Which Market/Job Roles should I choose

Hi all,

I am currently a successful poker player. I am one of the UK’s top ranked poker players and experienced success both domestically and internationally. I do believe that the intellectual skills required to play poker at an international level, i.e. to assess the balance between risk and reward, the capacity to concentrate for long periods of time and to think objectively under great pressure, are amongst the most important skills needed to succeed in the financial industry.

Working in the financial industry was the dream I had when I was at school and at the forefront of my mind when applying for university. I was accepted into University of Surrey to study Economics but deferred it for the first year when I received my first sponsorship and rejected it the following year due to the success I was having.

I am getting on a bit now (24), and with a young family on the way, I am looking for a long term future and something more financially secure.

I am used to playing up to 30 tables of poker across 4 screens online, which I assume is similar to the concentration required when multi screen trading

My question is, what should I look to do? I have 1 years paid work experience at a Commodity Brokers. That however required a lot of cold calling, which while I didn't mind, wasn't what I expected. I haven't kept an interest in the markets at all since I have left school and whatever route I choose, I will have no current knowledge in other then what I can absorb from the internet.

So, what industry what I best be suited to? (futures, forex, stocks, indicies etc)?

Thanks in advance

sam11788 said:

Hi all,

I am currently a successful poker player. I am one of the UK’s top ranked poker players and experienced success both domestically and internationally. I do believe that the intellectual skills required to play poker at an international level, i.e. to assess the balance between risk and reward, the capacity to concentrate for long periods of time and to think objectively under great pressure, are amongst the most important skills needed to succeed in the financial industry.

Working in the financial industry was the dream I had when I was at school and at the forefront of my mind when applying for university. I was accepted into University of Surrey to study Economics but deferred it for the first year when I received my first sponsorship and rejected it the following year due to the success I was having.

I am getting on a bit now (24), and with a young family on the way, I am looking for a long term future and something more financially secure.

I am used to playing up to 30 tables of poker across 4 screens online, which I assume is similar to the concentration required when multi screen trading

My question is, what should I look to do? I have 1 years paid work experience at a Commodity Brokers. That however required a lot of cold calling, which while I didn't mind, wasn't what I expected. I haven't kept an interest in the markets at all since I have left school and whatever route I choose, I will have no current knowledge in other then what I can absorb from the internet.

So, what industry what I best be suited to? (futures, forex, stocks, indicies etc)?

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

Sam,

Very tough getting into the industry at the moment without a lot of experience or with a potent client bank.

What is your financial situation? If you have made money playing poker... could you use a proportion of this and start trading for yourself?

Real trading has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gambling games like poker!! lol

If you are making a living out of poker keep at it.


If you want to learn how to trade get a virtual trading account with ETX capital or igindex,
select a trading style, select your trading stratergy for that style,
and then start looking through charts to learn how support and resistance levels work on various timeframes + what various chart patterns mean,
then practise with a virtual account for a few weeks.

If you are doing ok with virtual money then put a few thousand pound into your account and trade at £1 per point for a few months whilst you try building your capital.

I think when you come here, you had a good choice for yourself, that's Forex. Your Poker experience would be very helful in trading. You can try it with demo accounts with some popular broker as Hotforex or fxpro, fxcm... Good luck to you!

Hi Sam,
Welcome to the site - although I see you've been a member for quite a few months now.

Many members would disagree with BigBootyBabe's assertion that trading has "absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gambling games like poker" - not least because many members are of the view that trading is gambling! Certainly, if you open a spread betting account then you are considered to be a gambler by HMRC. However, all this is immaterial to your basic question. Certainly, the skills you have acquired playing poker are unlikely to do you any harm when applied to trading - and may well help you. The mistake that you could easily make - and perhaps this is what BigBootyBabe had in mind - is to think that because you've been successful at poker, it's a foregone conclusion that you'll also be successful at trading. Suffice to say, there's nothing the market likes more or does best than to hand a trader's ar$e to him/her on a plate when they get a little arrogant and cocky!

I had to laugh when you said you're getting on a bit aged 24 as I'm not (yet) getting on a bit and I'm in my mid 50s! Age is still very much on your side. As to where to start, besides carrying on as you are playing poker, I think you've got 3 basic choices . . .

A) If you've managed to save some money from your poker playing, it's worth considering going back to Uni to fund yourself getting a qualification that will then open career doors that might otherwise remain shut.

B) Opening a demo account and diving right into trading is a quick, easy and risk free way of getting a feel for the markets and trading - and will help you decide if this is a route you really want to pursue. Keep in mind though that the DIY route is slow for most people. You're young and smart but, even so, don't kid yourself about the size of the hurdle ahead of you. I've never played poker - ever. If I came to you - knowing absolutely nothing about the game - and said I wanted to become a pro player and make my living doing it - what would you say? Whatever your answer, multiply it times 10 for trading!

