Brexit and the Consequences

Atilla said:
On the other hand Labour party doesn't look all that bad. Jeremy Corbyn steady as a rock come what may, principled strong leader and now gaining credibility and recognition for having some good ideas.
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I think we don't have the same tastes in hallucinogenics - being an old fuddy-duddy I still prefer mine in a glass, however dark it is to see through. In my neck of the multiverse and in no matter what altered state I find myself, JC (the Anno Domini 2017 one) doesn't come across as strong, principled or even much of a leader; then again, neither does the appalling Tory harridan either - Medusa had better people skills.

...and as for fighting to the end - I think it's all over bar the ****ing 🙂
 
Atilla said:
On the other hand Labour party doesn't look all that bad. Jeremy Corbyn steady as a rock come what may, principled strong leader
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Where have you been the last year?

The Labour Party has been split between its leftist Corbynista membership plus trade union leadership and the more moderate centre comprising the voters, trade union members and MP's. The Labour MP's passed a vote of no confidence in his leadership and most of his shadow cabinet resigned. His support amongst Labour voters is underwater. It is actually two parties masquerading as one.

The man himself would not commit for or against EU membership, won't be straight about a second Brexit referendum, about retaining or using Trident, about military support for NATO allies under attack, and finds it easy to criticise anti-semitism in his party but strangely difficult to do anything decisive about it.
 
tomorton said:
Where have you been the last year?

The Labour Party has been split between its leftist Corbynista membership plus trade union leadership and the more moderate centre comprising the voters, trade union members and MP's. The Labour MP's passed a vote of no confidence in his leadership and most of his shadow cabinet resigned. His support amongst Labour voters is underwater. It is actually two parties masquerading as one.

The man himself would not commit for or against EU membership, won't be straight about a second Brexit referendum, about retaining or using Trident, about military support for NATO allies under attack, and finds it easy to criticise anti-semitism in his party but strangely difficult to do anything decisive about it.
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A week is a long time in politics.

I'm sick of the media setting the agenda or what people may have said years ago.

She said no elections until end of fixed term adn we've got elections.

She stayed quite on Brexit referendum pretending to support remainers (even giving positive speech to GS dinner) and then turning all hard and secretive playing arsy games with parliament.

Judges slapped her wrists, Daily Mail comes out with all kind of sh1te and she stays quiet.

TM in the foreign office (holding it for the longest term) has done absolute FA with migration numbers. She not only had the talk she failed the walk too.

Not bloody difficult but most certainly unreliable, lacking credibility and integrity. Then she campaigns on strong and stable leadership. Oh yeah 🙄 Just look at her track record. 👎


Papers on her side pulling the wool over UK peeps eyes and she's lapping up the Eurosceptic interests who put her there.


From my perspective, she's already messed up big time. I do like her pension and social care approach but feel the Tories will get the knives out behind her soon enough. Really sh1te party imo. Beware what you wish for.
 
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Atilla said:
I'm sick of the media setting the agenda or what people may have said years ago.
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Politics is a lot about saying what you think, what you intend to do, what your policies will be, how you will deal with interest groups, sections of society, foreign powers etc.

Its is right to take politicians to task over what they have said and done in the past. What better evidence is there?

As I said, the Conservatives have no strong position on the EU membership issue, they badly screwed that up, and yes, Theresa May could have been hedging her bets by keeping a low profile during the Remain effort (such as it was).

I just draw some consolation that she hasn't shown any signs of being inspired by autocratic dictators or acknowledged terrorist organisations. There isn't any doubt that Jeremy Corbyn and other Labour leaders have expressed admiration for plenty of people with blood on their hands.
 
tomorton said:
Politics is a lot about saying what you think, what you intend to do, what your policies will be, how you will deal with interest groups, sections of society, foreign powers etc.

Its is right to take politicians to task over what they have said and done in the past. What better evidence is there?



As I said, the Conservatives have no strong position on the EU membership issue, they badly screwed that up, and yes, Theresa May could have been hedging her bets by keeping a low profile during the Remain effort (such as it was).

I just draw some consolation that she hasn't shown any signs of being inspired by autocratic dictators or acknowledged terrorist organisations. There isn't any doubt that Jeremy Corbyn and other Labour leaders have expressed admiration for plenty of people with blood on their hands.
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You are regurgitating what the press has been saying. On the contrary I'd say Corbyn was a peaceful man against war. We should celebrate peace.

You are giving TM and the tories wide berth whilst being very particular with others. Aren't you choosing to ignore some of the evidence whilst labouring the point on some body who had no power to act anything.


