Poker Player Looking To Get Into Trading

[ffsear]

Usually? If it usually gets beat, then it is not the strongest hand. What a strange statement.

?

No its not, if a player folds with strongest hand, then hes lost with the strongest hand. Simple!

And the best hand in poker is not clear until the 5th community card is drawn. But which point most players will be out the game.

So yes, its totally true that the best hand does not always win. If it did, the game would be very simple!

 

[PipStar]

Where does this absolute rubbish come from?

May be you could enlighten us all with your wisdom?

Or tell us why what I posted was rubbish?

Or even better, may be you could name a professional poker player that has made it to become a professional trader?

 

[Pat494]

Usually? If it usually gets beat, then it is not the strongest hand. What a strange statement.

I too have noticed a lot of these poker player turning to trading threads. I can believe some skills are useful from poker, but why do they all have to tell us they were poker players? You don't get as many threads for any other occupation that I've seen. Bouncer turning to trading, farmer, teacher, window cleaner, undertaker taking up trading. What is it with the poker players?

Mostly they are arrogant and full of their own self importance. Poker is easy compared to trading. And why is that you ask if you haven't switched off already.
The reason is that poker players have to be sane and disciplined etc. The market is irrational a lot of the time but not always, which makes it harder. You will have to guess the majority decision while it lasts which ranges from seconds to hours or even longer.
Keep the day job and work from the comfort of home or you will never see the wood for the trees.

 

[Shakone]

No its not, if a player folds with strongest hand, then hes lost with the strongest hand. Simple!

And the best hand in poker is not clear until the 5th community card is drawn. But which point most players will be out the game.

So yes, its totally true that the best hand does not always win. If it did, the game would be very simple!

I don't think you're reading what I wrote. I didn't say the strongest hand can't be beaten.

He said the strongest hand usually gets beaten by a crappy hand that someone else has gone in with. Not the hand beaten by someone folding their hand, beaten by another hand.

And yes you can have a strongest hand after the 5th card is drawn, it is a winning hand as everything has been decided. You can also have a strongest hand from flop, and a strongest hand before that 5th card is drawn.

If you have the strongest hand just before that 5th card is drawn, then this says that statistically, you have a higher % chance of winning than any other hand even though that final card is random, and you may lose. Wouldn't you agree this is what's meant by the strongest hand at the time?

 

[kimo'sabby]

And the best hand in poker is not clear until the 5th community card is drawn.

Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect.

 

[romski]

poker and trading bare little similarities IMHO, they both require balls and guts but thats about it. Poker is more about your opponent, can you scare them into putting there hand down.

in the markets its a totally different beast

glad you have made money from poker I am close to losing my bank on sky poker internet poker seems a total joke sometimes, but what can you do.

It sounds like you are bored of poker but you are still making money, why not carry on and use the winnings from poker to teach yourself on the markets

 

[ffsear]

I don't think you're reading what I wrote. I didn't say the strongest hand can't be beaten.

He said the strongest hand usually gets beaten by a crappy hand that someone else has gone in with. Not the hand beaten by someone folding their hand, beaten by another hand.
?

Sorry, the only way a weaker hand wins, is if they bluff someone into folding. Other wise the strongest hand will ALWAYSwin when it comes down to the flop.

I don't get this statement that Weaker hands usually beat the stronger ones??? That comes down entirely to the player, not the cards

 

[PipStar]

poker and trading bare little similarities IMHO, they both require balls and guts but thats about it.

That is also my point all along. Poker players are welcome like everyone else to trade the markets but trading is a completely different ball game.

 

[ffsear]

May be you could enlighten us all with your wisdom?

Or tell us why what I posted was rubbish?

Or even better, may be you could name a professional poker player that has made it to become a professional trader?

When we talk about the similarities of poker and trading for a living. We are not comparing a card game to the stock markets. But the idea of having a pot of money, managing it and your risk. Using it to generate a salary, dealing with the emotional swings, sticking to a system/method, removing your emotions from the money, and so on.

The 2 a very similar in that respect.

 

[Pat494]

I play poker and trade. Very rarely do I do well at both on the same day. It is usually up in one and down in the other. Which forces the conclusion that they are not very similiar but different in subtle ways. I haven't worked out why, except it is a different mindset.

