wot happened next? no:2

Jon,
I'm not sure what
"Last point is the hammer type near doji. Such candles are often talked about as reversal candles - they are not." actually means.
If you are saying that the widespread belief that a doji following a series of mono directional candles does NOT indicate a reversal, I would strongly agree. It merely indicates indecision/balance, (sometimes not even that - but I haven't got time to explain that now - the market is about to open), in the time window of the candle.
In order to "test" the validity of the theory people look at charts to see if there was a doji at a pivot point.
Wrong. That is taking the short cut and is a bad error. Those people never see all the dojis in the middle of trends because they only look in retrospect at the pivots.
Richard
 
Mr. Charts said:
Jon,
.
..................If you are saying that the widespread belief that a doji following a series of mono directional candles does NOT indicate a reversal, I would strongly agree. It merely indicates indecision/balance, (sometimes not even that - but I haven't got time to explain that now - the market is about to open), in the time window of the candle.

Richard


Richard

er, yes - that's what i was trying to say. ie: that the belief that a doji indicates a reversal is not right.

jon
 
My public recognition of valuable contributions made by Mr Marcus and Barjon

Mr Marcus

Many have already given their thanks to you and I will repeat those sentiments. I also thank Barjon for originating (is that a proper verb ?) this thread, and all the positive contributors.

A thread like this is valuable because it brings together several styles of analysis - fundamental, technical, PV, indicators etc. We can compare different ways of treating the same subject.

I have missed out twice on presenting my own analysis of these charts, although I have seen plenty in the analyses given that I would agree with.

I salute those who are brave enough to stick out their necks and take a considerable amount of time analysing these things for the benefit of all of us.

I have also conveyed my thanks to Mark in PM and hope to join him sometime on one of his famous trading curries

Charlton
 
Last edited:
There have been a lot of posts over what was, really, a piece of cake exercise. See my post 5. :p

Split
 
Splitlink said:
There have been a lot of posts over what was, really, a piece of cake exercise. See my post 5. :p

Split

split

always assuming you hadn't been frightened out by that hammer-doji :cheesy:

as we've found on other threads we can both make money in different directions on the same instrument if we're careful ;)

good trading

jon
 
Mr. Marcus

To understand your analysis "better", could you share your defenition of what you mean with the term "weak hands".

I roughly use the following:
1-relatively low risk tolerance and/or relative small time-frame. Even in the dominant direction you have these traders;
2-Taking position against current dominant direction;
3-Players playing the dominant direction baling out (to) early.

Regards
Superfly




mr.marcus said:
ok then...lets pretend elvis left his quarter pounder and had to enter the buidling one more time...then hes off to work down the chip shop........im in the poo if either of the brown lines occur on the chart....loads of work to do ...so my last analysis ...this one im also reverse engineering ...from the swing low ive marked ..to the pullback low..i would consider this to be about 30%-40% retracement of the overall up move..this would be typical for this style top...ok lets rock....as you can see by my usual shoddy typing style...i had a numpty type it up for me while we analyised it tonight as a team... :D

1

First of all – As well as forward engineering I decided to also show reverse engineering as the market has to come from SOMEWHERE to begin. This allows us to forward engineer with a greater degree of accuracy with a fuller picture.this is point ONE , the first question is, do we consider the hard left edge (of this chart) to actually be the bottom from where the following price action derived from? The answer here is NO due to lack of volume and comparing the closing action at the highs the price action is not that significant to make us believe that it is the base of the market. If we also view the first two legs within the orange lines these both have the feel that we have just come from consolidation as these are typical of breakout legs. So therefore I would conclude that we have come from a mid point consolidation and prior to this we have had approximately the same depth of movement as we had after this consolidation. See initial set of YELLOW LINES on chart.

