wot happened next? No:5

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barjon mate... can you put us out of our misery? weve basically got 4 pages of diddly squat here... and it doesnt look like anyone else is going to have a crack at forecasting the events that are to follow...

lets not have this thread get bloated with crap that others might have to wade thru in the future... some might enjoy pontificating endlessly but.. on the other hand... some of us would rather we just cut the bs and hot air... and got to the heart of the matter... way too much talk and too little substance... cheers
 
welcome greenwelly :D

You'll have to be patient since I've promised to give time for people who may want to participate - prob late week-end. You may have seen from earlier ones that some analyses take a lot of work to prepare.

As for the chat, I've said I'll draw the wot happeneds into a single thread shorn of everything bar the various analyses. If people stay interested I'll probably have to do that in stages of, say, 5 at a time to avoid an overlong thread :(

good trading

jon
 
It looks like the selling pressure from the gap down was absorbed and support held.
I think its gonna range a bit then supply will take over.
My 2 cents worth.

:cheesy:
 

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carlosd said:
It looks like the selling pressure from the gap down was absorbed and support held.
I think its gonna range a bit then supply will take over.
My 2 cents worth.

:cheesy:

As I said on a few post above.but I didn't paint a chart.
 
GreenWelly said:
barjon mate... can you put us out of our misery? weve basically got 4 pages of diddly squat here... and it doesnt look like anyone else is going to have a crack at forecasting the events that are to follow...

lets not have this thread get bloated with crap that others might have to wade thru in the future... some might enjoy pontificating endlessly but.. on the other hand... some of us would rather we just cut the bs and hot air... and got to the heart of the matter... way too much talk and too little substance... cheers
Welcome to the site. You sound very impatient and demanding. In case no one has ever mentioned this to you, these are not faculties that augur well for any trader, ever.....:cheesy: ...forcing does not work, however delivered, whether in the vernacular or otherwise, I respectfully and sincerely submit.
 
cheers mate it is a pleasure to be here :)

i am demanding when exceptional standards are set.. i make no apology for that... from my experience some individuals cannot handle these demands when they are made.. some individuals claim to have very high standards and then fail to meet them.. infact they fall abyssmally short of meeting them... as this becomes obvious to all those around they become vulnerable and exposed... and thereafter are rarely seen again... probably because they know the game is up and the smokescreen that exists to mask their existance has gone... i used to give these individuals chances to prove their worth, but i no longer do so as it is an exercise in futility..

i only have patience for substance .. i have little time for talk... when a high standard is promised but what is given is of a sub par standard... well.. i naturally have a good old chuckle, cut my losses and get on my merry way... :)

take it easy and enjoy what remains of the summer... :p
 
Holy Moly, Socrates just got BURNED!!!

Green Welly, congrats for that.

I think out of socrates over 3k posts, you can count on a single hand how many actually have something worthwhile to say. Wait I may have mistated that, I meant to say if a person actually had no hands at all you could then count on their non existent limbs or nubs how many of his posts brought any relevance to the subject matter.

On the other hand (no pun intended), if you are stumped (ditto) for a very large or difficult word he is the magician to turn to. He will pull a dictionary out of his magical wizard hat and bestow upon you a abnormally large word that is sure to stump the average joe.

Glad to have you on board Welly, your post was good for the best laugh of the month. Congrats.

You win a prize and that prize is waking up to some more incoherent ramblings from Socrates in the morning. Surely he will spill his morning TEA on his 20 year old sticky keyboard.

Enjoy!

Stan

GreenWelly said:
cheers mate it is a pleasure to be here :)

i am demanding when exceptional standards are set.. i make no apology for that... from my experience some individuals cannot handle these demands when they are made.. some individuals claim to have very high standards and then fail to meet them.. infact they fall abyssmally short of meeting them... as this becomes obvious to all those around they become vulnerable and exposed... and thereafter are rarely seen again... probably because they know the game is up and the smokescreen that exists to mask their existance has gone... i used to give these individuals chances to prove their worth, but i no longer do so as it is an exercise in futility..

i only have patience for substance .. i have little time for talk... when a high standard is promised but what is given is of a sub par standard... well.. i naturally have a good old chuckle, cut my losses and get on my merry way... :)

take it easy and enjoy what remains of the summer... :p
 
ratio 2 to 1 Socrates to mr marcus

Socrates,

I noticed you have posted 15 times in this 5 page thread and out of those 15 postings you have mentioned Mr Marcus and how you agree with him or how he is going to reply to his original post - 7 times.