Also, we are discussing the Labour party and their policies where as you seem to have latched on to Corbyn factor.

On the other hand we have unreliable May with all the evidence but no Tory party.


She had a golden opportunity to be open and inclusive to bring the country together instead she's all argie bargie, I've got the ball, no you can't see what I'm thinking, no parliament shouldn't have a say, people have voted ladiladilaaaa.

She's off her rocker imo. Heseltine has been shafted for holding a view. Much like Thatcher who said she liked strong men only to behead them and favour the yanks.

It's all gone pear shaped with TM and the now the red tory party. It's obvious to me but will take some you folk longer to see. 👎
 
Atilla said:
You are regurgitating what the press has been saying. On the contrary I'd say Corbyn was a peaceful man against war. We should celebrate peace.

You are giving TM and the tories wide berth whilst being very particular with others. Aren't you choosing to ignore some of the evidence whilst labouring the point on some body who had no power to act anything.


Also, we are discussing the Labour party and their policies where as you seem to have latched on to Corbyn factor.

On the other hand we have unreliable May with all the evidence but no Tory party.


She had a golden opportunity to be open and inclusive to bring the country together instead she's all argie bargie, I've got the ball, no you can't see what I'm thinking, no parliament shouldn't have a say, people have voted ladiladilaaaa.

She's off her rocker imo. Heseltine has been shafted for holding a view. Much like Thatcher who said she liked strong men only to behead them and favour the yanks.

It's all gone pear shaped with TM and the now the red tory party. It's obvious to me but will take some you folk longer to see. 👎
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Well, its rather Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell who have brought the spotlight on themselves with their own pronouncements as to other world leaders and terrorist groups. It would be folly to ignore what they have said as, being people of truth and integrity, surely this must be what they truly believe.

Admittedly, May keeps quiet about what she believes in. Clever political cynical game, not to be admired but at least not psychopathically ideological.

But so what if she called an election (within the legal framework of the law I have to add). It just gives voters who don't like her a free chance to get her out. What's wrong with that?

The focus has to be on the Labour leader as his party has split under him. On top of which, his own declared aims and policies would be different to what's in their own manifesto, so he can hardly object to such scrutiny. Naturally, May is playing this game and making it a presidential campaign: but what politician wouldn't? Plus, don't we need a tough politician to go to Brussels now more than ever? (though I'm not 100% convinced she's as tough as she thinks she is)
 
tomorton said:
Well, its rather Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell who have brought the spotlight on themselves with their own pronouncements as to other world leaders and terrorist groups. It would be folly to ignore what they have said as, being people of truth and integrity, surely this must be what they truly believe.

Admittedly, May keeps quiet about what she believes in. Clever political cynical game, not to be admired but at least not psychopathically ideological.

But so what if she called an election (within the legal framework of the law I have to add). It just gives voters who don't like her a free chance to get her out. What's wrong with that?

The focus has to be on the Labour leader as his party has split under him. On top of which, his own declared aims and policies would be different to what's in their own manifesto, so he can hardly object to such scrutiny. Naturally, May is playing this game and making it a presidential campaign: but what politician wouldn't? Plus, don't we need a tough politician to go to Brussels now more than ever? (though I'm not 100% convinced she's as tough as she thinks she is)
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Well I beg to differ as the whole point of the elections is to sort out the split in the Tory party not to remove the weakest opposition ever trying to protect interests of Parliament. Another deceitful spin on truth by TM.

You can believe it's because of the SNP or the LibDems or even Labour but most people know it's to do with pro-Euro elements in her party who she wants to squash precisely because she is a latent dictatorial, control and power infested politician of the highest order as you have described in some respects playing silly buggers with Parliament.

To negotiate one doesn't need to be tough. One needs to do the business analysis, the background work, have the numbers, be charming and approachable and persuasive in argument.

It's like sitting at a poker table before the cards have been dealt bluffing one's way even before negotiations start. How foolish is that?

No deal is better than a bad deal?

What deal? There is no deal on the table yet?

It doesn't matter, if we get a bad float we are walking. All-in! Feck-me. If she and the cabinet knows what they are talking about. EU floats a curved ball @ €100bn and the cabinet up in arms.

I'd laff that off and ask what do I get for that then? Play'm in their own game.

We pay 9bn with 2 more years to go.

How long will the transition period be? Another 2 years. So at 9bn one is already looking at 36bn at current fees. Give or take 5-10bn here and there and we are looking around 40-50. Then there are our assets in the EU? How much are they worth. Some estimated 10bn. So more like 30-40. Fairly reasonable give or take a few years +/- 10 bn.

