Ukraine invasion

[CavaliereVerde]

Vladimir Putin's false war claims – DW – 02/25/2022

Shortly before launching a full-scale war on Ukraine, Vladimir Putin outlined his reasons for the attack. Russia, he said, must "defend itself" and "denazify" Ukraine. Much of this is false.

www.dw.com

 

[timsk]

Vladimir Putin's false war claims – DW – 02/25/2022

Shortly before launching a full-scale war on Ukraine, Vladimir Putin outlined his reasons for the attack. Russia, he said, must "defend itself" and "denazify" Ukraine. Much of this is false.

www.dw.com

MSM tosh: blatant propaganda that's poorly written and poorly researched. As a general rule of thumb CV, whenever you get a self appointed fact checker - either run a mile or assume the exact opposite of what they assert is true and you won't go far wrong. If you're interested in reading some proper research on the infamous Nazi problem in Ukraine - and it IS a problem - read this:
Does Ukraine Need To Be Denazified?
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

MSM tosh: blatant propaganda that's poorly written and poorly researched. As a general rule of thumb CV, whenever you get a self appointed fact checker -

As a general rule of thumb I use my brain and common sense, sometimes media outlets write BS but this does not mean that considering the opposite as truth makes sense.
Western media is closer to reality than russian media.

If you're interested in reading some proper research on the infamous Nazi problem in Ukraine - and it IS a problem - read this:
Does Ukraine Need To Be Denazified?
Tim.

Thanx, this is a good article, good research.
After reading it my conclusion is that neonazism TODAY is not relevant in Ukraine.
Neither Zelensky nor Poroshenko are neonazis.
DPR and LPR aren't genuine independentists, they were created with the help of russian mercenaries and agents coming from Moskow, like Girkin.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

After reading it my conclusion is that neonazism TODAY is not relevant in Ukraine.

‘I’m not a loser’: Zelensky clashes with veterans over Donbas disengagement (VIDEO)

It started as an argument. On Oct. 26, President Volodymyr Zelensky locked horns with war veterans in the front-line… - Oct. 28, 2019. By Oksana Grytsenko

www.kyivpost.com

How Ukraine’s Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia - The Grayzone

While Western media deploys Volodymyr Zelensky's Jewish heritage to refute accusations of Nazi influence in Ukraine, the president has ceded to neo-Nazi forces and now depends on them as front line fighters. Back in October 2019, as the war in eastern Ukraine dragged on, Ukrainian President...

thegrayzone.com

 

[CavaliereVerde]

How Ukraine’s Donbas has ‘evolved’ under pro-Russia separatists

The ‘Soviet workers’ paradise’ transformed several times ahead of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[timsk]

As a general rule of thumb I use my brain and common sense,

That makes two of us, CV. ;-)

. . . sometimes media outlets write BS but this does not mean that considering the opposite as truth makes sense.

It does when it comes to self-appointed so-called 'fact checkers'. And if they're not self appointed, you need to study VERY closely who appointed them and what their motive and/or agenda really is. Take FullFact here in the U.K. as an example, who have a clear vested interest in promoting the same narrative promoted by MSM, big tech' and government agencies. It should be no surprise that all are funded by the same usual suspects: it's all just one great big revolving door.

. . . Western media is closer to reality than russian media.

By what measurable objective can you make such a bold claim? What I think you mean is that you've been brainwashed by western media and less so by Russian media. (Both are equally good/bad, IMO.) This is very apparent to anyone reading your posts, evidenced by your bizarre belief that it's worth risking nuclear war merely in order to provide the potential - not even the reality - for ordinary Russians to embrace western democracy. Your arrogance is breathtaking, and assumes not only that our political system is better than theirs, but that Russians would gladly choose our system over their own. Suffice to say, there's nothing but the odd bit of anecdotal evidence to support this extraordinary claim.

. . . Thanx, this is a good article, good research.
After reading it my conclusion is that neonazism TODAY is not relevant in Ukraine.

The article was published last week - it's bang up to date and very relevant to TODAY!

. . . Neither Zelensky nor Poroshenko are neonazis.

DPR and LPR aren't genuine independentists, they were created with the help of russian mercenaries and agents coming from Moskow, like Girkin.

If that's your view - so be it, but it begs the question: how do you define 'genuine'? One man's meat is another man's poison etc.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

By what measurable objective can you make such a bold claim? What I think you mean is that you've been brainwashed by western media and less so by Russian media.

I posted a study about freedom of press in the world.

worth risking nuclear war

There is no risk of nuclear war.

potential - not even the reality - for ordinary Russians to embrace western democracy. Your arrogance is breathtaking, and assumes not only that our political system is better than theirs, but that Russians would gladly choose our system over their own. Suffice to say, there's nothing but the odd bit of anecdotal evidence to support this extraordinary claim.