(Referenced for pure enjoyment -

1. In every respect I agree with MM and his synopsis above.

2. Matt, I am not going to spoil the analysis Mr Marcus is preparing, to explain this chart in detail.

3. It is very clear indeed...it is screaming at you...but if Mr Marcus does not explain it in his commentary ....I will....you just have to wait.

4. I confined my comments to the second last bar and the toptail on it and its implications but not all the full reasoning leading up to it, so as not to spoil the post Mr Marcus is about to make

5. I don't exactly know whether Mr Marcus is going to explain it the way I would.

6. I am not going to make any further comment so as not to spoil MM's comments being prepared.

7. Yes, sure, but I am not saying anything beyond what I have said so far because Mr Marcus is going to post his analysis and I am not going to muddy the waters by trampling over his intent in advance of the event, nor am I going to trample over it afterwards,)

Now, 15 posts is quite excessive for one, especially when the content of a majority of them are mainly you telling people to behave or bickering back and forth like a ten year old child. That is no way for a man to act. Its a shame because I would have thought by now with age comes wisdom.

Instead of spending 50% of your posts referencing mr marcus why dont you read his initial post (this one will include noooo text....takes way too long and only just completed the last one..cheers mark j.) and realize that there may not be another post by the person you so enjoy talking about and post the answer yourself. Interesting thought eh?

Also if you do post your answer to wot happens next 5, could you please put it in terms that are easily understood by most people? There is no need to take simple terms and turn them into utter jibber jabber just for the sake of building oneself up.

I havent been around the trading world too long but from what I have read on this website I have learned quite a bit from the nuggets I can pull out of the ground when I do come across one of mr marcus posts. On top of that (if I am willing to put in the work) those posts usually make me do quite a bit of thinking.

The genius behind mr marcus posts are not only the obvious level of true knowledge that he possesses but the ability to sum up his thoughts about a market or chart in terms that everyone can understand. Sure they may be long sometimes, but if you dont want to take the time to truly dive into them then that choice is up to the reader. At least I dont have to spend an hour filing through the dictionary looking up words that may or may not exist.

I look forward to your "take" on this chart. I personally would give it my best shot but obviously I dont have much market knowledge/experience do to the fact that I only have 1-2 posts under the ole t2w belt. Im here to learn!

Best wishes to all,

Jonny T
 
Half Life

When and if Jon does amalgamate these WHN threads, this post I'm currently making will be a victim of the surgeon's scalpel, but for now, I think it's appropriate - or I wouldn't be taking the trouble to post it - obviously.

Jon's series of WHN has drawn some extraordinary responses. Both in terms of clear evidence of trading knowledge and expertise in some and strangely, given the obvious positive intent and superficial benefits of that intent, some very strong back-and-forth on issues quite unrelated to the primary 'exercise' from others. I have had a PM exchange with Jon on this aspect of his threads on how the most innocuous and obvious topic (a chart and wot next?) can develop some very strong discourse along a wider range outside the central theme. It was clearly a puzzle to us both. And then the answer came to me as I read this last tranche of posts this morning.

The reason this series of threads evoke such passion is that they cut right to the heart of what trading is really all about.

The ability to determine - not necessarily with a higher then 50/50 degree of probability what will most likely happen next - just the ability to determine. And I'm sure it flusters some that they haven't been able to 'do' it. But not those learning. They have no 'issue' if they find themselves unable to attempt it or to attempt it and 'fail'. They are just soaking up the posts that do provide empirical, definitive and explicit assessment of other traders' rationale and their thinking. Including those who elect to stay out of assessment for lack of specific additional information. Regardless of the correctness of those assessments that do hazard a reasonably explicated view, the thinking that has gone on behind the assessment is the real value here. Right or wrong. All those who assess or choose not to assess provide genuine insights - when provided along with their thinking. The quiet ones are the ones who are learning and staying quiet precisely so they can continue to learn the craft. And if you put yourself outside of that class in the last sentence you need to go back to school yourself. :LOL:

The ones that are really suffering are those that 'thought' they could trade or pretend they can and now, faced with the 'challenge' of proving it - if only to themselves in the privacy of their own bonce - fall short and feel bad. These are not characteristics of consistently successful traders and if you're feeling this way, you're either having a bad day or you need to address the underlying basis for feeling that way. There's no need to. Not caring is important.

Those that explain why it's going to tank and give you the technical basis for their view are right. Regardless of the eventual outcome. Those that consider it will head North along with the basis for their considerations are right. Regardless of the outcome. Those that feel there is a higher probability of short-term oscillation along with the reasons for their thinking are right. Regardless of the outcome. Those that elect not to make any assessment based on the lack of one or more pieces of information are right. Period. They'll never take an ill-considered trade. (There may be some of them in that last set that will never take any trade, but that's a separate issue).