What a load of tripe the British people have been sold. Kept in the dark and being fed agro sh1te by the Murdochs with differnt agendas than our UK national interests.

So the media and many like your good self rabbit on about Corbyn talking to Sinn Feinn the terrorist organisations criminalizing the guy - only for Major & Blair governments to subsequently talk to the same people delivering peace. I fail to see differences.

From my angle - the whole process is one of deceit and twists to fulfill some remarkably stupid agenda from the likes of Farage who is now some fecking LBC radio DJ living his life having made his millions as a EMP talking tosh.
 
Atilla said:
Well I beg to differ as the whole point of the elections is to sort out the split in the Tory party not to remove the weakest opposition ever trying to protect interests of Parliament. Another deceitful spin on truth by TM.

You can believe it's because of the SNP or the LibDems or even Labour but most people know it's to do with pro-Euro elements in her party who she wants to squash precisely because she is a latent dictatorial, control and power infested politician of the highest order as you have described in some respects playing silly buggers with Parliament.

To negotiate one doesn't need to be tough. One needs to do the business analysis, the background work, have the numbers, be charming and approachable and persuasive in argument.

It's like sitting at a poker table before the cards have been dealt bluffing one's way even before negotiations start. How foolish is that?

No deal is better than a bad deal?

What deal? There is no deal on the table yet?

It doesn't matter, if we get a bad float we are walking. All-in! Feck-me. If she and the cabinet knows what they are talking about. EU floats a curved ball @ €100bn and the cabinet up in arms.

I'd laff that off and ask what do I get for that then? Play'm in their own game.

We pay 9bn with 2 more years to go.

How long will the transition period be? Another 2 years. So at 9bn one is already looking at 36bn at current fees. Give or take 5-10bn here and there and we are looking around 40-50. Then there are our assets in the EU? How much are they worth. Some estimated 10bn. So more like 30-40. Fairly reasonable give or take a few years +/- 10 bn.

What a load of tripe the British people have been sold. Kept in the dark and being fed agro sh1te by the Murdochs with differnt agendas than our UK national interests.

So the media and many like your good self rabbit on about Corbyn talking to Sinn Feinn the terrorist organisations criminalizing the guy - only for Major & Blair governments to subsequently talk to the same people delivering peace. I fail to see differences.

From my angle - the whole process is one of deceit and twists to fulfill some remarkably stupid agenda from the likes of Farage who is now some fecking LBC radio DJ living his life having made his millions as a EMP talking tosh.
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Maybe the PM's purpose of calling an early election might have been to sort out the opposition within the Conservative party, but the result is the same - we get a chance to kick her out. So, again, so what?

It seems that the public would normally be crying out for the chance to go to the booths and vote against an unpopular leader. But at this point you're just obsessing over whether she should have stuck to her original promise. Seems like you want her to be truthful but also have the chance to vote her out. And even if she was truthful/stubbornly stuck to Plan A, you wouldn't be voting for her anyway so what's your point? Well, here's your chance on the 8th June, knock yourself out.

You might say you fail to see differences between Blair and Corbyn's policies talking to the IRA, but Corbyn certainly sets himself aparet from Blair - he seems to regard Blair as the devil himself. Of course, it might be they had different objectives - Corbyn was seeking an IRA victory, what Blair gained was a compromise peace agreement.

Of course politics is a dirty game, full of spin and lies. But the voting population isn't as stupid as some people like to make out.
 
tomorton said:
Maybe the PM's purpose of calling an early election might have been to sort out the opposition within the Conservative party, but the result is the same - we get a chance to kick her out. So, again, so what?

It seems that the public would normally be crying out for the chance to go to the booths and vote against an unpopular leader. But at this point you're just obsessing over whether she should have stuck to her original promise. Seems like you want her to be truthful but also have the chance to vote her out. And even if she was truthful/stubbornly stuck to Plan A, you wouldn't be voting for her anyway so what's your point? Well, here's your chance on the 8th June, knock yourself out.

You might say you fail to see differences between Blair and Corbyn's policies talking to the IRA, but Corbyn certainly sets himself aparet from Blair - he seems to regard Blair as the devil himself. Of course, it might be they had different objectives - Corbyn was seeking an IRA victory, what Blair gained was a compromise peace agreement.