C) It might be worth approaching one of the proprietary trading firms to see if they would be interested in taking you on. If you can get into a good one (beware, as there are some very dodgy outfits out there) - it will fast track your learning and should save you a lot of time. Have a gander at this FAQ: How Do I get a Job Trading? - and check out the links in the post #3.

HTH,
Tim.

Thanks a lot for all the replies guys.

Faceman - yes using some of my own personal finance is an option. The thing I am worried about is practice trading for however long, then thinking I can be profitable and lose a significant chunk because I am not and was simply 'running well'. I see it all the time in poker and it literally makes me facepalm. Someone will pack in a good job and ruin there career because they've had a good/lucky 6 months at poker and think they can be the next big thing.

Bigbootybabe - I do have a an account with +500 that I opened around a week ago and received a free £20. I am currently at £24.86 and that includes a couple of accidently longing positions I wanted to short and vice versa that have ended up costing me. At least I know my intentions were right though . With regards to a trading style, I assume you mean choosing fundamental/technical analysis? At the moment I am literally reading bbc news and The Times and basing my decisions on news in there. It seems to me that ideally I would have sufficient knowledge in both fundamental and technical analysis to use both forms to make my decisions. However what I don't know is how to find out or where I can learn the analysis concepts.

Bigmistake - Forex does seem a good option. The problem I have at the moment is obviously the forex markets are limited to however many markets and I don't know how to interpret the information to make a decision on possible investments. So for the while I am trading in anything and everything, as long as I feel I have a good enough reason to suspect a movement. Is there somewhere I could read/learn about the forex markets in more detail? (starting in Layman terms of course )

Thanks a lot for the reply Tim. Of course I by no means think that the 2 go hand in hand . I simply meant that, to me, it seems the fundamental skills that need to be applied to be successful in poker seem to overlap trading. I am under no illusion that poker is going to give me nothing more then a slight feel for the concepts that need to be applied to be a successful trader.

1) This is an option. However, I have a young family and if I were to go to Uni I would want to focus solely on that. This means giving up poker completely. I don't trust myself to do this as if times were to get a little tough I think I would deem it far too easy to go back to poker for a few months. Needless to say poker, like trading, is risky. Our edge comes from as playing as many tournaments, cash games as possible to ride through any negative variance. This is going to be very hard to do while trying to focus on a Uni course as well.

b) Done ! Spending a lot of time on this at the moment. However, practice makes permanent, not perfect . There is a good chance my reasoning's are flawed or downright wrong and I'm getting lucky breaks. You mention about what I would say if you were to become a pro poker player, yes it would be hard. However, I believe that in 2 months I could turn someone with no understanding of poker, except maybe hand values to win at poker. Then through the next 6 months I believe I could teach them to beat the game enough to make a living. However their hourly rate my be the equivalent of working at tescos. From there I think it would take another 6 months to teach them enough where they would progress to a level where they could make a good enough living and be left on their own to progress through the stakes. Problems with this however is, some people are limited in their 'poker brain' and often hitting a ceiling they will never break through. However in the concepts I've mentioned, many successful poker players dive in halfway through the above cycle, and take a small winning player with good fundamentals at whatever stake, start staking/coaching them until they get to a higher level where they themselves are going to be benefiting out of their %'s. I guess what I am asking is, is this possible in trading? Finding a firm that will take you on as an 'apprentice' almost, or is this just the same a trainee trader?

C) Perfect. Incidentally, the first link doesn't seem to work and I have opened a couple of these firms from the 2nd link and they all seem to be american?! IS this just because of the small sample or are they all because im based in UK? I will look through properly when home either way.


Again thanks for all replies guys. Appreciate any more info anyone has

Hi Sam,

sam11788 said:

. . . it seems the fundamental skills that need to be applied to be successful in poker seem to overlap trading.

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As I say, I'm not a poker player but, having read a lot of posts on here from those that are, I'm of the same view. One thing to keep in mind is that, over the years, there have been a steady trickle of poker players wanting to make the transition into trading. I don't know of any (that's not to say there aren't any) who are still trading now!

sam11788 said:

. . . . This is going to be very hard to do while trying to focus on a Uni course as well.

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I hear what you're saying and it makes sense. If you did decide that a return to Uni / college is your best option, perhaps you could stick with the poker and save hard until you've enough put by to see you through your studies?

sam11788 said:

. . . I guess what I am asking is, is this possible in trading? Finding a firm that will take you on as an 'apprentice' almost, or is this just the same a trainee trader?

Click to expand...

Yes, a prop' firm will train you. However, as I touched on in my last post, you need to be crystal clear about what you're getting into before signing any contracts. Self evidently, this is a catch-22 for someone new to the industry. The good news is that there are peopole here who can offer good advice - although I'm not one of them I'm afraid as I know nothing about prop firms! The other alternative is to find a coach or mentor. Unfortunately, they have a very poor reputation as the industry is largely unregulated and there are loads of rogues out there. The standard advice offered by many T2W members is to avoid such people like the plague. It's not a view I share but, certainly, extreme care and due diligence needs to be undertaken before enlisting the services of any coach or mentor. If you're considering going down this route, check out these two FAQs first: How Can I Distinguish Between Scams and Reputable Vendors? and Can You Recommend a Mentor, Coach or Trading Course?

sam11788 said:

Incidentally, I have opened a couple of these firms and they all seem to be american?! IS this just because of the small sample or are they all because im based in UK? I will look through properly when home either way.