It's precisely the basis for the difference in views that provides the market for us to trade. Been said before I know. They are all valid perspectives.

The rightness or wrongness of those who assess is not key. Over the long run with correct money management you can make a living with a 50/50 hit rate :LOL: The real value is in the thinking of the various bods that post - yes, ALL of them (yes, yes, even THAT one!).

Jon, you've either accidentally stumbled on a topic that's going to bring a lot of people to a higher level of trading (or perhaps a higher level of thinking?) or you're a deliberately self-disguised genius trying to nurture your flock to trading excellence.

And before anyone asks...

.... I wouldn't have been long from the big black line myself, but if I was advising anyone who had been long from that black line what to do:-

1. I'd ask them to explain what their exit strategy was when they went into the trade and if it was still in place. If they had ignored it or broken it - I'd tell them to stick to their trade strat at all times and exit now as a discipline. Regardless.

2. If their exit start was still unbreached I'd ask them if this particular trading strat had been producing overall profits. If it hadn't I'd suggest they ditch the strat and develop another strat. And exit now - as a kindness.

3. If their strat was a sound one and no stop had been breached or ignored I would suggest they stick with their trade.
 
Everyone has a style of trading that is peculiar to his character.

I come to a decision almost as soon as the bar completes the pattern that I am waiting for and those patterns form the basis of my trading philosophy.

Analysising (or agonizing over) a share for hours on end is incomprehensible to me but I concede that it is positive enjoyment for an analyst. So be it and I respect them and their points of view, providing they are not too long.

However, am I more successful as a trader than the more academical types? Probably not, but I am a happy trader, which means that I must be making something :)

Split
 
hi barjon -

Enjoying these puzzles, thanks.

Chart shows a hole-in-the-wall gap (courtesy Alan Farley) - gap down immediately after significant high of established uptrend. These often signal reversal into downtrend. So I would get out of the long asap after the gap. Farley does not suggest shorting immediately the gap appears but rather wait for the rebound, often to a Fibonacci level, then go short when the rebound turns south. Of course, if it never does turn south, you would remain flat until the price breached the recent all-time high, signalling resumption of the uptrend, then go long again.

A lesson I regularly forget is that its almost always cheaper to exit and re-enter than stay with a loser.

Tom
 
heres my noobie take on it, grey line shows alternate path.. i'm a little worried b/c i saw mrmarcus's post already and i think his chart has infected my brain, so i was not sure whether i should even bother.. however i tried to be specific about some of the events. of course that makes the probability of being correct even less, but the exercise has some value. be gentle with me pls, cuz the market never is. :)
 

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Price goes down, probably

I have no real idea what will happen next! When looking at any chart, I like to put forward an argument that is both bullish and bearish. If one argument is much stronger than the other, then I look to enter a trade accordingly, based upon what price does and which of the two scenarios plays out.

As with WOT 4, the chart is in a clear uptrend, although it doesn’t look strong. Jon’s entry candle is pretty much the only really healthy looking bull candle in the latest move up. Subsequent candles are small and the price closes in the bottom half of the day’s high/low range. The uptrend is still alive - just - but it’s in a pretty poor state. The penultimate candle, with its long upper shadow looks very ominous indeed, and so it proved to be. If I were still in this trade, I would place a stop just below the third green line down, as price may find support here. In theory, this would enable me to exit at break even at worst and, possibly, even with a small profit. If price does drop initially and find support here, I will want to see three things happen to convince me that there is still life left in the uptrend. Failure of any one of these would suggest a possible trend change and certainly indicate an exit from the trade . . .

1. If the price ‘bounces’ off the third green line to create a higher swing low, I would then look for it to progress up through the blue trendline and beyond the high (and open) of the last candle – marked by the heavy green line. If price finds resistance at these two points and turns back south – effectively following the red line on the chart – then it will have made a new lower swing high, which could mark the start of a new downtrend.

2. If price does regain its lost ground and move back above the trendline and take out the last high/open, the next objective would be to fill the gap between the last candle and penultimate candle. This would provide some reassurance that the sudden large gap down was just a ‘blip’ in proceedings - an overreaction to some event or other - and that normal trading activity is now resumed.

3. Lastly, to be completely convinced that all is well and that the uptrend is back on track, I will look for a shallow retracement on low volume confirming the validity of the up trendline. If all three conditions are met, I might consider adding to my position at this point. Lastly, a move up to new highs and a higher swing high will then need to be made.