2

Having already mentioned the previous two breakout legs we can also note that the duration was short, we can say YES that buyers were driving the market higher, but we can also note that the demand was NOT that sustainable. We can also note that the third leg is diminishing in velocity and the 4th leg more so, showing even weaker demand. The fact that none of the legs were at all sustainable leads to the conclusion that the upside of the market was derived more from the shorters within the pullbacks (in between black lines) having to close positions. Consequently we know that there is not that much fresh buying interest in the market at this stage, but also the market gives the feel that as we are churning positions and pushing higher for a reason,maybe a major number.

3

Note the first horizontal white line

WE previously stated that demand is weak, we can also now note that at the two points marked with the white dashes, aggressive counter action coming into the market, however note that the attached volume is still low and in no way represents a major exchange of positions involving professionals. There fore we have to view this action as a fake double top, temporary in its nature and its objective to attract shorts into the market and to shake out any existing weak long positions. Note also the typical divergence shown weakening volume on the test

4

The break out candles from the dbl top. we can see that in fact volume is actually picking up and increasing on the second candle from the top, this signifies that any selling is being met with aggressive buying by the pros, as a successful breakout should be accompanied with low volume due to a lack of demand. This is denoted by the PINK diagonal line. Note the pink dash is the test of the supply which we can see is severely reduced

5

Following the aggressive buying and drying of supply we have an up leg which moves on low volume. To some this is weakness, in fact this is a sign of no supply in the market at that time. Note that it makes the same resistance level as before, creating the illusion of a triple top. a deliberate ploy of course.

6

this is interesting for the following reason, the volume attached is relatively large, this is solely because weak hands have considered this to be a triple top in nature. Any selling is met with aggressive buying, hence the high volume. The second candle in the sequence, lower volume, signifying no more selling in the market and again this is met by buying , the prices also could, nt hold the lows. Note that if we handt made resistance ,the triple,we would have expected a supply test with aprox half this volume.

7

Having already concluded that the dbl top and triple top were fake due to the fact that we had not considered that there to have been significant exchanging, noted by lack of volume at the highs and approaching the highs, the expectation at this point ,having now shaken out weak longs and secured weak short hands into the market, is a breakout to the upside. However, the extent of the breakout was quite exceptional in nature. Now we have already pointed out the demand was weak in the market in the prior upmoves ,and the proceeding shake and fake has produced energy to the upside, but no where near to this extent, we have therefore to conclude that another factor was involved in creating these exceptional levels of demand and price movement. This could be one of a number of factors. The most obvious being key levels and news. I would conclude that as we are aware that the price has not ventured into these levels before that we must have hit a significant dollar value for example, (100 dollars per share etc). This would account for the nature of the price movement and attached volume. Leading into this initial break pros would mark the price through the previous resistance to start the sequence. My estimated key level is noted by the light blue line. Volume attached to this exceptional breakout candle is still high, signifying there is aggressive pro selling within this candle. Of course knowing that the whole of the previous move was built on weak and weakening demand it would be foolish not to at least cover their long positions at this point.

8

Considering the exceptional nature of the previous day, it should be amazing that weak hands still bought the market and this considering that we had gapped higher. This is possibly contrived to bring in final demand using another key number. The two candles and the level of price movement will leave weak hands exceptionally vulnerable in this market. As we can see within the two black lines the pros sold this isolated weak final demand. We are now in a situation where the weak hands are grouped,vulnerable an imbalance which the pros can take full advantage of. However due to the duration of this top I do not consider that the pros haven't had time enough to accumulate sufficient short positions to bring the market down to its original base. This is unlike a heads and shoulders, which allows at least three points of accumulation within a reasonable price range, allowing for purchase at a good average price. Therefore I consider this to be an opportunity to short the market but the whole nature of this move is to shake weak long hands from the market and to fake in weak short hands, ultimately allowing re accumulation at lower prices.

