All Failed Traders should become Vendors!!

trader30 said:
PLAN for newbie (who agrees?):

1. Trade £1 a point on your £5k account until you turn it into £10k (This will probably take a year give or take). If you lose more then £100 in any one day, you arent allowed to trade for a month. If you blow up, you have to start again from the beginning and find another £5k.

2. If you get to £10k (maybe 10% of you will) go to £2pp until you get to £20k. Same rules apply.

3. If you've turned £5k into £20k in 2 years, you can call yourself a trader.

ps. if youre turn £5k into £20k in 2 weeks youre not a trader. You dont have a money management plan. go back to school/bed/crisps.
Click to expand...

So boring. It's easy to make 10% a week. Imagine if you had £500, then all you would need to make is a measly £50 a week. Anyone can do it.
 
trader30 said:
PLAN for newbie (who agrees?):

1. Trade £1 a point on your £5k account until you turn it into £10k (This will probably take a year give or take). If you lose more then £100 in any one day, you arent allowed to trade for a month. If you blow up, you have to start again from the beginning and find another £5k.

2. If you get to £10k (maybe 10% of you will) go to £2pp until you get to £20k. Same rules apply.

3. If you've turned £5k into £20k in 2 years, you can call yourself a trader.

ps. if youre turn £5k into £20k in 2 weeks youre not a trader. You dont have a money management plan. go back to school/bed/crisps.
Click to expand...

Sounds awful for so many reasons.

Why would a newbie dump £5k into a trading account? Why would you not set aside trading money (such as £5k and split it into portions like 5*£1k) and assume they'll probably lose at the beginning and so they can re-deposit rather than lose it all and then have to wait a long time to start over? You haven't even said what risk on a trade is so £1 could be tiny risk. Why would you not trade for a month just because you lose over 100pts in a day? How are you ever going to make it back? What's so special about a month? Why would you just suddenly double your size when your account doubles rather than gradually compound as account grows? If you turn £5 - £20k in 2 years, I wouldn't call them a trader - i'd call them an idiot who would make more stacking shelves in a supermarket (assuming they're going to be trading a full trading day rather than punching some orders in at EOD.)
 
trader30 said:
My 1.25p......

I'm not sure if its possible to make too much more unless you setup so many SB accounts you go under the radar with each one (£5pp etc). And that means multiple platforms open at one time which all crash each other and as soon as you start making decent returns you just get stuck on manual fills which takes 2 pips each side or slips you 20% each time.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit hard of thinking atm..could you explain what you mean in more detail? Thanks..
 
Masquerade said:
Sounds awful for so many reasons.

If you turn £5 - £20k in 2 years, I wouldn't call them a trader - i'd call them an idiot who would make more stacking shelves in a supermarket (assuming they're going to be trading a full trading day rather than punching some orders in at EOD.)
Click to expand...

I'm presuming he means EOD/part time? In which case that's not half bad is it? I don't think it's realistic though, if that's what you mean....
 
trader30 said:
PLAN for newbie (who agrees?):

1. Trade £1 a point on your £5k account until you turn it into £10k (This will probably take a year give or take). If you lose more then £100 in any one day, you arent allowed to trade for a month. If you blow up, you have to start again from the beginning and find another £5k.
Click to expand...

Limiting losses to 5K makes sense. 5K is large enough to cause most people some pain, and cause them to focus. Lets be honest, year one is going to cost you money, and you might as well limit the losses.

Trading at a pound a point makes absolutely no sense. Some bunnies are going to using 10 pip stops, some bunnies are going to be using a 400 pip stop. Probably better to use a fixed fractional position size of 0.5% percent of account.

I know from personal experience the problems that revenge trading can bring, HOWEVER..I dont agree with stopping after a 100 pound loss. Sometimes jumping back on the horse is whats required after a fall. If the method gives a valid trade signal, you take it, even if only on demo platform. Taking a break for the rest of the day, or nipping out to the gym, or walking the dog or anything that gives you space to think and review is useful, but a whole month off for a 1-2% loss makes no sense really.

