Brexit and the Consequences

Hiya Jon,
With regard to the part of your post that I've highlighted - do you not think a 2nd referendum aka 'People's Vote' is looking increasingly likely? If so, can you think of a way of conducting it that is fair to both sides so that the majority (not all, obviously) feel that democracy has been served?

I had this discussion recently with a remainer on YouTube and he said he'd be happy to have a three way split vote (i.e. Remain, Mrs. May's BRINO and No Deal on the ballot paper) and, in order for remain to be declared the winner, they'd have to secure 60% of the total votes cast. Whilst I'm not in favour of having another referendum, if there is to be one nonetheless, those are the kinds of terms I'd regard as fair. Thoughts?
Tim.

I suppose if parliament gets itself in total disarray then they might pass the buck to the people as the only way out of the impasse. That would be an abrogation of responsibility on their part, but might just about be justified on the basis of changed circumstances since the referendum. That argument is a very weak one, though.

So far as the voting is concerned I don’t see why remain should have to secure 60% when 51% was ok the first time round (not that that was particularly sensible for constitutional change - my golf club needs 70% for changes to the constitution). Maybe a transferable vote sort of thing with people casting a second choice which would come into play when the bottom choice (their first choice) was struck out. Then a straight 50% battle between the remaining two options.
 
Hiya Jon,
With regard to the part of your post that I've highlighted - do you not think a 2nd referendum aka 'People's Vote' is looking increasingly likely? If so, can you think of a way of conducting it that is fair to both sides so that the majority (not all, obviously) feel that democracy has been served?

I had this discussion recently with a remainer on YouTube and he said he'd be happy to have a three way split vote (i.e. Remain, Mrs. May's BRINO and No Deal on the ballot paper) and, in order for remain to be declared the winner, they'd have to secure 60% of the total votes cast. Whilst I'm not in favour of having another referendum, if there is to be one nonetheless, those are the kinds of terms I'd regard as fair. Thoughts?
Tim.

The more options given to people, the more fragmented vote will be.

Not fair on the leavers imo. Hazard a guess their vote will be split making it easier for remain to win. However, if you have three options getting a 60% on any one option will also be harder.

I would reckon on a majority vote be better way to proceed with primary and secondary choice out of three - eliminating third place if 50+ is not achieved.


This trust thing in Parliament needs to be dealt with. The people should decide because whilst daft power hungry politicians got us into this mess the people will need to confirm or undo what they have done. Justice even if not done, must seen to take place.

No matter what happens now, MPs voting against the will of the people going to lead to a confidence crisis imo.

For me it has to be elections or referendum. Otherwise this is going to rumble on for goodness knows how long. Politicians will need to campaign on their beliefs and where they stand.

I have no issue with referendum. I don't buy all that Brexit tosh politicians jibe about Europe not listening to people. Europe haven't said a word. Don't buy that punishment beatings crap either. Brexiteers playing the victim card. What a bunch of delicate souls. Hard on the outside and soft on the inside. (n)

There is nothing wrong with a second referendum. People having seen Brexit unfold and discovered more, should be given the vote.

Back in 1975 freaking Europsceptics insisted on a 2nd referendum and indeed we had two back then as well. That's after 11 years of trying to get in, in the first place.


No easy way out. :whistling
 
Hiya Jon,
With regard to the part of your post that I've highlighted - do you not think a 2nd referendum aka 'People's Vote' is looking increasingly likely? If so, can you think of a way of conducting it that is fair to both sides so that the majority (not all, obviously) feel that democracy has been served?

I had this discussion recently with a remainer on YouTube and he said he'd be happy to have a three way split vote (i.e. Remain, Mrs. May's BRINO and No Deal on the ballot paper) and, in order for remain to be declared the winner, they'd have to secure 60% of the total votes cast. Whilst I'm not in favour of having another referendum, if there is to be one nonetheless, those are the kinds of terms I'd regard as fair. Thoughts?
Tim.

I disagree that a second referendum is looking more likey, however if we are to have one how about a straightforward TM BRINO or no deal referendum, majority win, democracy served, straightforward, to the point, get's the job done, forces the EU to re-negotiate with a strong leave government (assuming TM deal thrown out and a new stronger leave govt is installed).

