Asian Coronavirus Outbreak

Hi Jon,
You pose good questions; allow me to address each one and then you can decide for yourself where I sit on the spectrum of 'Coronavirus is a hoax' at one end, to a 'pandemic on a par with Spanish Flu' at the other.
"What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening. This thing has hurtled around the world at breakneck speed from a single source Can anyone seriously believe it’s not a killer?"
I'm not in denial at all, I understand and accept fully that the virus can and does kill and in a very unpleasant manner. Although, I guess that begs the question of how one would define a virus that kills in a pleasant manner! ;-)
"Can anyone seriously believe that responsible governments have nuked their economies for no good reason?"
I think they believe they're doing it for the right reasons, but it's a knee-jerk reaction that they will soon regret and quickly realise there were - and still are - other courses of action that could - and should - have been taken to control the spread of the virus without nuking the economy.
"Can anyone seriously believe that hospitals in the hot spots are not overwhelmed?"
Personally, I've no reason to think this and am happy to accept MSM reporting.
"Can anyone seriously believe this is all some kind of hoax or media induced drama."
It's not a hoax at all. Clearly, it's an international health emergency. However, there's a big question mark as to whether it's as bad as the media make out and, certainly, they play on all the negatives and ramp up the fear at every opportunity. And that's not just bad journalism, it's irresponsible, IMO.

So, yes, there's a health emergency, but why compound the problem unnecessarily by creating an economic one as well? Anyone who says this and dares to stick their head above the parapet is roundly attacked and accused of putting lives at risk. This is plain wrong. Restricting or barring dissenting voices from having a platform puts another nail in the coffin of democracy. Even if the government are doing everything right - a perfect job if that were possible - they should still be held to account for their actions.

When all this has gone away and life returns to something approaching normal, the enquiries - of which there will be many - will begin. I expect the government will be found wanting on numerous levels. Why, as I and others on here keep saying, are they reporting all deaths of people who have the virus as dying from the disease - when this is clearly not the case and is grossly misleading as it skews the death rates? Why was the virus downgraded from HCID status just a few days before the lock down was imposed? Why are planes still landing at Heathrow from China, Italy and elsewhere and the passengers not even being temperature checked - let alone tested for the virus? Why are other scientists with views and mathematical models that differ to those provided by Prof. Neil Ferguson (such as Dr. Sunetra Gupta at Oxford University) being excluded from the debate about how best to tackle the virus? The list of questions is long and, not only are the press and the Labour party failing to ask them, they appear to be in lockstep with the government. All the while, the economy is being trashed at a rate of £3 billion per day. Per day!!! That's simply unsustainable, yet very few people are prepared to say so. It's pretty clear to me that the 'cure' is likely to be a lot deadlier than the disease and the national and personal debt we'll all be saddled with will have ramifications for decades to come.


Lastly, broadly speaking, this chap reflects my views on the whole thing quite well:
Jay Bhattacharya: Questioning Conventional Wisdom of the COVID-19 Crisis
Tim.

I come at this from the field medicine angle. We are at war and the enemy is the virus. We don't have the luxury of time to develop and test vaccines, or follow established protocols. We need to open up to the idea that anything that the practitioners and researchers can do in terms of treatments and stopping this virus in it's tracks is fine by me.
What is not fine by me is the idea that big pharma, govt's, media, regulatory bodies etc get in the way and put roadblocks in place that will drag this situation out a day longer than necessary.
 
It looks suspiciously like everyone will have to get exposed to the virus and take their chances.
So the Govt should ease all restrictions and back to normal.

Eventually we will all need to be infected or will all need to be vaccinated. If neither, then we will have no resistance. The best time to get infected (as there is no vaccine yet) is when the ICU's are pretty quiet and fully staffed. The worst time is right now.
 
I cant find any reference to a single patient in the new Nightingale hospital, has anyone else seen one?
What I can find is other cities are jumping on the lunacy bandwagon (there WAS a full moon last night) and thinking of setting up their own regional Nightingale hospitals, which also will never see a patient and be disassembled in 3 months time.


