Why do so few succeed?

Glenn said:
Superfly and Socrates I agree.
It's good that Superfly has come along because he has a dfferent way with words, which may help those who cannot see the points Socrates makes.

Actually, darkhorse -- whom Superfly is quoting -- and Bertie aren't making quite the same points, other than that a lot of work is involved. And they both make the same fundamental error with regard to how people learn, perhaps because they don't fully appreciate the differences between deductive and inductive reasoning.

Everyone goes through the If Only I Had Known stage at some point or other, but they fail to understand that it likely would have made no difference at all. Which is why the books they so often recommend are simply inappropriate.

You'll also notice that there's no arrogance or disdain in the darkhorse quote but rather a sincere desire to communicate and to help. Unusual on ET, but occasionally found nonetheless.
 
new_trader said:
Would you be willing to clarify? Would you say "The Crowd" is the 97% that fails?
No, I am not saying that.

I am saying the crowd.

Inside this crowd there are many people gathered.

They have varying abilities, they have varying aspirations, they have varying reasons, they have varying faculties, they have varying propensities, they have varying objectives, they have varying interests, they have varying belief structures, they have varying reality structures, all of these in different degrees and forms, so it is a mixed bunch, not defined.
 
dbphoenix said:
And they both make the same fundamental error with regard to how people learn, perhaps because they don't fully appreciate the differences between deductive and inductive reasoning.

Im curious, could you explain?
 
dbphoenix said:
Actually, darkhorse -- whom Superfly is quoting -- and Bertie aren't making quite the same points, other than that a lot of work is involved. And they both make the same fundamental error with regard to how people learn, perhaps because they don't fully appreciate the differences between deductive and inductive reasoning.

Everyone goes through the If Only I Had Known stage at some point or other, but they fail to understand that it likely would have made no difference at all. Which is why the books they so often recommend are simply inappropriate.

You'll also notice that there's no arrogance or disdain in the darkhorse quote but rather a sincere desire to communicate and to help. Unusual on ET, but occasionally found nonetheless.

I agree with what they say because it agrees with my own experience in the markets since the late 1980's.
Yours may be different.
Glenn
 
superfly said:
Im curious, could you explain?

In a message board post, not very well. But people learn in many different ways and take many different paths, even though they may all end up in the same place. Once one has learned something, however, he tends to believe that the path he chose to acquire and perhaps master whatever it was he learned is not only the best way, but the only way, one reason why our schools have been and continue to be in so much trouble.

Therefore, whatever may make bells ring for you now may have had absolutely no effect whatsoever when you were just beginning. Information can be conveyed, but not knowledge, much less wisdom. Those connections have to be made by your own brain in its own way, which is why anyone who wants to teach somebody something has to find out exactly where the somebody is and what he knows. Otherwise, the two are just batting words at each other.

As to the differences between inductive and deductive reasoning, neither is superior to the other. Individuals will generally gravitate toward one or the other, though they may also incorporate both depending on their individual proclivities, how they were trained to think and solve problems, what it is they're trying to learn, where they are on the "learning curve".

Some people, for example, simply cannot relax during the information-gathering phase. They want to know what the principles are NOW so that they can begin to apply them. They don't care about understanding anything. They want to get on with it. They'd agree with He Who Hesitates Is Lost.

Others want to get their feet wet before jumping into anything. They want to familiarize themselves with the territory. They want to observe and explore and determine whether or not patterns exist and, if so, how to exploit those patterns. Once sure, they move. They'd go with Look Before You Leap.

All of which is overly-simplified in the extreme. But it's important to know how best you learn. Otherwise, you'll spend a lot of time spinning your wheels.
 
Glenn said:
I agree with what they say because it agrees with my own experience in the markets since the late 1980's.
Yours may be different.
Glenn

I agree with what darkhorse says, but I disagree with the conclusions he draws as they relate to working with beginners. He follows the same general path as the "scientific method" which I go into in the Journals thread below. However, even though one needn't begin in a state of total ignorance (even if such were possible), one still needs to begin at Step One. Otherwise, he's building on quicksand.

As for Bertie, no. There's no mystery to it. And trying to "feel" your way through it all is more likely to lead to disaster than profit. But what people do with their money is really none of my business.

