, migration helps to dilute national identity - but that's another of those conversations that tends to get shut down pdq amid accusations of racism and xenophobia. To me, it's obvious and common sense that if one nation is flooded with people from another nation, then the cultures, traditions and national identity of the host nation will - over time - become eroded. That's all grist to the mill for the EU as, in their eyes, we can still think of ourselves as 'Europeans' long after we've lost any sense of what it means to be English, French, Italian or whatever.
Tim.
Atilla
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You and SC need to sort out your differences. Are you for Globalisation of business or against.
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum springs to mind. One of you blows his trumpet and another pulls at the violin strings.
SC do you care to explain CV's post about UK in the Global business rankings ????
Atilla
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I think you do care, you just choose to ignore the realities.
No I don't care what ever Globalism means to you or the Brexiteers. I told you my perspective and your response is below.
Globalism like Brexit means what ever the heck it means to people inside of their heads. You included. What does it matter. Brexit means brexit and Globalism means globalism. I asked you for your version and got jack back. How on earth you know what is right and what is wrong is beyond me. As I said to you, go and ask the numpties who both coined those terms.
This explains alot, you bang on about Brexiteers not having a scoobies about globalism and then go onto explain the economies of globalisation, how mixed up you are! I think you should go back to school and learn the differences before trying to tell us what is correct and who is wrong.
I don't claim to 'know', what I attempt to do is identify aspects of globalism that upset large sections of the population as and when they appear in the context of this thread.
Shouldn't you try and find out what it means to you? If you don't know what it is or what it means how do you intend to identify aspects of globalism. What a load of tosh you talk about? Good luck with your attempts
It so happens that the complex and constantly evolving ideologies of both globalism and populism are in opposition to each other. I don't believe that Brexiteers are opposed to globalisation per se, however the implementation of globalisation through the ideology of globalism and corporatism are worrying large sections of populations, especially in the West (Central and South America also appears to be engaged in a populist backlash), giving rise to a wide range of populist thought and changing voting habits to the point of regime change, resulting in for example, the French yellow vest protests which is finding popularity across the EU and beyond.
Dyson: a British inventor pivots to Asia
So what's this all about then? Mr Dyson, champion Brexiteer?
The EU is engaged in implementing policies of globalism and corporatism, the perception of these policies by it's citizens is one that does not benefit them directly and is in fact eroding their standards of living through punitive taxation, uncontrolled migration, lack of border controls, change without consultation, loss of free speech, disruption to native cultures, imposition of new laws to prevent opposition and a feeling that one's government is actively working against them and not for them, to the benefit of large multinationals and the already rich, elite and powerful.
These are the realities, choose to ignore or dismiss at your peril. Continue in your fantasy land economics and continuation of name calling Brexiteers as stupid all you wish, its not gonna get you very far.
I don't say Brexiteers are stupid, just numpties - which means they are fools in the way they are conducting them selves post referendum.
Invoking article 50 before getting Parliament to debate or call a white paper was the first and biggest failure. Everything about the referendum was wrong and you all know it.
1. Why it was called
2. How it was constructed and campaigned for by each party
3. Post referendum actions
Now it's populism and globalism? It is what ever you want it to be. What ever floats your boat
Atilla
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Macaron is playing silly politics. With the decline in Merkel's power base and Germany's influence, he was positioning him self to be the next big chief, showing he can lead EU onto the next stage. He may have miscalculated. France has big ambitions in Europe. With UK out of the way and Germany in transition he has simply made his play.
Once again this identity nonsense is out again and it is beyond me. I am what I am and do I actively think about my self or my children's identity? No. Diversity makes us all richer. Looking and acting like everyone else is dull and boring. Dress the same. Talk the same. Eat the same. Same ol yawn yawn yawn.
I am a globalist, I do what I want, go where I want. Work anywhere in the world if fit for the job and accepted for the role.
Celebrate what I want. It's called freedom. Choice. When people talk about their identity being eroded I laugh and snigger. What a load of tosh.
I find people who are concerned with their identity and who talk about maintaining it as weak and feeble minded. Laughable.