There is no such a thing as "western" democracy, on paper Russia is a democracy like ours, with regular elections.
The point is that Putin hacked the rules in the last ten years, he removed any serious competitor, they were killed or they escaped from Russia.

how do you define 'genuine'?

Genuine autonomy come from a difference from the rest of the country, different traditions and different lifestyle.
Like South Tyrol or Catalunia or Scotland.
The leaders of these regions are chosen by the people, not appointed by foreign merceneries and secret agents.
Donbas is simply a mix of ethnic ukranians and ethnic russians speaking ukranian and russian, like many other places of Ukraine, like Kharkiv and Odessa.

 

[timsk]

. . .There is no risk of nuclear war. . .

CV,
I won't comment on your other points - not because I have nothing to say about them or because I agree with them - but because the sheer gravity of the claim quoted trumps them all and requires an explaination.

On the one hand, you, c_v and those on your side of the debate repeat ad nauseum how awful Putin is and how he must be got rid of by fair means or foul and at any cost. On the other hand, you'll have us all believe that regardless of how much 'lethal aid' the west throws at Zelensky and Ukraine (the U.S. have just agreed to spend an extra $20 billion) - that faning the flames of war carries no risk of it escalating into a nuclear one. Your brain and common sense that you claim to have must surely tell you that needlessly prolonging the war and causing untold numbers of deaths, throwing unprecedented amounts of money and equipment at it, refusing to negotiate with Putin and openly admiting that regime change is the end goal (as the west has done) - are precisely the actions that risk this conflict turning nuclear?
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

(the U.S. have just agreed to spend an extra $20 billion

These millions are muche better spent fot the freedom of an european country than for useless military operations in Afghanistan or other middle east countries.
We all know that US always needs some war and military spending.

unprecedented amounts of money and equipment

That equipment was designed and built to destroy russian equipment, and was sitting taking dust and rust.

efusing to negotiate with Putin and openly admiting that regime change

When Putin will be defeated in Ukraine there will be negotiations, regime change is up to russians.

 

[timsk]

These millions are muche better spent fot the freedom of an european country than for useless military operations in Afghanistan or other middle east countries.
We all know that US always needs some war and military spending.

That equipment was designed and built to destroy russian equipment, and was sitting taking dust and rust.

When Putin will be defeated in Ukraine there will be negotiations, regime change is up to russians.

All very interesting I'm sure CV, but your reply is a non-sequitur that evades my question. Kindly explain how and why there is no risk of nuclear war? Make my day, put my mind at rest, because I'm genuinely concerned that this is a very real possibility, probability even, given the west's insane objective of regime change in Russia.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Kindly explain how and why there is no risk of nuclear war?

I have read some articles and watched some videos about it.
To sum up, they can't nuke Ukraine because it is too close to Russia.
They can't nuke a wastern country just because it is sending weapons.
I am even more certain that there is no nuclear threat after Putin speach of victory day.
He is trying to downscale the size and the importance of the military operation.

 

[timsk]

I have read some articles and watched some videos about it.

Oh that's okay then. Very reassuring, just what I needed to hear; I'll sleep well tonight knowing that. Grrrrrr!

To sum up, they can't nuke Ukraine because it is too close to Russia.

Obviously Putin isn't going to nuke Ukraine, lol!!!

They can't nuke a wastern country just because it is sending weapons.

Can't they - why not?
Besides, it's not just weapons, it's a proxy war between the U.S. and Russia which the former are funding to the tune of tens of billions of dollars. Highly incendiary if you ask me.

I am even more certain that there is no nuclear threat after Putin speach of victory day.

The more certain you are, the more uncertain I become. What, precisely, was it that Putin said in his speech that lead you to this conclusion?

He is trying to downscale the size and the importance of the military operation.

Is he? In what way and how does that mitigate the prospect of nuclear war when the west is hell bent on doing anything and everything it can to not only perpetuate the conflict but to escalate it by throwing never ending amounts of money and hardware at it?
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

The more certain you are, the more uncertain I become. What, precisely, was it that Putin said in his speech that lead you to this conclusion?

No more denazification and demilitarization, just defending Donbass and "motherland" (= annexed Crimea)

perpetuate the conflict but to escalate it

It will become slow, they are giving Ukraine what they need to restore their legal borders.
I dont' think Zelensky will try to conquer Russia.

 

[Atilla]

These millions are muche better spent fot the freedom of an european country than for useless military operations in Afghanistan or other middle east countries.
We all know that US always needs some war and military spending.