Of course politics is a dirty game, full of spin and lies. But the voting population isn't as stupid as some people like to make out.
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Well this can go on but correct me if I'm wrong isn't the NI parliament talking about unifying with Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland

Not that it makes much difference weather it's Ireland, NI, Wales, Scotland or England or the EU. IRA win won lost who cares as long as peace prevails. Corbyn in some respects was way ahead of the game to want to put down arms and talk. I guess you don't see the same difference. Bit of an oxymoron. To me it's all the same for you it's tad different. 👍

Just simply remove all bleeding borders and let people sort out their own free
movement and business. Free movement of people and businesses. Not a bad idea perhaps after all.


As for me, I supported TM at the start and was very pleased but her conduct, contempt of parliament and the HoLs and handling of Brexit thus far leaning towards a hard exit is just not right for our National interests.

Jobs are already leaving and she's only interested in electioneering and maintaining a bigger majority than she already has just so she can say this is what the people wanted adn we delivered. More tosh. They made us fail. They 'undermined us'. It's already started. MoSCoW-ing has already started.


In my eyes that's just pure tosh pulling the wool over peoples eyes. Being fooled and tricked is not the same as being stupid. When ever I see anyone buying a fizzy drink or coco cola I'm thinking stupid dork. Then there is plastic bottled water when the water that comes out of your tap is perfectly healthy and safe to drink.
Same dorks when they are in hospital drink tap water but at home insist on drinking bottled water.

I'm sure everyone can be sold sh1te they don't need or understand in some false illusion its somehow good for you. You don't have to be stupid. Just don't think it through and let them believe it's good for you and you like it. 👍
 
I think this is very significant divergence and no doubt will have an effect on British policy going forward.

Merkel Signals New Era for Europe as Trump Smashes Consensus

Relations between Germany and the U.S. became strained in 2002-2003 when Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder refused to support the U.S. invasion of Iraq under President George W. Bush. Merkel’s comments, though, signaled a broader Transatlantic split.
 
Atilla said:
I think this is very significant divergence and no doubt will have an effect on British policy going forward.

Merkel Signals New Era for Europe as Trump Smashes Consensus

Relations between Germany and the U.S. became strained in 2002-2003 when Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder refused to support the U.S. invasion of Iraq under President George W. Bush. Merkel’s comments, though, signaled a broader Transatlantic split.
Click to expand...

I'm just back from a work trip in the Netherlands.

As usual, I spent a great deal of my time canvassing opinion on matters EU and Brexit.

The consensus amongst those canvassed was that we Brits have large cahoonas to go up against the mighty EU machine :clap: and that the people over there think the EU needs serious structural reform, with a complete re-think of it's powers and policies. Particularly concerning immigration, free movement, identity, restrictive practice, labour laws etc etc.

Much the same as the UK thinks then :smart:
Always the same story....UK leads and the rest follow :clap:
 
counter_violent said:
I'm just back from a work trip in the Netherlands.

As usual, I spent a great deal of my time canvassing opinion on matters EU and Brexit.

The consensus amongst those canvassed was that we Brits have large cahoonas to go up against the mighty EU machine :clap: and that the people over there think the EU needs serious structural reform, with a complete re-think of it's powers and policies. Particularly concerning immigration, free movement, identity, restrictive practice, labour laws etc etc.

Much the same as the UK thinks then :smart:
Always the same story....UK leads and the rest follow :clap:
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If you want to be a world leader, you'll have to show us some results, first.

Anyone who follows like sheep are mugs.
 
Atilla said:
Yep and the UK joined about 20 years after establishing the EEC. What was all that about then? 🙂
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Well Einstein, it's not rocket science is it.

All started going wrong when they moved away from economic cooperation and towards lecturing and preaching from above.

We should never have joined anyway, as Heath already knew the direction of travel, but deliberately chose to conceal it.
 
counter_violent said:
Well Einstein, it's not rocket science is it.

All started going wrong when they moved away from economic cooperation and towards lecturing and preaching from above.
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I reckon EU is preparing for the next launch forward.

In the near future you will see a great move towards open routes and trade with the East, Russia and Africa.


Moved away from economic cooperation you say and what can be further from the truth. EU is moving towards an ever closer union of cooperation and good sound management.

Remember the four freedoms?

I honestly can't stand Tories and Brexiters trumpeting sovereignty of parliament and then doing everything you can to shut it up. Don't forget 24th of January 2017.

EU is more representitive and better looks after her people than toffy nosed treacherous Tories party of the privileged elitist.

Just look at school funding. Cut of 3% in real terms whilst diverting money to grammer schools. Same as what they did with NHS in Thatcher's time whilst giving tax brakes and subsidies for American companies setting up private hospitals and health insurance. Gross mis-direction of public funds towards the private sector.

And you think you are fighting for British interests and jobs??? Bucket please 🙁
 
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