If you blow up, walk away and never come back. I simply cannot even begin to imagine how stupid someone would need to be to blow an account, anyone doing this needs to face up to the harsh reality that they dont have the slightest chance of ever suceeding in this game if they cant comprehend something so fundementally simple.

trader30 said:
2. If you get to £10k (maybe 10% of you will) go to £2pp until you get to £20k. Same rules apply.

3. If you've turned £5k into £20k in 2 years, you can call yourself a trader.
Click to expand...

Agreed

trader30 said:
ps. if youre turn £5k into £20k in 2 weeks youre not a trader. You dont have a money management plan. go back to school/bed/crisps.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

Agreed, anyone dumb enough to go down this route is just a stupid ****
 
the hare said:
Limiting losses to 5K makes sense. 5K is large enough to cause most people some pain, and cause them to focus. Lets be honest, year one is going to cost you money, and you might as well limit the losses.

Trading at a pound a point makes absolutely no sense. Some bunnies are going to using 10 pip stops, some bunnies are going to be using a 400 pip stop. Probably better to use a fixed fractional position size of 0.5% percent of account.

I know from personal experience the problems that revenge trading can bring, HOWEVER..I dont agree with stopping after a 100 pound loss. Sometimes jumping back on the horse is whats required after a fall. If the method gives a valid trade signal, you take it, even if only on demo platform. Taking a break for the rest of the day, or nipping out to the gym, or walking the dog or anything that gives you space to think and review is useful, but a whole month off for a 1-2% loss makes no sense really.

If you blow up, walk away and never come back. I simply cannot even begin to imagine how stupid someone would need to be to blow an account, anyone doing this needs to face up to the harsh reality that they dont have the slightest chance of ever suceeding in this game if they cant comprehend something so fundementally simple.
Click to expand...

Well I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you here and I'd use Masquerade's option of putting in the money in stages rather than a 5/6 grand chunk. Blowing up a couple of tiny amounts (100 quid, 500 quid, a grand), knowing you've only blown approx. 20% of the capital you've (overall) set aside for the venture, is an OK route into this game imho...If you blow the 5-6K then yes, perhaps walk away, if you've followed basic MM rules, of 0.5 - 1% per trade, and lost it all, then perhaps you and trading are not suited.
 
:
Originally Posted by trader30
PLAN for newbie (who agrees?):

1. Trade £1 a point on your £5k account until you turn it into £10k (This will probably take a year give or take). If you lose more then £100 in any one day, you arent allowed to trade for a month. If you blow up, you have to start again from the beginning and find another £5k.

2. If you get to £10k (maybe 10% of you will) go to £2pp until you get to £20k. Same rules apply.

3. If you've turned £5k into £20k in 2 years, you can call yourself a trader.

ps. if youre turn £5k into £20k in 2 weeks youre not a trader. You dont have a money management plan. go back to school/bed/crisps.
Click to expand...

Its all dependant on your style of trading and how the results of your strategy fall.

BUT you can make much more money than this starting with 5000k....listen:!:

I will give you an example based on how i trade

5000GBP = $8000(roughly) but for the purposes of example lets say your starting balance is $10000.

I look to risk no more than 6.5% per day...ie if you lose this in a day you stop trading NO MATTER WHAT!

Each trade has a max risk of -10pips. You can trade mini contracts of all major products risking $5 per pip, per contract.....so the maximum loss is:

-10(-12pips for slippage and costs). -12pips = -0.6% of your account.
Basically if i lose 10 straight losses i stop for the day.
However my average losing trade is only -7, including all costs and slippage

I look to take 30-40 trades per day....but we will calculate the averages over 30trades

Strategy Expectancy:

40% win Ratio
AvLoss = -7
AvWin = +20

30 TRADES, 12WIN, 18LOSE,

Losses: 18 x 7 = -126 ( In reality, the losses DONT ALL COME AT THE SAME TIME....and if they do then you stop trading ...WE HAVE ALREADY STATED THIS!)

Winners: 12 x 20 = +240

THESE ARE JUST AVERAGES FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES...my actual trades are much more varied than this obviously...

Overall: 240-126 = +114 ( average pips per day )
at $5 per pip = $570 ..lets call this a GOOD DAY

Max Loss day = -126 pips
at $5 per pip = -630...lets call this BAD DAY.