The madness continues.

I think I saw an ambulance bringing the first patient into the Excel hospital this am on BBC.
 
Eventually we will all need to be infected or will all need to be vaccinated. If neither, then we will have no resistance. The best time to get infected (as there is no vaccine yet) is when the ICU's are pretty quiet and fully staffed. The worst time is right now.

also 3. Many people have already been infected and didn't know it at the time because they only suffered cold like symptoms. I had a continuous cough and fever mid December 2019 after a trip to London by coach. If I had those same symptoms now I'd be self-isolating and probably recorded as a covid-19 case.
 
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also 3. Many people have already been infected and didn't know it at the time because they only suffered cold like symptoms. I had a continuous cough and fever mid December 2019 after a trip to London by coach. If I had those same symptoms now I'd be self-isolating and probably recorded as a covid-19 case.

Yes, for sure. Just in case.

I'm personally convinced I've had covid-19 and am therefore by now (from what I have gleaned from TV) non-infectious and immune.

Pretty soon we reach a numerical tipping point where the antibody test will be of more practical use (but little clinical use) so that society can resume important activity. e.g. some groups of workers with proof of immunity who have to work at close quarters with each other could get back to work and start earning wages and profits again. Asap.
 
Hi Jon,
You pose good questions; allow me to address each one and then you can decide for yourself where I sit on the spectrum of 'Coronavirus is a hoax' at one end, to a 'pandemic on a par with Spanish Flu' at the other.
"What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening. This thing has hurtled around the world at breakneck speed from a single source Can anyone seriously believe it’s not a killer?"
I'm not in denial at all, I understand and accept fully that the virus can and does kill and in a very unpleasant manner. Although, I guess that begs the question of how one would define a virus that kills in a pleasant manner! ;-)
"Can anyone seriously believe that responsible governments have nuked their economies for no good reason?"
I think they believe they're doing it for the right reasons, but it's a knee-jerk reaction that they will soon regret and quickly realise there were - and still are - other courses of action that could - and should - have been taken to control the spread of the virus without nuking the economy.
"Can anyone seriously believe that hospitals in the hot spots are not overwhelmed?"
Personally, I've no reason to think this and am happy to accept MSM reporting.
"Can anyone seriously believe this is all some kind of hoax or media induced drama."
It's not a hoax at all. Clearly, it's an international health emergency. However, there's a big question mark as to whether it's as bad as the media make out and, certainly, they play on all the negatives and ramp up the fear at every opportunity. And that's not just bad journalism, it's irresponsible, IMO.

So, yes, there's a health emergency, but why compound the problem unnecessarily by creating an economic one as well? Anyone who says this and dares to stick their head above the parapet is roundly attacked and accused of putting lives at risk. This is plain wrong. Restricting or barring dissenting voices from having a platform puts another nail in the coffin of democracy. Even if the government are doing everything right - a perfect job if that were possible - they should still be held to account for their actions.

When all this has gone away and life returns to something approaching normal, the enquiries - of which there will be many - will begin. I expect the government will be found wanting on numerous levels. Why, as I and others on here keep saying, are they reporting all deaths of people who have the virus as dying from the disease - when this is clearly not the case and is grossly misleading as it skews the death rates? Why was the virus downgraded from HCID status just a few days before the lock down was imposed? Why are planes still landing at Heathrow from China, Italy and elsewhere and the passengers not even being temperature checked - let alone tested for the virus? Why are other scientists with views and mathematical models that differ to those provided by Prof. Neil Ferguson (such as Dr. Sunetra Gupta at Oxford University) being excluded from the debate about how best to tackle the virus? The list of questions is long and, not only are the press and the Labour party failing to ask them, they appear to be in lockstep with the government. All the while, the economy is being trashed at a rate of £3 billion per day. Per day!!! That's simply unsustainable, yet very few people are prepared to say so. It's pretty clear to me that the 'cure' is likely to be a lot deadlier than the disease and the national and personal debt we'll all be saddled with will have ramifications for decades to come.