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It's not an area I've researched I'm afraid but, certainly, there are plenty of UK firms around - of which Futex is probably the best known. Check out the Trading Arcades forum and the Trading Firms forum.
Tim.

I would add that what BigBooty has stated is complete rubbish... in my opinion.

If you have been successful at Poker it shows you have the most necessary skill in being a competent trader..... Discipline.

Let me cut your reading/studying/appraisal process down by say 5 years (but don't stop it)... there are literally 1000s of trading set ups/strategies/formulas etc etc that do actually work.... however they fail on the person using them because of that very same person.

The key to long term, consistent profits is finding a trading methodology that you totally are in tune with, something you passionately love and care about like a good woman... if it bores you or you are not that into it... leave it, you will lose money. Until you hit this passion keep searching.

Then, when you have this, it's all about applying sensible Risk Management overlay to make you sure dont go bust.... point here is there has never been and there will never be a trading method that works 100% of the time... so to sum up.. lets say you find your chosen method works 60% of the time... you need to make sure your risk management takes this firmly into consideration. For example and a very basic example you may want to risk £1 for £2 you try to gain.

and finally the key to gelling this all together and making it work... and the piece that 99% of people who fail at trading have not got and just don't think enough about... Discipline to day in day out follow your rules.

Best of luck.

BigBootyBabe said:

Real trading has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gambling games like poker!! lol

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One of the biggest options market making firms seems to think otherwise:

Susquehanna International Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Poker and other games are an important part of the SIG company culture. The founders and senior traders believe that poker teaches lessons on risk taking that are applicable to trading in financial markets. SIG hosts an internal poker tournament annually and has even used poker as a recruiting tool. The company employs Bill Chen, a World Series of Poker star, in its quantitative trading group. [7]

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SIG Susquehanna :: Life @ SIG :: Game Theory Applications

Game Theory Applications

SIG employees enjoy success in the financial markets in part because of the application of game theory concepts to complex market dynamics. The activities listed below highlight different aspects of the strategic landscape in which we operate.

Poker—SIG commonly uses poker to teach new hires about decision making under uncertainty. In poker, players must make decisions based on incomplete information, using probability to determine the expected value of those decisions. Similarly, SIG traders make risk decisions based on the limited information they get from the markets and relate that to the expected value of each trade...

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I think there is a general overlap in skills from poker to trading, discipline, bankroll management etc but they are largely different. If you are successful in poker then why not stick to it? The general level of players nowadays in online poker is quite high (compared to the boom years in the early 2000's) but there's still plenty of fish lurking about on the not so popular poker sites and definitely in the live cash games as well, (circumstances allowing of course).

If you want to start a career in trading working for a firm then im afraid it may be a bit late for you as you generally need a degree from a top uni as a bare minimum requirement. But if you plan to trade your own funds privately at home then there is a steep learning curve. If you're willing to sit long hours in front of a screen trading then why not stick to poker since you're successful at it already?

Hi Sam

and welcome ....

Congratulations on the Poker success to date .....my Father and Grandfather were professional gamblers back in the 60's and 70's...Dad was also a very good Poker player and used it to supplement income but in truth they were both more into their bookmaking business and betting the horses

I dabbled in Poker back in the late 70's mainly but the corporate backing and focus wasnt there like todays market and the table time used to kill me....(even in my tender Teens) ...plus I had a line of information from Dad on Racehorses so it wasnt really needed in truth and was to much like hard work....

Naturally you could transition to trading.....no issues there

just close your eyes and think back to what you did in your early poker years......how did you gain the knowledge ?.....did you have mentors ?.....what were you doing ?.......where were the breakthough moments ?........what is your best learning style ?.....

and then apply the same principles to trading........it will take time but you will get there if you want to .......

regarding "work" and employment .....i'd forget it ......become profitable and then build a stake and then leverage it .......this isnt poker with the big prize money competitions and sponsorships that help things along

good luck and best wishes
Neil
(NVP)

sam11788 said:

Bigmistake - Forex does seem a good option. The problem I have at the moment is obviously the forex markets are limited to however many markets and I don't know how to interpret the information to make a decision on possible investments. So for the while I am trading in anything and everything, as long as I feel I have a good enough reason to suspect a movement. Is there somewhere I could read/learn about the forex markets in more detail? (starting in Layman terms of course )

Click to expand...

Babypips.com is a good place for you to learn more about forex market. That site is very useful. Also you can find some good signal or analysis from some well-known brokers to make a good investment decision.