9
From the top we had a velocity shake out,easy to achieve due to little if any new demand left and very vulnerable weak hand longs held at extremes.The second white line signifies another illusion created, a dbl bottom. We can see that the volume attached is not high. This signifies pros covering short positions, these positions being given to weak shorts. The double bottom would sometimes yield new weak longs, which would then be exposed within the market due to the fact that new accumulation has yet to take place. This is noted by the light green V. However this did not occur so we were unable to create demand to create supply so we could re accumulate. So this process is to still be achieved.there is still great opportunity for pros to shake longs,create fake dbs,stop hunt at key levels and also to create false breaks of support.

10

Note the orange line, the break out candle and the following candle. We can see that the volume here has increased, this shows more aggression within the market by the pros. However as noted by the chart we have significant key levels below and these are ideal situations to stop out any weak longs and to fake any shorts into the market. is this enough volume at this point to represent concluded accumaltion..nope.as the supply also doesnt look that strong in this market,we have to encourage it down,this can be done by creating more fake dbs,see the white line at key support.we can then bring in some longs,on the wrong side off the market,aggressive sell into them,not much would be needed and force them out creating supply.

11

We can see by my price action (Marked YELLOW) that I then consider an inverse heads and shoulder to lead to the opportunity for new accumulation.noted are also approximate volume levels which i would consider to show strong enough buying to move and sustain the market at this point. we have now concluded the shake and fake cycle of the market and good value has been obtained for new longs. The following up leg would then commence with lower volume showing a lack of supply within the market. We would then be able to use weak shorts closing to help the market proceed towards previous highs.

12

The final point, I would be looking for reactions within the red zone,particularly aggressive selling .also looking for signs of new demand coming into the market out of any pullbacks,above and beyond what i would feel were weak shorts having to close. If the market proceeds through this band then the likelihood of taking out the the high is very probable.


.....to conclude ,believe it or not this is just a snapshot of what is there.i would like to add that every bar tells a story and withing every bar also a story and so on.there is no such thing as noise,just a lack of understanding.this is also no such thing as an uninteresting bar,again lack of comprehension.volume and price are what they are ,they work symbiotic-ally,cant have one without the other.volume can lead price ,this can be self fulling,lot of people looking for them spikes...but mainly price creates volume.but of course understanding volume,who,why and how,the battles,the exchanges,the manipulations ..all attached to the price movement...can help you to see the probably scenarios before they occur....then the price and volume merely confirm your already probable conclusions.when people tell you to wait for a lower high etc ..at a top...their basically asking for more confirmation...and what their saying is t personally they need more information..more confirmation because they dont understand the market well enough to take it earlier.the more you comprehend others actions .. even before they do.the sooner you can take a signal and maximise your profit ..with no greater risk.risk is inverse to market knowledge.there is no substitute for knowledge...and no substitute for hard work and endeavour which will take you there.the market cannot be formalised,know yourself .know others and do your best to remain humble even when success comes.for if you dont an almighty fall is just around the corner.

cheers mark j :cool:
 
Last edited:
superfly said:
Mr. Marcus

To understand your analysis "better", could you share your defenition of what you mean with the term "weak hands".

I roughly use the following:
1-relatively low risk tolerance and/or relative small time-frame. Even in the dominant direction you have these traders;
2-Taking position against current dominant direction;
3-Players playing the dominant direction baling out (to) early.

Regards
Superfly

Weak Hands According to Investopedia:
1. The intention of futures contract holders not to receive delivery of the underlying.

2. Retail traders in the forex market who abide by the conventional wisdom that when a pattern is broken, get out.


1. Futures contract holders with weak hands are generally considered to be small speculators without the financial resources associated with the delivery and storage.

2. For example, retail traders with weak hands would place a stop at the bottom of a double bottom or at the top of a double top and once the pattern is broken, they would automatically be stopped out. Conversely, dealer and institutional traders will exploit this behavior by staying in once the pattern is broken, forcing the weak hands out before allowing the price to change direction and the pattern to correct itself.
 
Working hypothesis

When stocks are low in their cycle, shares move from weak hands to strong hands. Strong hands are accumulating shares; weak hands are still liquidating losing positions.