And FWIW, I've been doing this since the late 80s myself :)
 
dbphoenix said:
As for Bertie, no. There's no mystery to it. And trying to "feel" your way through it all is more likely to lead to disaster than profit. But what people do with their money is really none of my business.
It is not as if were a mystery, like the Hound of the Baskervilles or the Holy Grail. It is quintessentially what Glenn has experienced for himself and cannot describe.
This is because it is personal, experiential and a series of abstract concepts that arrive in series as a result of having realisations and not persisting only with what is tangible "sloyd", or "sloid"...(useful little word that) And thank for your thought in giving me advice, but I am not taking any notice of it, but thanks all the same.
 
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SOCRATES said:
It is not as if were a mystery, like the Hound of the Baskervilles or the Holy Grail. It is quintessentially what Glenn has experienced for himself and cannot describe.
This is because it is personal, experiential and a series of abstract concepts that arrive in series as a result of having realisations and not persisting only with what is tangible "sloyd", or "sloid"...(useful little word that)

Abstract? Price goes up. Price goes down. Nothing abstract about it.
 
dbphoenix said:
Abstract? Price goes up. Price goes down. Nothing abstract about it.
Yes, agreed, but those are mechanical responses only to supply and demand.
 
SOCRATES said:
Yes, agreed, but those are mechanical responses only to supply and demand.

Mechanical or not, those responses are what generate profits, which is the point of all this.

Edit: At least for the trader. The activity itself also produces profits for those who take advantage of it, such as those who sell software, systems, courses, seminars, mentoring, tip sheets, etc.
 
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Yes, but I am not concerned with who does what but I do notice that no sooner do Superfly and Glenn contribute to elevate the discussion that you do your best to flatten it again to a mechanical diatribe.
So be it, carry on with it on your own. Boring this is, tedious in the extreme.
 
Boring this is, tedious in the extreme.

This tends to describe the whole thread and those who have contributed so much to it.

Why do you persist Soc ?

There was I thinking you inhabited a higher level when you are no better than a Corrie watcher.

Same general level of intelligence anyway.

Not a real intellectual at all but an imagined one.
 
Chicken Curry said:
This tends to describe the whole thread and those who have contributed so much to it.

Why do you persist Soc ?

There was I thinking you inhabited a higher level when you are no better than a Corrie watcher.

Same general level of intelligence anyway.

Not a real intellectual at all but an imagined one.

spot on.
 
SOCRATES said:
Yes, but I am not concerned with who does what but I do notice that no sooner do Superfly and Glenn contribute to elevate the discussion that you do your best to flatten it again to a mechanical diatribe.
So be it, carry on with it on your own. Boring this is, tedious in the extreme.

You seek to "elevate" it to the abstract and the ethereal, as always. I prefer to "flatten" it to the practical. God knows there's plenty enough of the former on message boards, but if that's the intent of the thread, I hope Millano will chime in, in which case the answer to the question of why so few succeed would be that they talk the subject to death.
 
superfly said:
"What is it that leads those people to do those things which ultimately lead to the lack of success?"

More reality check by darkhorse:
Since I haven't seen your trades and don't know your psychology, I can't tell you what's wrong, though I assume something is or you would not be struggling. I wasn't trying to be flip in offering analogies and riddles, but rather trying to encourage you to think about the process. Also I don't think the mental rehaul process is throwing everything away and starting from scratch, not by a long shot. It's more like taking a blowtorch to everything you've amassed so far and burning away the garbage, so that only the good stuff is left. If you've been trading for a couple years you are probably close to the end of the first initial stage. Look at it this way: if you were a doctor or a lawyer you would just be getting out of grad school by now. Reordering your thinking is not throwing away what you've worked so hard to learn- it's just the opposite. It's taking a fresh start with the goal of maximizing what you've learned and getting the connections in place. 'Creative destruction' is a key element of capitalism and it is also a key element of the learning process.

I think a dedicated trader's progress can be comparable to a chart that puts in a long base of steady sideways action, and then has a major breakout to the upside (followed by a sustained uptrend if the base is good). It can be VERY frustrating to get nowhere but sideways for a long period of time- yet the knowledge base is necessary to get the big uptrend that follows. My guess is that you are much closer to 'getting it' than you realize. You have consistently asked very good questions in various threads you've posted over the past few months, so I know you are on the right track and I know you've got the mental goods. You just need to expand that habit of asking questions and working out the answers in your own head. The learning pattern is not to see a steady rise. It's to have long grinding periods of seeming nowhereness followed by intense Eureka! moments that represent all that knowledge interconnecting itself and coming out forcefully AFTER it has been connected and integrated and not one second before.