 

[ffsear]

Says it better.........(not my words)

1) Both are high-frequency performance activities - What this means is that motivated students have many opportunities to play many times in the course of a day. The high frequency nature of poker hands and short-term trades means that performers see many patterns in a relatively short period of time. This accelerates the learning curve. It also enables most poker players and short-term traders to be self-taught. They learn through repeated observation and experience. Seeing many hands in many different game situations and learning from your betting successes and mistakes is a great teacher in both fields.

2) Both combine elements of statistical edge with discretionary judgment - In trading, you can think of the markets leading up to your trading session as the cards you've been dealt. Sometimes your cards provide you with a strong edge. When the market recently sold off on record put/call volume, for example, there was a strong edge to the upside. Similarly, drawing two aces offers far better odds than drawing a 2 and a 9 unsuited. Neither the short-term trader nor the poker player will slavishly follow these odds, however. It's important to see what is happening in the moment; that is where discretionary judgment enters. A steep selloff on unexpected economic news will alter a trader's willingness to bet on a bullish market pattern. Subtle tells around the table will tell the poker player it's OK to bluff with a relatively weak hand. Poker players and short-term traders need to have an edge and know what it is, but they also have to be able to use real-time judgment as to when to proceed with so-so odds.

3) Both fields require disciplined money management - In poker, going "all in" can bring a quick score, but also a quick exit from the table. Sizing bets (trades) too large for one's stake can bring ruin on a series of losing hands (markets). On the other hand, both poker players and traders know how important it is to press an advantage when it's there. A large percentage of profits will come from a relatively small number of hands (trades). Staying in the game is key, but winning also requires aggressiveness when you've got the "nuts": the strongest hand.

4) Winning in both fields requires a willingness to not play - This is important. If you think of the prior market action as the cards you're dealt (the hole cards), market behavior as you're trading represents the new cards that are revealed (flop, turn, river). At any point, you can decide to bet or not bet, and you can decide how much to bet. Good poker players "muck" many hands; they don't bet when odds aren't on their side. Similarly, good traders will stand aside if they don't see a market that provides adequate volume and volatility. Knowing when to play--and how aggressively to play--is a major element in success for both professionals.

5) Winning requires that you know who you're up against - In poker, you'll bet differently at a small table than a large one. You'll bet differently in a local casino, playing against amateurs, than during the late rounds of a professional tournament. Over time, poker players learn the patterns of their adversaries and use these to make betting decisions. Similarly, short-term traders become sensitive to the impact of large market participants. They see if volume is entering the market on buying or selling and adjust their strategies accordingly. In that sense, both poker players and short-term traders must be shrewd psychologists: they try to get inside the heads of competitors.

Is this a hand I want to play? As the game is progressing, how is my edge changing? How much to I want to bet on this hand? Who is participating at the table with me and which way are they leaning? These are fine questions for poker players and traders alike.

 

[PipStar]

I play poker and trade. Very rarely do I do well at both on the same day. It is usually up in one and down in the other. Which forces the conclusion that they are not very similiar but different in subtle ways. I haven't worked out why, except it is a different mindset.

There you go. I could not have put it any better.

 

[romski]

Sorry, the only way a weaker hand wins, is if they bluff someone into folding. Other wise the strongest hand will ALWAYSwin when it comes down to the flop.

I don't get this statement that Weaker hands usually beat the stronger ones??? That comes down entirely to the player, not the cards

The weaker hand usually beats the stronger due to the stronger hand rarely being that powerful, eg top pair+kicker or 2 pair. can easily be knocked off if there is a 1 card straight or a pair on the board and you rep a set of trips.

Position is VITAL in poker aswell, its alot easier to bet than it is to call

 

[PipStar]

Is this a hand I want to play? As the game is progressing, how is my edge changing? How much to I want to bet on this hand? Who is participating at the table with me and which way are they leaning? These are fine questions for poker players and traders alike.

We can find similarities between many occupations apart from poker player and trader, that doesn't mean that the skills gained in one can sucessfully be used in the other.

Actually, no one has thought about this but I think a professional trader would most likely suck at playing professional poker. Because each activity requires a set of skills which may look the same at first but are actually not similar.