Lastly, broadly speaking, this chap reflects my views on the whole thing quite well:
Jay Bhattacharya: Questioning Conventional Wisdom of the COVID-19 Crisis
Tim.

Tim,

The case and death rates are equally skewed a) because you are specifically told not to report it if you have symptoms and self isolate, so there are many cases unrecorded......and b) because the deaths in the official figures are only those dying in hospital (now being made clear in the meedja) and doesn’t include those dying in care homes etc. In London a lot of the elderley with it are being treated at home so presumably those that succumb won’t be included either.

So far as other ways of dealing with it are concerned the government, rightly or wrongly, has chosen its course and can’t start buggering about changing course now or engaging in futile debates about other options since the time for that has past.

ps. I wasn’t getting at you - it was just an observation about the prevailing tone.
 
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I'm personally convinced I've had covid-19 and am therefore by now (from what I have gleaned from TV) non-infectious and immune.
....but you'd still think it worthwhile to take a test, confirmatory...or not?
Pretty soon we reach a numerical tipping point where the antibody test will be of more practical use (but little clinical use) so that society can resume important activity. e.g. some groups of workers with proof of immunity who have to work at close quarters with each other could get back to work and start earning wages and profits again. Asap.

Mmmmmyes. This leads to just how "evidence of immunity" is going to be communicated. The wearing of a Green Star, possibly or the obligation to carry a Pass issued by the NHS?
 
I have a solution to this Coronavirus madness once and for all (a 'final solution' one might say only this one saves lives).

We've known from the start young people are virtually immune to its effects and the old and sick are more likely to need intensive care.

Let's end the lockup and just keep grumpy old men under house arrest GET THE COUNTRY BACK ON ITS FEET!

Here are the FACTS to back that up.

Solution.png


Wait - I'm a grumpy old man - ignore the facts!
 
also 3. Many people have already been infected and didn't know it at the time because they only suffered cold like symptoms. I had a continuous cough and fever mid December 2019 after a trip to London by coach. If I had those same symptoms now I'd be self-isolating and probably recorded as a covid-19 case.

No you wouldn’t. The official guidance says specifically that you shouldn’t tell 111 (or anyone else) so no-one but you and yours would know.
 
Mmmmmyes. This leads to just how "evidence of immunity" is going to be communicated. The wearing of a Green Star, possibly or the obligation to carry a Pass issued by the NHS?

Maybe we will see NHS and care home staff obliged to wear "antibody-tested" badges until the vast majority of the population has been either infected or vaccinated. Maybe we will see the general public wearing these voluntarily. Its only temporary of course, the upside of this virus being so contagious is that the entire world will have been infected within a short period of time.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it emerges that Johnson has had one of the experimental drug cocktails.
Trump sent over some reps armed with drugs and up to date info on usage, for them to discuss with Johnson's doctors. This was mentioned at the Whitehouse press briefing two days ago. This would tie in with the news that the PM, so far, has not been ventilated .
 
From my previous post you can see this whole coronavirus world scare is just another unintended consequence of an ageing population. We know how to make people live longer but guess what, that comes with other problems like dementia, arthritis, diabetes .... we're all going to die of something and getting to 65 was a pipedream in recent human history.

- Life expectancy in the America of 1787 is about 38 years for a white male.
- From the 1500s onward, till around the year 1800, life expectancy throughout Europe hovered between 30 and 40 years of age.

Life expectancy in years
186039.41
186535.1
187039.41
187539.41
 
Let's end the lockup and just keep grumpy old men under house arrest GET THE COUNTRY BACK ON ITS FEET!
Also known as "marriage" - no wonder we're grumpy

Here are the FACTS to back that up.
Wait - I'm a grumpy old man - ignore the facts!
Works for me :)
 
From my previous post you can see this whole coronavirus world scare is just another unintended consequence of an ageing population. We know how to make people live longer but guess what, that comes with other problems like dementia, arthritis, diabetes .... we're all going to die of something and getting to 65 was a pipedream in recent human history.

- Life expectancy in the America of 1787 is about 38 years for a white male.
- From the 1500s onward, till around the year 1800, life expectancy throughout Europe hovered between 30 and 40 years of age.