That equipment was designed and built to destroy russian equipment, and was sitting taking dust and rust.

When Putin will be defeated in Ukraine there will be negotiations, regime change is up to russians.

This is a problem indeed.

Your good self and other peeps in power think this way and also believe your actions to be just, moral and the right one.

In many respects Hitler was made - the outcome of British actions on screwing down Germany so much, Hitler was the product.

IMHO you and your ilk are really talking a lot of tosh. If we did have a true democracy, then the full truth will be reported, and the people and parliament would judge and take steps in the best interest of all parties. I appreciate that sounds like a utopia but there you go.

The unintended consequences are inflation approaching double digits, global recession and now we discover alternative to gas from Russia, EU is looking at tapping into coal again. Hence, climate change damage.

I concur that nuclear war is always a possibility if one side feels justified in defending itself.

The US coughing up $40bn for Ukraine to continue fighting the war. Ultimately, every US taxpayer supporting that war without choice in the matter.

It's all very sick, nasty and twisted to me what goes on.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

IMHO you and your ilk are really talking a lot of tosh. If we did have true democracy, then the full truth will be reported, and the people and parliament would judge and take steps in the best interest of all parties. I appreciate that sounds like utopia but there you go.

We don't have full democracy, we are flawed democracies.
Best democracies are Finland and New Zealand.
The only direct democracy is Switzerland.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Small countries have better democracies than big ones.
Our lack of democracy is not so big to be a problem for the security of our neighbours.
Dictators need wars.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Dictators need wars.

No, American presidents need wars. Trump was an exception.
Look at North Korea and other places where dictators are at work, they didn't go to war since decades.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

US needs wars but it is changing.
Americans are tired to be the cop of the world.
US today is not like 20 or 30 years ago.

Small countries do not have imperial ambitions.
China Russia and US have imperial ambitions.

Austria and Hungary can't be an empire anymore,
They have some nostalgy about their navy but usually life is better without an empire.

 

[timsk]

Best democracies are Finland and New Zealand.

You have gotta be 'kin' joking!!!
New Zealand under Ardern is as bad - if not worse - than Canada is under Trudeau. Neither of them understand what democracy is and run their respective countries like tyrants - which they both are.
Why the World should be very concerned about New Zealand under the Jacinda government

 

[CavaliereVerde]

New Zealand under Ardern is as bad - if not worse - than Canada is under Trudeau.

This is not my personal opinion, it is wikipedia.
Nobody has the absolut truth but I tend to trust wikipedia.
It is a general picture not single decisions of single leaders.
What is you idea of a democratic country with a smart and democratic leader?

 

[Atilla]

This is not my personal opinion, it is wikipedia.
Nobody has the absolut truth but I tend to trust wikipedia.
It is a general picture not single decisions of single leaders.
What is you idea of a democratic country with a smart and democratic leader?

Germany!

Democracy is a much-trumpeted word to represent advanced economies because of good living standards, education and health etc.

In reality, this is a misnomer to a large extent. The West let's give them the benefit of the doubt being touted as being advanced because they were the first to invent, travel, pioneer and dominate the rest of the globe by CONQUERING and being VICTORIOUS in battles and colonizing territories to syphon of vast number of slaves, resources and land.

Much like Romans who weren't really advanced or civilised but became just a large enough force to dominate all other smaller tribes. When 50,000 Romans arrive at your doorstep who gives a hoot about who is more civilised.

So all this capitalism and democracy being the driving force of wealth and success and superior living standards has more to do with the collosal domination of other much smaller states and wars in history. India was the kingpin pivot of the British Empire and black slaves cotton picking and farming for the US. Free labour. No wages. Free markets to trade slaves. Same for Europe. Then cheap oil extraction. Ready markets for more weapons with money coming out of the ground. Divide and conquer policy of splitting nations into smaller countries, based on religion and ethnic diversity. etc etc. You get the picture. Yes, free market economies function better for sure, but don't forget past history or colonisation and wealth accumulation in that process.

I would prefer to replace the word "Democracy" and replace it with "Living Standards" I would prefer to look at which countries are succeeding on the international stage by raising the living standards of their citizens and adopt their systems and election mechanism for driving change.

Effectively it is the allocation of scarce resources in the most efficient organisation, to manufacturing output of products and services is what we are talking about. In an equitable and fair way too. I mean the way Covid has been dealt with and the way contracts worth billions have been shared by the cabinet to friends and family is clear to see democracy has failed miserably in the UK.

One can quite categorically say contracts were not handed to the most cost-efficient provider at all and taxpayers did not get a fair deal. Simply that the cabinet members set themselves up for a very rich future? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56174954