So again, I didn't offer thinking exercises to be flip. I was more trying to make the point that hints and tricks and technical mumbo jumbo aren't the solution. Developing a sense of understanding is the solution. I can't give you that and neither can anyone else. But you are likely closer to it than you think. The knowledge you've got already is like a bunch of jumbled legos in a bag, now you just need to put them together in a way that clicks. Just trying to highlight that making the connections for yourself is what is key. When you 'get' something for the first time, it is a very powerful feeling. I went through the creative destruction process myself in a huge way.

A good while ago, maybe two years in, I remember feeling like a complete know nothing jackass. I had made money and lost it, made money and lost it, made money and lost it. Made a 400% return in a few months and gave it all back. I had read at least 60 books by that time, and been studying the futures markets all day every day. I was giving regular advice to clients (as a commodity broker), regularly giving currency and index commentary to the newswires, doing articles and newsletters. But I didn't really get it. I wasn't a good trader at all. After a really bonehead move at one point I said to myself, 'You know what man? You are just another fool broker who talks the talk but can't walk the walk. When the rubber meets the road you couldn't trade your way out of a paper bag.' Talk about a depressing feeling! I felt like a complete chump, just another fast talking sucker peddling dreams I couldn't even fulfill myself. Emotional wasteland. I was basically looking at the possibility that the years I had spent were a waste, that there was some mysterious element I was missing from my gut, that I just 'didn't have it.' But my personal pity party got old pretty fast. So I said to myself 'Forget that whiny crap. If I suck then I suck and that's all there is to it. Clearly I've gotten nowhere, so I might as well start over. What have I got to lose?' I viewed starting over as an admission of complete failure- which was fair, because from a trading perspective I Had been a complete failure up to that point.

So I threw everything out, declared myself a dummy, and went back to square one from a mental perspective. I went back over ALL the old ground. ALL of it. And you know what? At that point, two years in already, is when I really started to learn. All of my true 'Aha!' and 'Wow! and 'now I SEE it!' moments came AFTER that point, AFTER I threw in the towel on my ego and started over as a self declared know nothing. The entire first two years had primed the pump and nothing more. I remember going back and reading Market Wizards and Reminiscences again, and each time it was like reading entirely new books I had never seen before. I kept saying to myself, 'how could I have missed that! It's so obvious now! How could I not have seen that before!!!!' But the reason I had that flood of clarity is because of all the slogging I had done. I had to lay that groundwork and then go back over it again before I got anywhere. I had to build a base of knowledge in my subconscious to connect and solidify later, and I had to break myself before I could break out.

I believe that before you get anywhere substantial as a trader, you really have to flush your ego down the toilet and embrace the pain of feeling like a fool, no matter how much it hurts. Most people cannot do this. They may want to, they may talk like they can do it, but they can't. You know how some people talk and talk and you know that talk is all it is, no matter what they say? When it comes to embracing the pain, that's the barrier right there. Most people are WEAK, plain and simple. That's just the way it is. See, what I am saying ADDS UP because it reflects the real world. To make it as a trader you have to be strong, mentally, emotionally and maybe even physically. So why do most people experience long run failure at trading? At the root of it, because they are weak. Period.

So the only real secret is to always treat yourself like a beginner and always be on that hunt for clarity. Thinking is the key whether you have a few rules or a truckload of rules, because thinking things all the way through is the only way to establish those connections deep down in the recesses of your mind. Tips won't do it, specific advice won't do it, generalisms won't do it, because no one knows what your flaws really are but you. If I give you advice in area A but your problem is in area X, nothing is solved. If you yourself don't know where your problem is, you can't hone in on it. All I can say is, don't see the rehaul as an admission of failure- or if you do see it that way, don't be afraid to admit it as failure. Creative destruction is vital. Going back to square one- or square seven, or square fifteen, whatever- is a necessary and vital thing to do. That's one reason why so much market specific or technical specific advice on this board is, in the end, a waste of time. You have all these peeps who have never gone deep in their thought process and never embraced the pain. And I don't care if that sounds like Freud, lack of deep knowledge and lack of trial by fire has real world effects on the trading account, period.