This suggests that the buy-sell cycle of strong hands (SH) leads that of weak-handed traders (WH), as shown in the chart below.


Cycle Low: After the market has declined, a new SH buying cycle begins while the news and fundamentals are still poor. WH selling continues.

Uptrend: Once WH begin to buy, the combined buying cycles of SH and WH create a new rising trend.

Cycle High: As the upward trend matures, SH begin to take profits while WH are still buying enthusiastically. The market's trend is strong and background fundamentals are positive. Late-cycle buyers are entering the market for the first time, and their eager buying offers SH plenty of takers for offered shares.

Downtrend: SH have unloaded the substantial portion of their shares, and the market begins to sag. WH become net sellers but find few buyers, and prices decline. SH sell their remaining shares or sell short, adding to the downward pressure. The combined selling cycles of both SH and WH produces a declining trend.

This analysis demonstrates two market types: 1) trending markets ; and 2) turbulent markets.

Trending markets occur when both SH and WH are in synch, when both groups are either net buyers or net sellers. Turbulent markets occur at cycle extremes when, as a result of offsetting cycles, SH and WH are at cross-purposes. The chart below shows both trending and turbulent markets.



Experienced traders know that the surest profits come during trending markets. Whether rising or falling, "the trend", as the old saw goes, "is your friend". Trading the trend is like paddling with the current.

Turbulent markets, on the other hand, are difficult even for wizened pros. These markets are like white water rapids. During these markets, the action of most individual stocks becomes choppy, while others trend upward and still others trend down. Navigating these waters successfully requires both skill and nerve, and capsizing is a real threat, especially for the novice trader.

There are four distinctive stages of the buy-sell cycle:



1.) Accumulation
shares move from weak hands to strong hands;

2.) Markup
price trends upward;

3.) Distribution
shares move from strong hands to weak hands;

4.) Liquidation (Markdown)
price trends downward.
 
Last edited:
superfly said:
[...]2. For example, retail traders with weak hands would place a stop at the bottom of a double bottom or at the top of a double top and once the pattern is broken, they would automatically be stopped out. Conversely, dealer and institutional traders will exploit this behavior by staying in once the pattern is broken, forcing the weak hands out before allowing the price to change direction and the pattern to correct itself.
What a load of todger.

I know you're only quoting a third-party source SF, but just think it through.

If you were a pro and had the power to write a bunch of TA books about 'classic' chart patterns (and if you like, the psychological behaviour evident behind these patterns) and get the weak hands/numpties to believe it and then, when they place their stops just where you want them or behave just the way you want them to - what happens next?

The price/volume structure would change to make those chart patterns no longer self-fulfilling prophecies and they wouldn't occur - and the numpties obviously wouldn't trade them (if they didn't exist. (editor's note: Where the hell did numpties come from anyway?)

A H&S wouldn't be a H&S if the pros just carried on taking out the weak shorts with their stops just a tad above the right shoulder. It wouldn't look like a H&S anymore - it would look like a flag/consolidation. Or maybe a reversal. But it definitely would not be a H&S.

Lord! There is so much tosh talked about this.

Sure the pros know what the weak hands are most likely to be doing, and they will capitalise on this knowledge - so would you. But for anyone to suggest it is as cut and dried as some make out is nonsense. The pros have to work at it too.

What the pros have to do it make it 'look like' a H&S before making their move. And when the weak hands come back to review their losing trades (those that bother) they'll wonder why they ever thought it was a H&S in the first place.... :LOL:
 
Last edited:
TheBramble said:
What a load of todger.

:LOL:

Yes, I caught that quote from Superfly, too. It got me thinking because I use chart patterns a lot (don't we all) and I have been looking through Sharescope today, after what he said. There are plenty of double bottoms that seem to have worked well.

I, also, had a close look at my hands to see if they were weakening, but cannot see any trembling just yet. :D

Split
 
Socrates and Bramble thanks.