I appreciate I may be saying the wrong things but you know Pakistanis feel the same. One of my teachers told me he slapped his son because he didn't want to wear the traditional Pakistani dress. I thought of him as some stupid fecked up father figure. Insecure bastard. I can't imagine myself slapping my teenage son for choice of dress. I'd slap him if he committed a crime but for choosing not to wear some daft dress is fecked up.
Once a life is brought into this world and they have free will what right do old fockers have about determining the choice of that life?
Why is it that people feel the need to dictate what national identity is supposed to be in their little delusional minds?
Why would parents want to mould and clone their children in their own image? It's in some respects slavery.
How would you guys feel if Jesus Christ is portrayed as a brown Israeli/Arab rather than a white blue eyed man? I have no idea how missionaries have done such a great job selling Christianity to the black man who they enslaved. Bonkers. Religious missionaries go out to the big wide world to change the identity of endogenous people for a greater cause and no eyebrows are raised. In fact you all feel proud of the past - what I can term start of globalism (according to my interpretation). Now a few migrants come in to do the work locals decline to do and some peeps are worried about losing their identity. One hopes some of the low lives might pickup the work ethic identity, if the wind changes direction. We live in hope.
Having said all that I still support the Australian style point system for controlling migration. The people crossing the channel on boats I'd immediately arrest as illegals and send them back. True Syrian refugees are in Jordan, Turkey and Greece. The ones in Europe obviously well endowed with plenty of money and means to travel and exist on long expeditions. They are economic migrants in search of a better life yes but not refugees.
People are sooo mixed up?
What on earth this all has with free movement of people in EU I have no idea. The Brexit debate has been hijacked, distorted, and well twisted.
Brexit now means defending our identity against grey squirrels
counter_violent
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All rather simple really. The UK's business and trade offering can only be enhanced once we leave the EU.
We will of course need to rid ourselves of all those pathetic remoaner MP's who's motives are questionable to say the least.
Signalcalc
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I don't say Brexiteers are stupid, just numpties - which means they are fools in the way they are conducting them selves post referendum.
Invoking article 50 before getting Parliament to debate or call a white paper was the first and biggest failure. Everything about the referendum was wrong and you all know it.
1. Why it was called
2. How it was constructed and campaigned for by each party
3. Post referendum actions
Now it's populism and globalism? It is what ever you want it to be. What ever floats your boat
Here, I have your answer...
Attachments
Signalcalc
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And ironically, you want to be homogenised into the EU
Picking rather extreme examples here aren't we, child abuse and religious historical freakery and then choosing to call them national identity and the beginnings of Globalism respectively, even I couldn't make this up!
Having said all that I still support the Australian style point system for controlling migration. The people crossing the channel on boats I'd immediately arrest as illegals and send them back. True Syrian refugees are in Jordan, Turkey and Greece. The ones in Europe obviously well endowed with plenty of money and means to travel and exist on long expeditions. They are economic migrants in search of a better life yes but not refugees.
People are sooo mixed up?
What on earth this all has with free movement of people in EU I have no idea.
The Brexit debate has been hijacked, distorted, and well twisted.
Brexit now means defending our identity against grey squirrels
explains alot about your lack of understanding with respect to EU migration policies and their implementation.
Atilla
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And ironically, you want to be homogenised into the EU
Picking rather extreme examples here aren't we, child abuse and religious historical freakery and then choosing to call them national identity and the beginnings of Globalism respectively, even I couldn't make this up!
explains alot about your lack of understanding with respect to EU migration policies and their implementation.
Not extreme at all. Just few points to think about. I think picking on child abuse and pointing to simply one group of men is gross abuse. Child abuse has been going on for years and years. If you guys made it a crusade on all abusers I'd agree wholeheartedly but to make brexit capital out of it by enflaming race hate is a little OT blaming it on EU.
EU may change yes and it probably does need to make some changes for sure but you forget that even if the likes of France and Germany wish to have some form of an integrated army, it does not mean UK will have to sign up to it.
Mixing up justification for Brexit. It's based on hypothetical arguments with no basis.
EU has many tiers of membership. Nothing is compulsory unless a country signs up to an agreement.
This is an ideal opportunity for the UK to make her presence felt in the EU. Turning back and leaving is simply weakness and resignation from a major player on the international platform.