The reason we are in this mess is because of weak TM remain govt, EU has won the lottery and has agreed to everything in record time, they've not had to lift a finger in any negotiation, they can't believe their luck.

It's the only way this is going to work with the Brexiteer crowd :cheesy:
 
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I disagree that a second referendum is looking more likey, however if we are to have one how about a straightforward TM BRINO or no deal referendum, majority win, democracy served, straightforward, to the point, get's the job done, forces the EU to re-negotiate with a strong leave government (assuming TM deal thrown out and a new stronger leave govt is installed).

The reason we are in this mess is because of weak TM remain govt, EU has won the lottery and has agreed to everything in record time, they've not had to lift a finger in any negotiation, they can't believe their luck.

It's the only way this is going to work with the Brexiteer crowd :cheesy:


That doesn't fix the lies and deception heaped on obtaining the vote. (n)

It's like you've made a mistake you'll have to suck it up, Cut your nose off to spite your face.

If the BRINO gets voted down then it means it doesn't fly and we go back to original binary referendum. If Parliament doesn't agree to it pretty much unanimous verdict across both parties then it should be canned.


Let the people choose now they know the true lay of the land and consequences.
 
That doesn't fix the lies and deception heaped on obtaining the vote. (n)

Does it fix the lies and deceit of remain?

It's like you've made a mistake you'll have to suck it up, Cut your nose off to spite your face.

What mistake has been made?

If the BRINO gets voted down then it means it doesn't fly and we go back to original binary referendum.

Why should it mean that?

If Parliament doesn't agree to it pretty much unanimous verdict across both parties then it should be canned.

I agree can the crap TM agreement and let's no deal.
 
Does it fix the lies and deceit of remain?

We haven't left yet. Brexit sh1t will get real if/when we do!


What mistake has been made?

Definitely yes. 2 years wasted on squabling instead of getting on with the business of running the country.

Why should it mean that?



I agree can the crap TM agreement and let's no deal.


I think most half sensible bodies realise TM withdrawal bill is load of b0ll0x to appease illeterates. It is merely a transition agreement.

I also think it is a gross abuse of power offering titles to win votes. Moreover, the person who changes his principals for rank and position is just a tool. Vote for hire. What good can come from a man who's bent and power hungry.


We'll soon be seeing likes Govey and Leadsom and maybe Fox too run for PM roll. The very people who are backing some half baked daft deal as a good deal.

Go back and read past posts to see all the numpties who backed them and thought they were good and right in what they said. Even Farage the wonder boy is consigned to history and UKIP taking on a whole new guise.


And you ask what mistakes have been made :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
UK plans sat-nav system to rival EU's Galileo

Brexit costs and stakes growing bigger.

fwiw UK historically, very good at spending on military, R&D and new ideas but very poor in turning that into world beating leading consumer techno.

I fear it will cost considerably more than the 92m looking into how it can be done.


:rolleyes:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45336001

UK ministers are setting aside £92m to study the feasibility of building a sovereign satellite-navigation system.

The new network would be an alternative to the Europe Union's Galileo project, in which Britain looks set to lose key roles as a result of Brexit.

The UK Space Agency will lead the technical assessment.

Officials will engage British industry to spec a potential design, its engineering requirements, schedule and likely cost.

The first contracts for this study work could be issued as early as October.

The UKSA expects the assessment to take about a year and a half.

Ministers could then decide if they really want to proceed with a venture that will have a price tag in the billions.
 
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With a nephew at university studying rocket science I have always found the lack of scientific collaboration after brexit to be one of the sadder consequences. I don't believe that good science is a one man band.
 
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I always find it interesting to see if a problem has any precedents from the past and Brexit has. Fortunately things are a lot more civilized now than Roman times.
The Romans really hated revolts against their rule and put down nationalist revolts severely. The Jewish and British revolts were particularly savagely put down by force. Successful rebellions were swiftly defeated, participants slaughtered or enslaved and whole villages erased.


The unelected Bruselles lot thankfully haven't got that much power but they will be aware that Britain's successful exit will encourage others. Undoubtably they will make Brexit as hard as possible. Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal will be watching closely.
 
..............

The Romans really hated revolts against their rule and put down nationalist revolts severely. The Jewish and British revolts were particularly savagely put down by force. Successful rebellions were swiftly defeated, participants slaughtered or enslaved and whole villages erased.
...............