When I look at the example (Chart below):

6

this is interesting for the following reason, the volume attached is relatively large, this is solely because weak hands have considered this to be a triple top in nature. Any selling is met with aggressive buying, hence the high volume. The second candle in the sequence, lower volume, signifying no more selling in the market and again this is met by buying , the prices also could, nt hold the lows. Note that if we handt made resistance ,the triple,we would have expected a supply test with aprox half this volume.

I get the impression that (one of the) corner stones of mr. marcus analysis is his tangible and detailed conceptions of what is obvious weak hand behaviour (and what is not) and how will this weak behaviour be used.

I will be reading my target market(s) and all technical analysis of charts on t2w with the aim to get a sufficient tangible answer to this.

Regards
 
Last edited:
barjon said:
Thought I’d do the next one as a new thread since the first one got a bit derailed .

With a different slant, this one again centres on the price action after a high volume, long candle event (promise something entirely different next time :cheesy: ). As I said before, these events are often followed by a move (open to close) in the opposite direction the next day. Traders planning for that would likely have gone short as the price fell back through the open the next day, if not before. Anyway, that’s all a bit bye the bye.

In this one the price had been steadily rising for some time and every high you can see on the way up was an all time high. After the hvlc event the price tried for more but fell back. It continued to fall day by day until we arrive at the cut off point where a hammer type near doji prints at the base of the long candle.

So wot happened next? And, more importantly, what trade might you be anticipating, with what entry, with what target in mind and with what stop?

Over to you - full chart comes Tuesday evening.

good trading

jon

I am buying long above the high of the last candle.
Cheers
paul
 
Makes me smile, chart patterns, We look at patterns to make a trade, whether it be head & shoulders or hammers, Think about this, who are the traders who makes these patterns we wait for, to make our trading decision. If everyone was waiting for a head & shoulder or hammer, the market would stop.....somthing to think about

In my opinion you can make money on a flick of a coin, with good (MM) money management. I know one guy who got a rubbish system, but he makes a ton of money, becuse is MM is excellent.
 
laptop1 said:
Makes me smile, chart patterns, We look at patterns to make a trade, whether it be head & shoulders or hammers, Think about this, who are the traders who makes these patterns we wait for, to make our trading decision. If everyone was waiting for a head & shoulder or hammer, the market would stop.....somthing to think about

In my opinion you can make money on a flick of a coin, with good (MM) money management. I know one guy who got a rubbish system, but he makes a ton of money, becuse is MM is excellent.

I am not sure how to interpret your email but I will assume that it is intended to be helpful and kind. And for that, I will thank you. Perhaps I should have given more consideration and respect to the original post and should have examined the earlier entries in the thread before posting my very terse reply. Perhaps I should have written pages on the psychology of the market, the market makers and the ebb and flow of money in the market as reflected in its patterns and its momentum, but I did not. I certainly meant no disrespect to the moderator who initiated this thread nor to any of the participants in the thread. But to imply that I flip a coin to trade or that I follow a rubbish trading system is a grosss generalization and perhaps somewhat presumptuous of your post. I would never try to suggest to you nor to anyone else on this board that what they deem to be important in the market is simply psychological mumbo jumbo. Ultimately, however, when all is said and done, the real answer lies in how well one does in the market over time with real money.

With that final comment I will once again apologize to the moderator of this thread and to its participants if my terse reply was disrespectful in any way. It was not intended to be an offense but if it was taken that way, please accept my apologies. With the apology, I will also bow out of this thread and continue "flipping the coin" and see how I do. Perhaps my money management will save me in spite of myself.
Best regards to all.
 
anyone who followed this thread may be interested in the way things have unfolded ...

cheers
 

Attachments

  • wot2_concluded.jpg
    wot2_concluded.jpg
    55.7 KB · Views: 360
GreenWelly said:
anyone who followed this thread may be interested in the way things have unfolded ...

cheers

GreenWelly

Thank you for posting the chart. Mr Marcus got it bang on didn't he.

Regards

bracke
 
Top