 

[ffsear]

We can find similarities between many occupations apart from poker player and trader, that doesn't mean that the skills gained in one can successfully be used in the other.

Actually, no one has thought about this but I think a professional trader would most likely suck at playing professional poker. Because each activity requires a set of skills which may look the same at first but are actually not similar.

The question is, what traits make a sucessful trader? What traits make a successful poker player? Please explain how the 2 would be completely different. You said the skills are not similar, so lets hear them!


The below article from Bloomberg details 6 common traits that are deemed to be vital for successful trading. I'd be interested to know why people think these don't apply to playing poker for a living ?

Self-discipline

The one trait that's most often mentioned by traders themselves as being the single most essential ingredient of successful trading is self-discipline. It is the one common trait exhibited by every good trader, and it's the catchphrase of every tutorial and seminar you'll ever take on the subject and every day trading book you'll likely ever read.

What exactly is self-discipline? It's defined as "training to act in accordance with rules" and "a regimen that develops or improves a skill." In trading, you must first discipline yourself to learn everything you need to know about trading and the markets; then you must discipline yourself to create your own rules and trading plan; and on a daily basis you must discipline yourself to follow the rules that you've set forth in your plan.

Mercifully for all of humanity, self-discipline is not a talent; it can be learned by anyone. It's a process of learning how to take conscious control of your actions, of operating outside your belief system in order to effect change upon a belief that may be standing between you and your goal. In a very real sense, self-discipline is like a muscle – the more you use it, the stronger it gets. Learning self-discipline should be the main goal in your endeavor to becoming a successful trader.

Master your ego

When it comes to trading, your ego can quickly become your own worst enemy. The reason is that it can prevent you from taking responsibility for a losing trade. Most people don't like to admit that they're wrong about something (and many have a distaste for admitting being wrong about anything), and an oversized and unmanaged ego can compel one to great lengths in order to keep from admitting an error. Nevertheless, it must be realized that being wrong is part of the trading game. (This holds true for all types of investing; for no experienced investor of any longevity has ever been right with each and every decision.) Even successful traders are wrong 50, 60, 70, or even 80 percent of the time. They can be wrong most of the time and still be successful because they keep their losses small and they let their profits run.

But in order to do this you must be able to control your ego and take responsibility for your trades. When a trade turns bad, you can't blame it on the market, because is the market is necessarily neutral. And you can't blame it on the company whose stock you bought, because the company has no direct control over stock prices. Nor can you blame it on the head trader or mentor whose advice you took. If you let someone else call your shots for you, then you've handed over your control to them. So who's left? A quick trip to the nearest mirror will answer that question rather succinctly. You are responsible for your own trades – you, and you alone.

Taking responsibility for successful trades is not difficult at all. But admitting to a bad trade goes against the grain. However, to keep a small loss from growing into a big one, you have to be able to admit when you're wrong, and pull the plug. Cutting losses short is one of the surest earmarks of successful traders.

It's often difficult to give up on a trade because of our perception of the market's endless potential for gain. If our stock (or currency, commodity, or whatever's being traded) is down a point or two, there's always the possibility that it will not only reverse its direction and recover those points but that it'll also increase beyond our break-even point and turn our loss into a profit. Thus, we hold out hope, because it could happen. In this manner so many H&P traders are born – hoping and praying that the trade will somehow turn around. It only takes a small dose of pragmatism injected here to come back to the realization that there will be other opportunities. And as long as we cling to that H&P mindset, our money remains unavailable for of those other opportunities when they avail themselves.

But winning can also be a dangerous event if you give way to your ego. You've heard the old saying, "Success breeds success." Winning builds upon itself; that's what we've all been taught. And in most areas of life, it's a great philosophy to have; but in trading, it's not necessarily true. A big win can give you a false sense of power over the market, a feeling of omnipotence. It can make you feel as if you've beat the market, which puts you in an adversarial frame of mind, so that winning again – and, ultimately, being right again – becomes your goal. But remember, you won't beat the odds; and no matter how successful you become, it's very likely that you'll be making many more losing trades than winning ones.

Controlling your ego is probably one of the hardest things that you will ever have to do, but to become a successful trader you must set yourself to do it. One method of controlling it is to learn to keep an open mind, to be flexible and let the market lead the way.