Atilla
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Signalcalc
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If you are referring to Pakistani child rape gangs, then I don't see where the Brexit and race hate capital has been made from it, can you provide any examples?
Too late, the UK are already signed into it.
That's worked well then, what level of membership has the EU offered us during the Brexit negotiations?
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Signalcalc
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This is a good study of the relationship of globalisation and the rise in popularism as a result, the globalists of the EU don't appear to be taking much notice though.
Populism and the economics of globalization
https://drodrik.scholar.harvard.edu...pulism_and_the_economics_of_globalization.pdf
Populism and the economics of globalization
https://drodrik.scholar.harvard.edu...pulism_and_the_economics_of_globalization.pdf
counter_violent
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You do realise that these rape gangs have been to court and have been convicted of various offences including child rape, or did you somehow miss this news?
We have not singled out this group, far from it, we also attacked political correctness, which is just a front that suits the Govt to hide behind to promote their race relations agenda, which is in direct opposition to the majority of right thinking citizens of the UK.
We have also attacked the establishment who are as guilty as the perpetrators, like one Jimmy Saville and the rest of his pedophile colleagues at the bent BBC, a good number of them also convicted.
So it would be quite helpful if you quit trying to misrepresent what we have said in order to further your own agenda, whatever that might be.
timsk
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Hi Atilla,
Tim.
I think we agree: Macron is indeed leading the EU 'onto the next stage' - of decline.
You appear to be a rather confused here. I'm in favour of nations retaining their respective identities so that their people can relate to their native countries and have a sense of who they are (in a cultural context) and what it means to be English (in my case), French or German etc. That means that if they choose to (they don't have to), the Scots can wear tartan kilts and the French can wear striped shirts and berets etc. Silly examples I know, but they illustrate how people can express who they are and what they are by simple means. Or not if they don't want to. Alternatively, they can join a choir and sing traditional songs or do a strange tribal dance at the start of a rugby match etc., etc. It's the exact opposite of everyone "looking and acting like everyone else is dull and boring. Dress the same. Talk the same. Eat the same. Same ol yawn yawn yawn". What you say you're against I'm against - that's my point. But it's precisely what the EU wants.
Personally, I'm not particularly concerned with my own (national) identity: I just don't want it supplanted by the EU so that I'm made to feel European first and foremost and English as a dim and distant second. I suspect all Brexiteers will agree with this - along with many remainers. Would the French agree with me? I'll happily wager my house that they would. So, laugh, snigger and dismiss my argument as 'tosh' by all means, but I suspect you're in a minority on this issue and, as I said just a few posts ago, that's hardly a counter argument!
You appear to be confusing national identity with free will and personal choice. They are chalk and cheese. And I'm certainly not dictating what national identity is or ought to be - that would be ridiculous. It is what it is and it's arrived at over many decades and centuries. It's to do with having a sense of what it means to be English. Prior to the referendum, one aspect of national identity I liked and related to was a sense of fair play and being polite; something that used to be regarded as a national characteristic. As you suggest, on this front at least, it appears I may be deluded.
Please don't tell me how I think and feel. For the record, I'm proud of some British achievements and embarrassed by others. The Crusades and missionaries definitely fall into the latter category.
Aha, finally, you're starting to talk some sense! ;-)
Well, I agree with you that people are sooo mixed up. Based on this post of yours Atilla, it appears to me that you're more mixed up than most.People are sooo mixed up?
What on earth this all has with free movement of people in EU I have no idea. The Brexit debate has been hijacked, distorted, and well twisted.
Brexit now means defending our identity against grey squirrels
Tim.
counter_violent
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Now this has the potential to completely derail the Govts plans to force through a deal. Positions could well harden on the leave side as the arguments escalate.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46714553
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46714553
Signalcalc
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Javid states “there is no one easy answer” any Home Secretary that comes out with a statement like that should be replaced immediately.
counter_violent
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Ahha...it just confirms my long held view that we don't have politicians of sufficient caliber to make important decisions as they have never had to do so, coupled with the Peter Principle which states that people get promoted to the level of their incompetence. TM being a classic example.