Now lets look at the expectancy on a weekly basis to see how results could fall...After creating a proofitable strategy you then need the emotional balance to implament your plan!

these are the possible scenarios for the week
5 BAD DAYS, = -32%
1 GOOD DAY, 4 BAD DAYS = -20%
2 GOOD DAYS, 3 BAD DAYS = -7.5%
3 GOOD DAYS, 2 BAD DAYS = +4.5%
4 GOOD DAYS, 1 BAD DAY = +16.5%
5 GOOD DAYS = +31%

If you can consistantly keep hitting the results in the bold then you can make much more than was stated by "trader 30". And i think the risk levels for my trading is fine...well its fine for me! :D

PS.....this is a scalable method....and I double my position size everytime i double my money, with the parameters above.
 
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Masquerade said:
Sounds awful for so many reasons.

Why would a newbie dump £5k into a trading account? Why would you not set aside trading money (such as £5k and split it into portions like 5*£1k) and assume they'll probably lose at the beginning and so they can re-deposit rather than lose it all and then have to wait a long time to start over? You haven't even said what risk on a trade is so £1 could be tiny risk. Why would you not trade for a month just because you lose over 100pts in a day? How are you ever going to make it back? What's so special about a month? Why would you just suddenly double your size when your account doubles rather than gradually compound as account grows? If you turn £5 - £20k in 2 years, I wouldn't call them a trader - i'd call them an idiot who would make more stacking shelves in a supermarket (assuming they're going to be trading a full trading day rather than punching some orders in at EOD.)
Click to expand...



@Masquerade:

I suppose the point i (badly) tried to make is i believe a newbie will only really learn lessons if they begin as they mean to continue. Whats the point in opening an account with £1k when they either have to run a high % per trade strategy (=not starting how they mean to continue) or are going to have such tight stops that the spread is actually going to effect them, even if it is just 1 point. (2% of £1k = £20 = really limits your options)

When I said £1pp, I didnt really mean this. (Doing a pretty bad job today - NONE of my orders have executed!) The idea of the £100 is its 2% of the account. This is what I believe a newbie could start risking each day. If they lose MORE (more than their money management plan that theyre supposed to follow, the 1 month no trading is punnishment). So basically, you give them £100 to play with. If they choose to do £5pp at 20 point stop, or £2pp at 50 point stop fair enough. You can allow very minor changes to this as newbie is limited to round £1s pp by the SB company. You get my drift.

Vs Working at Iceland stacking freezers: The purpose of this relatively simple trading plan (of course ive not even mentioned what/how/when they trade yet although I dont think this is too important at this stage - more later) is to see if they have the ability to follow the simple rules of money management for a period of time. You might think this is simple but in my 5 year (3000+ clients) experience of newbie/newish traders this really isnt the case. Yes they could make much more working in a supermarket. Doing my masters wasnt cost effective over those 2 years (I could have sold The Big Issue in the park for 2 years) but in the end it paid off (or did it?!).

@Black Swan: The point I was trying to make is SB firms arent too keen on winning traders lots of the time but if you can keep your stakes/wins relatively low (few grand a month I dont think they would be too bothered - plus often youre too small to cost effectively hedge) you should stay under the radar and stay on autofill. Once you come off this, you will wait 3 seconds for your trade to be filled and youll prob get the worse price over those 3 seconds. Or youll get requoted. Or youll just get spike/slipped.

@the hare: See above re £s/pp and 1 month £100 rule. Agreed, £5k is something but not too much. £500 who really cares and £50k = smaller house.

@Black Swan: Im not sure it would really be that easy to blow up if newbie folowed these rules. Ok so they need some basic market knowledge, not make any operational mistakes, stick rigidly to the MM plan, have basic knowledge of risk vs reward (I could even add this to the plan, all r:r must be between 1:0.8 and 1:4 ??) and not be a complete fool. Going back to the "how to trade part" who really cares?! Ask the cat where the dow is going! He/she has got just a good clue as you do at day 1! Flip a coin, spin a bottle who cares. If you follow these rules with NO PLAN (as in you do flip a coin) youre pretty much at the end of the year going to be down by the spread (on average - please dont jump on this and say some will lose all and others will make 10x there account, yes OF COURSE, i agree with you, there will be a std dev of results but on average over the year newbie will be down by the spread) - the idea is to show them the importance of MM, natural wining/losing streaks etc.