Life expectancy in years
186039.41
186535.1
187039.41
187539.41

Mornin’ Mr Grumpy

I think the low life expectancy was because of the large numbers of child deaths and those from disease. Assuming you came out of the starting blocks stayed clear of disease you could still live into your 80s and more before you wore out.

Also, your earlier age deaths post was probably not much different from the death age spread in any fatal disease. Everyone is going to die, of course, the aim is to postpone it as long as possible :D
 
Mmmmmyes. This leads to just how "evidence of immunity" is going to be communicated. The wearing of a Green Star, possibly or the obligation to carry a Pass issued by the NHS?
Medical certificate in the same way you used to have to produce a vaccination cert to get into certain countries. I remember having to have a yellow fever cert to get into certain countries or get back from them in my misspent youth.
I expect you will either have to produce a antibody proof cert or if they ever get around to finding a vaccination a similar cert to travel in the future.
 
From my previous post you can see this whole coronavirus world scare is just another unintended consequence of an ageing population. We know how to make people live longer but guess what, that comes with other problems like dementia, arthritis, diabetes .... we're all going to die of something and getting to 65 was a pipedream in recent human history.

- Life expectancy in the America of 1787 is about 38 years for a white male.
- From the 1500s onward, till around the year 1800, life expectancy throughout Europe hovered between 30 and 40 years of age.

Life expectancy in years
186039.41
186535.1
187039.41
187539.41

Within the last 4 months I have visited an elderly uncle who now lives in a care home. If he told me once, he told me four times during the visit. I just want to die now, had enough etc.

The system can work against people in the end. But that's a whole nother discussion!
 
I see Bill Gates is pushing the global vaccination agenda, another billionaire we don't need to listen to. Interesting to listen to UKC, apparently many NHS have written in, one theorises that UKGov could extend the lockdown until a vaccine appears, I think I would rather receive a controlled small dose of Covid-19 to get immunity underway rather than the risk of a new vaccine.

 
Within the last 4 months I have visited an elderly uncle who now lives in a care home. If he told me once, he told me four times during the visit. I just want to die now, had enough etc.

The system can work against people in the end. But that's a whole nother discussion!

That'll be another DNR pinned to his chest then. Very sad, I have heard similar from an immediate member of my family also.

Given the level of madness and anxiety this has caused to ordinarily sane, fit and healthy people, I can imagine that plenty of our elders will just give up mentally.

My advice to the elderly is now that you know the basic facts and how to stay safe, then switch off the MSM, avoid the scaremongering, Project Fear on stereoids and live as happily as can be until the next stage which I assume will be the point where we have enough immunity in the population to ease lockdown restrictions.
 
No you wouldn’t. The official guidance says specifically that you shouldn’t tell 111 (or anyone else) so no-one but you and yours would know.

Impossible. I'd have to tell my employer, and word would quickly spread as it already has with other colleagues who have stayed home due to covid-19 symptoms. In fact, global company e-mails have been distributed with "unfortunately one of our colleagues...[blah] covid-19". Not sure how an official covid-19 record is made...
 
To me, the biggest indicator that we have a problem will not come from MSM. Unfortunately you are labelled a tin hat wearing 'denier' for asking questions, which is par for the course for anything controversial that govt undertakes. I think that the biggest indicator of a problem will come from the hospitals themselves.

We can't trust official stats, therefore, ideally we need an independent covert team of 'press' (if essential workers they wouldn't need to be covert), to take images of hospitals to get some truth into the reporting, impossible I know, given that we are not supposed to be on the streets, therefore the burden would have to fall to whistleblowers.

Whistleblowers in hospitals are either putting themselves at risk already because Covid-19 really is dangerous for them, or would be putting themselves at risk for being a whistleblower (whistleblowers in the UK are apparently protected by law :rolleyes:), but too many end up persecuted, so I guess it aint gonna happen, but you never know.


There may come a point when people, en masse, no longer believe the lockdown is needed and sit on beaches and parks in defiance of the lockdown, what will the authorities do then?
 
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