Keep an open mind

An open mind – which is synonymous with mental flexibility – is a common strong point of successful traders. To more clearly illustrate this quality, let's take a look at two different traders.

Trader Jim has an open, flexible mind. He approaches the market each day free of any and all expectations. He observes various market indicators to get a feel for what the market might do today. He keeps abreast of the news and tunes in to any speech that the powers that be might be making, but his whole direction is wrapped up in the attitude of 'let's wait and see what the market does.' And when the market invariably leads the way, he follows. If it heads down, and the security that he's trading trends downward, he goes short. If it trends upward, he goes long. If he can't discern any trend at all, he stays on the sidelines and waits for a trend to appear. When he makes a trade, she sets his stops and lets his profits run. If the security reverses and triggers a stop, he exits the trade without compunction and waits for the next setup. Jim doesn't really care about being personally right or wrong, and things aren't clouded or jaded for him. He moves into and out of market positions with ease and without remorse, cutting any losses short to make himself both mentally and physically available to grasp the next opportunity that comes along.

Trader Tom, on the other hand, has a closed, rigid mind with opinions about the market that may as well be chiseled in stone. He's already decided that the big speech will have a negative impact on the market, so he sits on the sidelines. He remains there as the market climbs (because it has already discounted the speech's negative comments in a minor correction the day before, but Tom didn't know that because he doesn't really keep a watchful eye). When he finally decides to jump on the bandwagon of his favorite stock, which is trending unmistakably upward, he sells on a minor downtick after a one-point gain because he still believes the market is headed for a fall and so misses the subsequent five-point rise in the stock. When the stock tops out and heads down on an intraday swing, he doesn't even think of shorting it because he believes that the only way to trade is to go long. And what does he do on a losing trade? He hangs on to it, of course, while his losses mount because he 'knows' that the stock will finally recover and give him back all his losses and more.

Mental flexibility allows you to see the market clearly and go where it takes you. It keeps you from trying to control the market (because you can't) or second-guess it (ditto, again!). Mental flexibility arises from a thorough understanding of the markets, which you get can only obtain with much study and practice, and from letting go of your assumptions and beliefs about the market and instead go where the market takes you. Relinquishing ourselves in that fashion is not an easy thing to do, however. By nature we typically trade our beliefs about the market, and once we've made up our minds about those beliefs, we're not likely to change them. Getting rid of those biases and letting go of the assumptions and beliefs that bound the mind are two important steps on the road to successful trading.

Mental Agility

An agile mind is closely akin to an open and flexible mind, but it's not the same thing. You may be open and flexible but still require a lot of pondering and thoughtful reflection to arrive at a decision. This might make you a shrewd investor but a terrible day trader. A day trader must be able to absorb and quickly analyze an abundance of rapidly changing data.

Can a person develop mental agility? Perhaps not. The best day traders seem to have come from careers that required quick, flexible minds. These people are used to thinking on their feet and responding quickly to the changing conditions around them, such as pilots or salespeople. Doctors, according to one professional trader, make the worst traders. Although a doctor must have an open mind to let the patient's symptoms lead the way, they are generally so accustomed to being right that they find it immensely difficult to admit to being wrong.

Patience

Patience is one of the less heralded qualities of a successful trader; indeed, it's probably one of mankind's most underrated virtues. It creates the ability to wait for the most opportune circumstances before you act. Patience allows you to refrain from overtrading. It's not easily developed, but at the same time it's not really a matter of 'either you have it or you don't,' either. A well-thought-out trading plan – along with the discipline to follow it – can greatly facilitate its development.

A passion for the market

Having a passion for the market – indeed, a love of the game itself – is also ingrained in the makeup of successful traders. They're very keen for and enjoy greatly what they do and can't imagine doing anything else. This type of passion might appear to be in direct conflict with self-discipline, but upon closer examination it's quite the contrary. Passion shows itself to be the fuel that propels the trader to learn the market inside and out. It's the energy that they draw on to effect the mental changes necessary to become a great at what they do. And it spawns the resilience necessary to recover from losses and, more importantly, to learn from them.

To be a successful trader, you're going to need practical knowledge of the markets and a well-thought-out trading plan, but the psychological demands of trading should be explored before you make any commitment to a career in day trading. Preparing yourself for these psychological challenges is the most important thing that you can do. It should indeed take precedence over market insight, trading styles, finding currencies or stocks, or memorizing trading rules.

