counter_violent
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c_v,No, you want the war to stop by appeasing Putin. Not One consideration for what the Ukrainians want under Zelensky, their freely elected leader.
Why? What benefit is it to us and the west in general? I'm not at risk from Putin and nor are you, unless that is the west continues to prod him with a big stick and then, surprise, surprise, he eventually snaps back at us. If anyone in the west wanted to stop Putin they could have done that long before the first gun was fired. How many times do I have to spell it out: this isn't about Putin and Ukraine, it's about the west and our self serving and corrupt so-called leaders.How many times do I have to spell it out. Putin the self appointed dictator has to be stopped. It matters not what means are employed. Everyone is at risk for as long as he's in power.
Agreed - but so what?Putin is part of the military industrial complex. He has some resources and plays the game as well as anyone else who controls them.
Oh, okay. Thanks for enlightening me. I guess the bloke at the steel works I spoke to was spreading misinformation when he told me that the reason for the high prices is because two of the components in steel come from Russia and Ukraine respectively. Likewise, my timber merchant told me that all timber over 5.4 metres comes from Russia, along with all birch ply. I guess he was wrong too.There are 2 reasons why your fence panels and steel mesh prices are so high.
1) Biden (total clown) has somehow managed to take the US back from being energy independent under the last administration, by pandering to the lefties, climate activists etc.
2) Putin playing power politics with energy.
Energy cost is the number one reason why we have rampant inflation.
This has been covered in depth on this thread. In a nutshell - it's none of our blody busiiness! Of course I (and I imagine everyone on my side of this debate) has massive sympathy with ordinary Ukrainians. Of course I want to help them and the best way to do that is to call a ceasefire and go to the negotiating table. As for Ukraine winning - you have to address the points I and others have raised numerous times if you want to convince anyone other than yourself and CV that there's a snowball's chance in hell chance of that happenning. There's none. I'll go further: Ukraine has already lost, they're dragging it out simply because Zelensky finds himself between a rock and a hard place. His only hope - literally ONLY hope - is that Nato forces become actively involved. That's what he's praying for and is his only way out of the hole he's in. But, as I keep saying, that risks turning the conflict into a nuclear one which CV is prepared for - for reasons which I think are completely mad. Seriously bonkers. What about you - are you prepared for nukes to rain down on Manchester? Is getting rid of Putin that important and, if so, how will you and your family and friends benefit by his departure and how can you be sure that who - or what - replaces him won't be worse?Of course Ukraine wins this war. How do you imagine Putin can control Ukraine when the Ukrainians reject absolutely, any interference from Russia. Then there's the small matter of the West fully supporting the Ukrainian cause.
Oh dear c_v, you appear to be in some Walter Mitty fantasy land that bears no resemblance to what's going on in the real world. I can't believe it - you of all people!Putin is fkt. Every realist knows this. We don't need any analysts to tell us what the outcome will be.
As At' and others have pointed out, the conflict is long and protracted because Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life. Note how MSM don't do daily death count of civilians; there's good reason for that. Putin has a vested interest in doing this for the very reason you highlighted in your post, i.e. when (not if) he wins this war, he's going to have to rebuild the country's infrastructure, along with his reputation among ordinary Ukrainians - many more of which are sympathetic towards Russia than you think. But you wouldn't know that because you're suddenly a fan of the BBC and MSM, having berated them for years. Too weird!Russia is not dominating the skies. If they were, this invasion would not have lasted 3 months already.
It is you pure opinion that Ukraine is losing.I'll go further: Ukraine has already lost, they're dragging it out simply because Zelensky finds himself between a rock and a hard place. His only hope - literally ONLY hope - is that Nato forces become actively involved.
pro russian cities were Mariupol and Kharkiv, I think they changed thier opinion.Ukrainians - many more of which are sympathetic towards Russia than you think.
The conflict is protracted because of their incompetence.As At' and others have pointed out, the conflict is long and protracted because Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life.
c_v,
So wrong. Find a post of mine that does that. Actually, don't waste your time looking as you won't find one.
Why? What benefit is it to us and the west in general? I'm not at risk from Putin and nor are you, unless that is the west continues to prod him with a big stick and then, surprise, surprise, he eventually snaps back at us. If anyone in the west wanted to stop Putin they could have done that long before the first gun was fired. How many times do I have to spell it out: this isn't about Putin and Ukraine, it's about the west and our self serving and corrupt so-called leaders.
Agreed - but so what?
Oh, okay. Thanks for enlightening me. I guess the bloke at the steel works I spoke to was spreading misinformation when he told me that the reason for the high prices is because two of the components in steel come from Russia and Ukraine respectively. Likewise, my timber merchant told me that all timber over 5.4 metres comes from Russia, along with all birch ply. I guess he was wrong too.