You reminded me of the tale of the gallant people of Masada who killed each other when it was obvious that the Romans were on the point of breaking into the fortress. I'm quite taken with the parallel image of the Tories carving each other up in a frenzy of mutual recrimination and anti-EU angst:)
 
UK plans sat-nav system to rival EU's Galileo

Brexit costs and stakes growing bigger.

fwiw UK historically, very good at spending on military, R&D and new ideas but very poor in turning that into world beating leading consumer techno.

I fear it will cost considerably more than the 92m looking into how it can be done.


:rolleyes:

Just think of the £billions we will have spare when we no-deal and pay no money to the EU, starting immediately.
 
:rolleyes:

Just think of the £billions we will have spare when we no-deal and pay no money to the EU, starting immediately.

You are thinking small scale. UK GDP was £2.04 Trillion in 2017. £9bn represents less than 0.5% of GDP. Forecasts for slowdown are considerably more.

However, to go back to Brexiteers argument, this isn't about numbers which are not Brexiteers strong point but more about national identify, taking back control and stopping invasion of country by refugees.

Big juicy contracts like the Galileo project is of no consequence to them or the future potential of changing business dynamics and industry. EU plan is to put 24 satellites up covering the whole World. The idea is to be able to develop a global driverless machine revolution. No point in just having kit that is only functional in Europe is it? Plan ahead. Any machine produced whether it is a car, a tractor or a train will be able to operate anywhere else in the World via AI.

UK is effectively isolating her self from sitting at the table that will set standards, rules and regulations and lucrative contracts that will lead to consumer based products totalling billions if not trillions.

This is just a start. Who ever gets there 1st will undoubtedly have a big advantage over the new machine AI revolution that is taking place.

Instead we have some sh1t head bodies telling us our defence industry should not be able to play with other European partners and that we must have ultimate ability to kick ar5e by our selves anywhere in the world. Ofcourse the hope and glory boys might buy this BS but that is exactly what it is. Hope and feckling Glory about yesteryears utter b0ll0x leading to two world wars, death and destruction. Typically, UK will spend billions on WMD and neglect the far bigger consumer market.

Then there is Airbus, pharmaceuticals, Euro-fighter project, motor industries and of coursem, the Finance industry.

That 9bn is not going to stretch as far as it seems to be in Brexiteers imaginations. They keep throwing it about in debates as if it means jack.

Stupidity of ultra right hard Brexiteers will take this country down a very sh!ty and miserable future.

One would think the potential outcomes should be becoming obvious to most by now. Instead we have Tommy Robinson looking to lead UKIP now that he has some recognition for people to identify with. Nigel Farage who chose to step down from UKIP now thinking of leaving UKIP.

To think Cameron who was afraid of Tories losing power to UKIP and calling a referendum, is now probably head in hands sitting on the toilet seat wondering WTF his delivered to the UK. The unintended consequence of a power mad Etonite. Gloating over screwing the LibDems they are about to screw each other and the UK further still.

Sometimes coalitions can be a good thing. LibDems don't seem to have received much credit for moderating the Tories and sadly being the smaller party caved in to their student fee or graduate tax proposal which back fired. If Tories thought to play fair and prepared to work together - as people crying out for some kind of order, UK politics may have been in a much different place. LibDems and Tories, may have been able to see the challenge from SNP, UKIP and Labour off. That's the problem with fecked up power hungry politicians.

As for TM, who is now clinging to her sh!t withdrawal deal and power, much like shrink wrapped piece of EU dung, trying to tell UK public this is good for you and why they should buy it. That's not leadership. It's a ballsed up POS deal to retain power appeasing bodies to stay in power. One would think the game is up, the country needs either new elections or referendum but no, all consuming personal power is the name of the game.


Very sad predicament we find our selves in. The only good deal is to call it all off and conduct some serious unbiased impact analysis and planning prior to invoking article 50. The way this whole sh!t show has been conducted is just what it is. No other way to dress it up - it is PURE SH!T.
 
You are thinking small scale. UK GDP was £2.04 Trillion in 2017. £9bn represents less than 0.5% of GDP. Forecasts for slowdown are considerably more.