@SpiritBeing: We are all looking forward to see you post your trades and not blow up. Until you start trading live and posting true results, as you already know, youre going to have a lot of doubters on here. Virtual/Demo does not equal live fills. And the Sb company loves you making money on a demo, but get on the live, start making £5k a month, and theyll start looking at you, and unfortunately, things will probably then change. - Looking forward to your live posts.

Think I'm done. Just got filled too! ;) Short FTSE @ 6053. (No more details)
 
donaldduke said:
Become a Vendor!!!!
Click to expand...

<Stewey Griffin-to-Brian>
So there Dukey, got a new career move all lined up eh?
Seen a new opportunity....?
Better than the old career, eh?
Hopin' to meet some would-be-trader chicks then are yah?
All eyelashes and lookin' up to yah, eh?
Hittin a bad patch with the old tradin' there ... eh eh?

You talkin' to us, but really talkin' to yourself there Dukey?

Eh?

...Eh?

.....Well good luck with that!
</Stewey>
 
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trader30 said:
@SpiritBeing: We are all looking forward to see you post your trades and not blow up. Until you start trading live and posting true results, as you already know, youre going to have a lot of doubters on here. Virtual/Demo does not equal live fills. And the Sb company loves you making money on a demo, but get on the live, start making £5k a month, and theyll start looking at you, and unfortunately, things will probably then change. - Looking forward to your live posts.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I dont spread bet i trade Futures with Direct Market Access..(y)

I get the point about doing it live.....but i have been actively trading for 6 years and i have executed probably well over 1000 trades so im not smoking crack lol....its not a pipe dream.

I have posted a few trades but i cant do real time posts on a regular because of the speed i trade and the style i use. I have posted a few things...some live trades, and some overall analysis of my trading day. check it out.....pages 3,4,5,6 are good IMO

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...80-current-charts-you-find-interesting-3.html

As for the paper trading / real trading .....watch this from part 4-part 7(watch the whole thing if you can! Its excellent advice)......listen to what he says about paper trading....i think im going to be fine (y):p(y)

 
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SpiritBeing said:
Thanks. I dont spread bet i trade Futures with Direct Market Access..(y)

I get the point about doing it live.....but i have been actively trading for 6 years and i have executed probably well over 1000 trades so im not smoking crack lol....its not a pipe dream.

I have posted a few trades but i cant do real time posts on a regular because of the speed i trade and the style i use. I have posted a few things...some live trades, and some overall analysis of my trading day. check it out.....pages 3,4,5,6 are good IMO

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...80-current-charts-you-find-interesting-3.html

As for the paper trading / real trading .....watch this from part 4-part 7(watch the whole thing if you can! Its excellent advice)......listen to what he says about paper trading....i think im going to be fine (y):p(y)
Click to expand...




Good Luck!

Ignore the haters, go do your thing.
 
montmorencyt2w said:
<Stewey Griffin-to-Brian>
So there Dukey, got a new career moved all lined up eh?
Seen a new opportunity....?
Better than the old career, eh?
Hopin' to meet some would-be-trader chicks then are yah?
All eyelashes and lookin' up to yah, eh?
Hittin a bad patch with the old tradin' there ... eh eh?

You talkin' to us, but really talkin' to yourself there Dukey?

Eh?

...Eh?

.....Well good luck with that!
</Stewey>
Click to expand...
I watch too much family guy, because that all played out perfectly in my head.
 
bbmac said:
As we all know, you could give a bunch of traders the same system/emthodology/edge and they will all come out with different results. Even an entirely mechanical non discretionary one will see some follow the rules/some break them etc... The simple truth is that we should all develop our own trading edge from the bits that make sense to us even if they come from someone else's trading edge.

G/L
Click to expand...

Good coaching would address both elements of a trading system; the strategy and the trader. Successful strategies when traded my an unsuccessful methods will still lose money. Therefore coaching that does not address the trader have limited value.

Part of the coaching process for addressing the trader element of the trading system is to teach them tools and techniques that will help separate failure of the trader from failure of the strategy. This helps reduce the losses from the failure of either element. And if it is the trader that has failed, it should present that information in a way that cannot be ignored and can be improved.
 
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