So again I say, thinking is hard, admitting your own inadequacy is hard, backing up the truck is hard, embracing the pain is a bitch kitty. But that's the whole point. This stuff will always be tough, if everyone in the human race were strong and smart and disciplined there would be no one to take the crappy jobs. Mediocrity is like a black hole, you have to fight with all your might not to be sucked in by it. You might be close to breaking through, you might be years away yet. But it may help to know that it depends on your knowledge and your curiosity and your strength to persevere, NOT on some magic bullet.


well put and well said superfly it is a journey indeed,any different your fooling yourself and TRYING to fool everybody else

kind regards Millsy
 
hmmm, the industry is not stupid is it? in the sense that its an easy sell and perhaps people under estimate the task in hand and over estimate themselves initially maybe..

however one thing that pops up as a query in my mind now and then is weight of money... what % of small traders accounts for % of other gains? I assume that the big money is taken off of other big money is this assumption correct?

ie banks are trying to do out do other banks governments etc, so to speak? etc.... in which case most bank traders are not successful etc?

I mean jonny retail accounts for what a few % of monies lost to others or is it bigger?

hmm, crikey I feel its friday......... Lordy..
 
While not a highly successful trader by any stretch, I have been trading for a couple of years now. It is my personal opinion that the reason so many people don't do well in this field is because of:

A) EMOTION - Most people have way too many ingrained emotions, flaws to accomplish what
they want. Whether it people greed, anger, fear, jealousy, or envy 9 times out of
10 people are aiming for the big win. They won't stay the course and stick to
small, consistant gains and therefore will lose the farm trying to win large or
recoup losses.

B) MAKING THINGS TOO COMPLICATED -
While I'm not a Gecko-like trader I am a pretty accomplished bodybuilder. The most common mistake amongst newbies to the sport is the impression that more is always better.
This is very far from the truth. Your body needs time to rest, so working out 5 times a week is not going to make you any bigger than 3, rather it will impede your growth. The same I believe holds true for trading. People analyse things to death, have tons of charts, and try to force too many trades. My philosophy is K.I.S.S. Just be consistent with a system and stick to it.

That's my 2 cents.
 
Why so few succeed?

My opinion is that most of us are inconsistent with our system. Whatever we use, we lose heart too quickly, or try to fine tune it, constantly adjusting it here and there or worse, flitting to something new everytime we feel insecure. The success stories we read on these sites instils the feeling that time and money is running out for us and that we are missing out. This is not conducive to a good night's sleep, making us try other methods, sometimes wasting money on courses.

The way to trade is ask yourself

a. Does your system make an acceptable number of winners against losers?

b. Do you have enough money to be able to ride out the storm if the bad trades come before the good ones?

c. Is your stop loss in agreement with your loss per trade until your money runs out or you make a winning trade?

d. Before starting, check your system again, check how much money you can afford to lose again and go ahead with the trades until the very end.

Say you have 1000 pounds. Divide it into ten parts and use that with a spreadbetter (with that amount of money there is no other choice but there is no shame in it, either). That 100 pounds is enough to test a system with low stakes.

To get to the bottom of all the complicated philosophy expounded on these threads is not going to do much good to newcomers.

Split
 
Agree

Splitlink said:
Why so few succeed?

The way to trade is ask yourself

a. Does your system make an acceptable number of winners against losers?

b. Do you have enough money to be able to ride out the storm if the bad trades come before the good ones?

c. Is your stop loss in agreement with your loss per trade until your money runs out or you make a winning trade?

d. Before starting, check your system again, check how much money you can afford to lose again and go ahead with the trades until the very end.

Say you have 1000 pounds. Divide it into ten parts and use that with a spreadbetter (with that amount of money there is no other choice but there is no shame in it, either). That 100 pounds is enough to test a system with low stakes.

To get to the bottom of all the complicated philosophy expounded on these threads is not going to do much good to newcomers.

Split

One of the few posts in this thread that I completely agree with. I went through the above check list long before trading my system with real money.


My opinion is that most of us are inconsistent with our system. Whatever we use, we lose heart too quickly, or try to fine tune it, constantly adjusting it here and there or worse, flitting to something new everytime we feel insecure. The success stories we read on these sites instils the feeling that time and money is running out for us and that we are missing out. This is not conducive to a good night's sleep, making us try other methods, sometimes wasting money on courses.

Completely agree and so incredibly true. I am currently experiencing losses but I am remaining faithful to my system despite the overwhelming urge to tweak it. My confidence is restored whenever I read a post like this.

The Original Turtles site is also good.

http://www.originalturtles.org/system.htm
 
> I am currently experiencing losses but I am remaining faithful to my system despite the overwhelming urge to tweak it. My confidence is restored whenever I read a post like this.

There are some good variations of the Turtle system on the Wealthlab forum. Each one has been backtested and analyzed to pieces.
An excellent resource.
 
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