The flip side of this coin is, on balance, more probable IMO. As stated earlier, the trend appears to be faltering. I suspect that the traders buying over the last few weeks are what mr. Marcus would call ‘weak hands’. They are buying off the pro’s who accumulated their holding long ago near the start of the chart. As a rule of thumb, I assume that pro’s accumulate the bulk of their holding at or near the start of a trend and not at the latter stages of one. In fact, this is the point at which the pro's seek to sell (in an uptrend) to the handful of late players (weak hands) who think – or hope and pray – that there is still life left in the trend.

Clearly lots of traders have been tempted to buy during the final candle, evidenced by the massive volume and the fact that price closed way above the half way mark. There may be a continuation of this buying pressure over the next few days, and traders who opened positions at Jon’s earlier entry point will be buoyed up by this action and may even add to their positions. If price then retraces on low volume (following the dotted blue line), then it ought to find support at or around the juxtaposition of the heavy green line and the blue up trendline. Failure to do so would see stops being hit left, right and centre, day traders piling into new short positions and a likely waterfall in price, much harder and faster than the red line down on the chart suggests.
Tim.
 

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Hi Timsk,

Your first sentence says it for all of us. The fact that there has been a sudden failure of the upward trend of this share reminds me, somewhat, of what happened to FT100 from April 24th. I said that I'd, hopefully, make a profit but I certainly would not hold my breath too long on the next opening but I might give it until I've made a loss of 5 points. I think that it is better to be out and looking for something else. I would look on this as trade that has gone wrong---out.

The problem is not taking, luckily, a small loss but of hanging around and wasting time when other shares are giving better chart signals.

Split
 
You wouldn't be in this trade unless someone had a gun to your head. But if you were....

The price has been rising over the last 14 bars prior to the gap on relatively low and more importantly, decreasing volume. Decreasing support for the current trend, for now. Bearish. We don't know why the gap down occurred nor do we particularly care. The volume of the last bar is very high and the action within that bar (open to close) is in the upper part of the bar. The low of the bar also rests on potential new Support (just above the black line Jon has drawn). Bullish-ish.

Regardless of why you'd be in the situation anyway, I'd propose setting a stop just below the low of the last bar and wait for the gap to close and then either (a) exit your position if low volume confirmed the end of the current trend or (b) stay with if increasing volume signifies renewed interest. The only other caveat would be to wait no longer that 5 bars to se if the gap will close. If's going to flatline, you're already riding a dog of a trade, don't make it a long drawn out affair.
 
just a bit longer, toro :cheesy:

you'll see from a few posts ago that mr.marcus is going to give us a piece before i draw back the curtain.

good trading

jon

ps: glad you're enjoying them
 
The pattern barjon posted, I have seen this pattern many times, I trade off them intraday. Basically it will rise, only to sell off again. classic pattern..

Anytime you see weakness which happens quickly, get ready to sell on the next rally, 85% they work. "great pattern" .

I don't know what chart barjon have posted, but I tell you this, it will rally and sucker everyone in, only to fall and take the low out, where everyone had placed they stops, thinking the long was the trade to be in. only to be fooled by another quick reaction down,
 
Mark,

Don't you ever sleep?!

Once again a very full analysis that I need to print, read and digest over several hours or more likely days. Many thanks indeed.

pogle
 
Sorry the answer to this one has been a bit delayed , but here we are now and I hope you can all remember where it started and what you thought about it :) .

Many thanks again to all who contributed.

First a comment relating to mr.marcus’ initial post of his final three (and thanks mark for such a thorough analysis - spot on as we’ve come to expect. Highly impressive and very valuable to everyone who aspires to understand the market). This all started as a bit of fun on an idle afternoon, but it’s great to see so much interest generated and I do think these little exercises can be all things to all people. Those who want to use them to help gain a thorough understanding of the market through to forward projection can, as can those who want spot potential upcoming trades, as can those who want to consider how they would plan such trades and, as in this case, exit from existing ones. I am happy to continue with them until interest wanes.

So, on to the finale. A lot of you thought it a strange long entry point for our trader (shame that, it would have been a good 3 bar retracement and a potential continuation where I would have made an additional long had I been in it already) but most saw the writing on the wall. As it transpired there was no opportunity to get out at a much better price and the best course was to exit when it came back to the opening level after a marginal attempt to go higher if that is indeed what happened the next day (I don’t have the intraday chart in front of me).

You will recall that our trader had decided to exit if the price dropped below the low of the shooting star type high candle but then froze, shocked by the gap. I suppose the moral of this story is to run like a thief for the exit in such circumstances (the gap opening price gave the best exit of all) and ask questions later. Of course, you might see very good reasons to do otherwise but, if it’s only a question of “it might recover”, then “might” isn’t good enough.

good trading

jon

ps: added a second chart more matched to the opening one
 

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