As a matter of fact, trading rules are simply meaningless platitudes unless you have a grasp of the psychology behind them. Transforming the atmosphere of your mind regarding trading can be done concurrently with studying the nuts and bolts of trading. Just don't neglect it or you may end up in the 80 percent losing arena of failed traders. Because developing the right mental attitude is of paramount importance in your journey toward highly becoming a successful day trader

 

[PipStar]

The question is, what traits make a sucessful trader? What traits make a successful poker player? Please explain how the 2 would be completely different. You said the skills are not similar, so lets hear them!
[/I]

One can spend a lot of time pointing out what skills look similar between a trader and a poker player but I think it will prove nothing.

Fact: There is no professional poker player that has made it to become a successful professional trader.

The chances of success at becoming a professional trader are the same for a poker player as for other occupation. That's because trading is a completely different ball game from whichever job you do for a living.

 

[Shakone]

One can spend a lot of time pointing out what skills look similar between a trader and a poker player but I think it will prove nothing.

Fact: There is no professional poker player that has made it to become a successful professional trader.

The chances of success at becoming a professional trader are the same for a poker player as for other occupation. That's because trading is a completely different ball game from whichever job you do for a living.

I don't think poker helps that much. I tend to fall on the side, that although different skills have some common elements, it's very difficult to be great in any skill unless you dedicate a long period of time solely to the activity. Jumping around and doing many different things will make you a jack of all trades and master of none.

But I'm not sure there are no poker players who became good traders. I'd imagine the real transferrable skills, are the ones that all people who succeed in any discipline have. Ed Thorp (not poker but blackjack) seemed to make the transition to trading rather well.

 

[ffsear]

One can spend a lot of time pointing out what skills look similar between a trader and a poker player but I think it will prove nothing.

Fact: There is no professional poker player that has made it to become a successful professional trader.

The chances of success at becoming a professional trader are the same for a poker player as for other occupation. That's because trading is a completely different ball game from whichever job you do for a living.

How ridiculous. There are millions of traders and poker players out there. How an earth can you make a statement like that and claim it to be fact? I myself know 2 people who work from home playing poker poker and the stock marks!

One of the traders interviewed in "The new markets wizzards" was a pro poker player who became a trader. Blair Hull i think his name was.

and what about this? Wall Street Trading Firms Recruiting Poker Players | Poker Guru Blog


or this? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...er-wins-446-000-at-world-series-of-poker.html

 

[ffsear]

How ridiculous. There are millions of traders and poker players out there. How an earth can you make a statement like that and claim it to be fact? I myself know 2 people who work from home playing poker poker and the stock marks!

One of the traders interviewed in "The new markets wizzards" was a pro poker player who became a trader. Blair Hull i think his name was.

and what about this? Wall Street Trading Firms Recruiting Poker Players | Poker Guru Blog


or this? Former Derivatives Trader Wins $446,000 at World Series of Poker - Bloomberg

or this? Phil Hellmuth - Stock Trader vs Poker Player - YouTube

 

[Jason Rogers]

Hi,

I am a 31 year old guy who has been playing poker professionally for the past six years. Prior to this I was a sales manager in the States.

I am certainly green around the ears when it comes to trading itself but the similarities between poker and trading seem quite extensive. Part of being a poker player has included making smart decisions quickly under pressure and employing short and long term strategic thinking.

I am now looking to get into a firm as a trader. I have looked up firms like Schnieders, but it seems like they are not the right places to start. If anyone has any advice or tips then that would be great!

Thanks,

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Great thread! I love poker as a hobby, but I can definitely understand someone not wanting to do it full time. One of my colleagues who plays at a weekly poker game I host is a former pro. He even cashed highly in a few big tournaments, but he got tired of the huge swings in his bankroll.

I think you could definitely parlay your poker experience into getting a job with a trading firm, particularly when you combine that with your experience as a sales manager. Not all shops would go for it. Some only want quants with advanced degrees or ivy league/oxbridge grads. But others would give you consideration, particularly if those in charge of hiring can relate to your background. You should also network with your fellow poker pros. Some of them must know people in the City to get your foot in the door.

Best of luck!

Jason