This has been covered in depth on this thread. In a nutshell - it's none of our blody busiiness! Of course I (and I imagine everyone on my side of this debate) has massive sympathy with ordinary Ukrainians. Of course I want to help them and the best way to do that is to call a ceasefire and go to the negotiating table. As for Ukraine winning - you have to address the points I and others have raised numerous times if you want to convince anyone other than yourself and CV that there's a snowball's chance in hell chance of that happenning. There's none. I'll go further: Ukraine has already lost, they're dragging it out simply because Zelensky finds himself between a rock and a hard place. His only hope - literally ONLY hope - is that Nato forces become actively involved. That's what he's praying for and is his only way out of the hole he's in. But, as I keep saying, that risks turning the conflict into a nuclear one which CV is prepared for - for reasons which I think are completely mad. Seriously bonkers. What about you - are you prepared for nukes to rain down on Manchester? Is getting rid of Putin that important and, if so, how will you and your family and friends benefit by his departure and how can you be sure that who - or what - replaces him won't be worse?
Oh dear c_v, you appear to be in some Walter Mitty fantasy land that bears no resemblance to what's going on in the real world. I can't believe it - you of all people!
As At' and others have pointed out, the conflict is long and protracted because Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life. Note how MSM don't do daily death count of civilians; there's good reason for that. Putin has a vested interest in doing this for the very reason you highlighted in your post, i.e. when (not if) he wins this war, he's going to have to rebuild the country's infrastructure, along with his reputation among ordinary Ukrainians - many more of which are sympathetic towards Russia than you think. But you wouldn't know that because you're suddenly a fan of the BBC and MSM, having berated them for years. Too weird!
Tim.
That's fine c_v - your opinion is as valid as mine.It's a 10 on the wrong of thinking scale.
That's fine c_v - your opinion is as valid as mine.
The difference between us is that I'm happy to answer your points head on, comprehensively. Wheras, you on the other hand completely ignore mine. That tells the casual observer all they need to know.
;-)
Tim.
If they really wanted to limit civilian deaths, they might have avoided shooting these two. But that would have made it harder to have the after-party of drinking and looting.Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life.
That's an unfair and untrue accusation c_v. If there's anything I've not addressed, it's genuine oversight on my part for which I apologise. Feel free to make any point or ask any question you want and I'll happily answer it. (That offer goes to anyone and everyone - not just c_v.)But you are not answering my points Tim.
Pot, kettle black!What you are doing is projecting a nonsensical wish list on how everyone should behave and deal with the situation.
The resolve of Ukraine is determined by tens of billions of dollars being pumped into it, along with mountains of (mostly) redundant kit the west no longer has use for. Ukrainian men of fighting age have no choice but to fight: it's either that or being shot by their own forces. That's the reality. As for the attack being unprovoked, I suggest you go back and look at the background to the conflict. Here's a little refresher for you: Mentioning NATO does not make you a "Putin apologist"The reality is, the West has decided it's course of action based on the resolve of Ukraine in dealing with an unprovoked invasion by an aggressor country run by an authoritarian dictator.
My senses are just fine, thank you. As for facts, you appear to be quite happy to disregard them altogether! By way of example, how are you getting on in finding one - just one - military strategist who says Ukraine can win this war without having control of the air space? That's absolutely essential if Putin is to be repelled. And that's not me saying that, Zelensky himself has been saying it for many weeks and begging everyone he speaks to enforce a no fly zone. That's the basic fact you need to wrap your head around and, when you do, perhaps you'll be the one who comes to his senses.Once you accept these basic facts, you might just come to your senses.
I think you are not so updated about FACTS.My senses are just fine, thank you. As for facts, you appear to be quite happy to disregard them altogether! By way of example, how are you getting on in finding one - just one - military strategist who says Ukraine can win this war without having control of the air space? That's absolutely essential if Putin is to be repelled. And that's not me saying that, Zelensky himself has been saying it for many weeks and begging everyone he speaks to enforce a no fly zone. That's the basic fact you need to wrap your head around and, when you do, perhaps you'll be the one who comes to his senses.
You are right and I've noticed the same thing Tim. Same goes for I-Cats Paw-I.That's fine c_v - your opinion is as valid as mine.
The difference between us is that I'm happy to answer your points head on, comprehensively. Wheras, you on the other hand completely ignore mine. That tells the casual observer all they need to know.
;-)
Tim.
Ok but Russia has no say on other countries joining NATO, Ukraine is not Russia.THIS IS PURELY ABOUT NATO EXPANSION AND US MEDDLING IN UKRAINE. Russian's said this is their red line.
Blah blah blah Nope that's just a ploy for Russians' expansion. Russia is lying. West is speaking the truth.
Ok but Russia has no say on other countries joining NATO, Ukraine is not Russia.
Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine are not Russia and do not want to deal with Russia anymore, especially wth Putin's Russia.
Every army has criminals, what really matters is bombing cities because that can't be due to single criminals but is something planned, generals ordering to bomb towns because they are not able to defeat the enemy soldiers.the vid posted where Russian troops shot dead the security guard and his manager.
Young males can't leave the contry but nobody has been forced to fight.Ukrainian men of fighting age have no choice but to fight: it's either that or being shot by their own forces. That's the reality.