However, to go back to Brexiteers argument, this isn't about numbers which are not Brexiteers strong point but more about national identify, taking back control and stopping invasion of country by refugees.

Big juicy contracts like the Galileo project is of no consequence to them or the future potential of changing business dynamics and industry. EU plan is to put 24 satellites up covering the whole World. The idea is to be able to develop a global driverless machine revolution. No point in just having kit that is only functional in Europe is it? Plan ahead. Any machine produced whether it is a car, a tractor or a train will be able to operate anywhere else in the World via AI.

UK is effectively isolating her self from sitting at the table that will set standards, rules and regulations and lucrative contracts that will lead to consumer based products totalling billions if not trillions.

This is just a start. Who ever gets there 1st will undoubtedly have a big advantage over the new machine AI revolution that is taking place.

Instead we have some sh1t head bodies telling us our defence industry should not be able to play with other European partners and that we must have ultimate ability to kick ar5e by our selves anywhere in the world. Ofcourse the hope and glory boys might buy this BS but that is exactly what it is. Hope and feckling Glory about yesteryears utter b0ll0x leading to two world wars, death and destruction. Typically, UK will spend billions on WMD and neglect the far bigger consumer market.

Then there is Airbus, pharmaceuticals, Euro-fighter project, motor industries and of coursem, the Finance industry.

That 9bn is not going to stretch as far as it seems to be in Brexiteers imaginations. They keep throwing it about in debates as if it means jack.

Stupidity of ultra right hard Brexiteers will take this country down a very sh!ty and miserable future.

One would think the potential outcomes should be becoming obvious to most by now. Instead we have Tommy Robinson looking to lead UKIP now that he has some recognition for people to identify with. Nigel Farage who chose to step down from UKIP now thinking of leaving UKIP.

To think Cameron who was afraid of Tories losing power to UKIP and calling a referendum, is now probably head in hands sitting on the toilet seat wondering WTF his delivered to the UK. The unintended consequence of a power mad Etonite. Gloating over screwing the LibDems they are about to screw each other and the UK further still.

Sometimes coalitions can be a good thing. LibDems don't seem to have received much credit for moderating the Tories and sadly being the smaller party caved in to their student fee or graduate tax proposal which back fired. If Tories thought to play fair and prepared to work together - as people crying out for some kind of order, UK politics may have been in a much different place. LibDems and Tories, may have been able to see the challenge from SNP, UKIP and Labour off. That's the problem with fecked up power hungry politicians.

As for TM, who is now clinging to her sh!t withdrawal deal and power, much like shrink wrapped piece of EU dung, trying to tell UK public this is good for you and why they should buy it. That's not leadership. It's a ballsed up POS deal to retain power appeasing bodies to stay in power. One would think the game is up, the country needs either new elections or referendum but no, all consuming personal power is the name of the game.


Very sad predicament we find our selves in. The only good deal is to call it all off and conduct some serious unbiased impact analysis and planning prior to invoking article 50. The way this whole sh!t show has been conducted is just what it is. No other way to dress it up - it is PURE SH!T.

I agree, we should have had Brexiteers in charge from the beginning, we would already be out and on the road to success.
 
All this bluster about second referendum, do they think they’ll get a different result? If anything the last two years will have hardened the resolve of both sides.
 
Ok so who should have been in charge of Brexit?

Why were they not in that position?

It is Parliament that makes laws, sets policies and actions motions for debate to be passed as bills. Not a simple referendum.

No point talking shoulda woulda coulda done that and the other. You living in some imaginary world!
 
All this bluster about second referendum, do they think they’ll get a different result? If anything the last two years will have hardened the resolve of both sides.

Not at all. Not everyone's on extreme ends. There are reasonable "thinking" people out there.

Elections or Referendum either way driving factor is going to be Brexit.

Worth watching this. Brexit gets a few laughs.
 
Well, i'm back from France:LOL: wot a feckin dump :poop:hole that place is. First we have the yellow jacket fuel protesters setting fire to roundabouts :ROFLMAO:, then for three nights we try the restaurant attached to the hotel where all the food, no matter what you ordered, was bland, tasteless and dare I say, overpriced. We gave up, crossed the border into Germany where we had excellent meals and no issues with translation. Oh, and what's with those handbag wearing Frenchie chaps....wtf is that all about :unsure::ROFLMAO:
 
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