Ukraine invasion

[CavaliereVerde]

One of the best videos by Jake

 

[timsk]

Tim seems to have overlooked or dismissed all these facts for some reason or other.

Errr, pray tell c_v, which 'facts' have I overlooked or dismissed, precisely? Perhaps you're referring to the three opinions - not facts - listed in CV's article:
1. Zelensky's 'heroic' decision was to stay in Kyiv.
2. That Zelensky assembled a 'terrific' team and then empowered them to do their jobs.
3. Zelensky has proven to be a fantastic communicator at home and abroad.
Please link to the post(s) where I've made any comment of any kind on the first two. As for the third, I've acknowledged Zelensky's acting skills - which amounts to the same thing.

It was obvious in the first week after the invasion that Zelensky would stand his ground

So what? Besides, I've never questioned this.

. . . and that Ukraine was already on it's journey from corrupt subservient satellite state aligned with Russia, to a fully fledged democratic accountable country, with further ambitions to partner with Europe and by extension, the rest of the civilised free world.

Ukraine isn't a subservient satellite state of Russia, it's a subservient satellite state of the U.S.!!! Jeeeeez c_v, surely you understand this much by now. As for being democratic and accountable - you're havin' a laugh!

So like Putler, Tim has completely miscalculated in his assessment of the situation.
Oh well, never mind. 🇺🇦

Again, I have miscalculated what, exactly?
As always with you c_v, you make your unfounded accusations and assertions and fail to provide one single example or jot of evidence to support them. If you were a prosecution lawyer, your argument in every case would be exactly the same and go like this:
'S/he's guilty your honour. I haven't a shred of evidence to support my accusation but, nonetheless, I'm always right (even when I'm wrong), and I direct the jury to find the defendant guilty and the judge to impose the most severe sentence possible'.

It's 2023 tomorrow, why not turn over a new leaf and, from now on, make some attempt - even a half-hearted one, to back up your wild claims with something. Anything. Just one thing. One! Surely that's not too much to ask?
Tim.

 

[timsk]

One of the best videos by Jake

CV,
Jake, like most most people, doesn't understand what Russia's trying to achieve. He needs to be better informed and the best way for him to do that is to watch egghead Brian's last two videos that go into great detail about what the Russians are doing, why their advance is slow but highly effective, and why they won't be stopped without direct intervention from NATO. However, he won't address any of the points Brian makes for the same reasons you, c_v and R_L won't address any of the points made by me, histo' and and those of us on the right side of the argument on this thread. The reasons are clear as day. You know we're right and you have no answers, so you have no alternative but to ignore either the points made or to shoot the messenger - usually both!

Do the right thing CV at the start of the new year by demanding an end to the war, call a ceasefire and for all sides to resolve their differences at the negotiating table - not on the battlefield. Call time on the death and destruction - it has to stop. Today!
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

their advance is slow but highly effective

Can you show us where is the effectiveness?

I know I am right and I know Putin is wrong, the war can end tomorrow if the Russians leave Ukraine.
Do you like Brian POV ? Fine sitck with him. I am not interested in his POV.
I think listening to Brian is a waste of time and shooting him is a waste of time too.

 

[counter_violent]

Can you show us where is the effectiveness?

I know I am right and I know Putin is wrong, the war can end tomorrow if the Russians leave Ukraine.
Do you like Brian POV ? Fine sitck with him. I am not interested in his POV.
I think listening to Brian is a waste of time and shooting him is a waste of time too.

He's just a pro Russian propagandist useful idiot.
There will always be an audience for any alternative narrative, on any subject, and that's obviously how Brian scrapes a living whilst hiding out in Thailand, where the cost of living is considerably cheeper.

I gave up watching his tripe months ago. He has nothing useful to say.

 

[timsk]

Can you show us where is the effectiveness?

CV,
As I've already said, Brian explains this in detail - as does Scott Ritter and Col. Douglas Macgregor among others. If you refuse to listen to them - I'm afraid that's your problem - not theirs or mine. However, just to show willing, and so you can't accuse me of ducking out of answering your question, I'll provide a succinct summary of why and how the Russians are being effective.

At the start of the conflict, Putin outlined Russia's objectives which, from memory, went something along these lines:
> To denazify Ukraine.
> To demilitarise Ukraine.
> To ensure Ukraine doesn't join NATO.
The west has largely ignored these and has convinced you and most others that Putin is a crazy psychopath who wants to conquer all of Ukraine and, from there, the rest of Europe. Ergo, he must be stopped in order to preserve freedom and democracy, blah, blah, blah. It's an infantile argument but, fair play to the powers that be, they've managed to get the naive and unthinking to swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Now, the really clever bit. They (the 'collective west', politicians and MSM etc.) then measure the success/failure of Russia's ambitions, not against the objectives that Putin has outlined, but against the baseless fantasy that they've managed to convince those of you on the wrong side of the argument that Russia's really all about. So, yes, if you believe (wrongly) that Russia wants to conquer all of Ukraine, then gaining territory (and/or losing it) is of vital importance. However, if you measure success/failure against Putin's stated objectives, it plummets to somewhere near the bottom on the scale of importance and significance. Indeed, if your objective is to draw your enemy into the meat grinder (Bakhmut being the latest example), in order to achieve your objective of demilitarising Ukraine, you don't need to make any territorial advance at all. It's simply not relevant.

Everything the Russians do - militarily speaking - is designed to preserve life and equipment, whilst trying to destroy that of the Ukrainians. It's a war of attrition and will be won by the side who manages to remain in the battle. For their part, the Ukrainians can't play the same game, partly because they have neither the soldiers nor the kit to do it, and partly because they have to appease their paymasters and do as they (Biden and the U.S. administration) wants. If that means sacrificing the lives of thousands of soldiers just to defend a town like Bakhmut - then that's what Zelensky will instruct his generals to do. And that's why this whole thing is so, so very tragic. It's about PR, spin and justifying the corrupt system of funding in the U.S. (as acknowledged by c_v), in order for them to achieve their real objectives. Needless to say, these have absolutely bu88er all to do with freedom and democracy! The west's entire narrative about how and why the war started - right through to what the objectives are (their own and Russia's) and the way it's being fought - are largely false. All of this becomes crystal clear to those who care to take the blinkers off and look at the conflict from both sides and to read, listen and watch all the arguments with an open mind.

I know I am right and I know Putin is wrong, the war can end tomorrow if the Russians leave Ukraine.

You know you're right about what, exactly? That Putin's a bad man who should not have invaded Ukraine in the first place? So what? I've said the same thing right from the start of the thread. But that's what we want, hope and wish for - and has sweet FA to do with reality.

Do you like Brian POV ? Fine sitck with him. I am not interested in his POV.

I like Brian's videos because he explains everything clearly and supports 9/10 of his points with western - pro-Ukrainian media, which makes his arguments very compelling. Of the dozens of videos of his that I've posted, the number of times you've challenged a single point he's made with any supporting evidence is as rare as hen's teeth.

I think listening to Brian is a waste of time and shooting him is a waste of time too.

You don't want to watch/listen to anyone who challenges your blinkered view of the conflict, let alone actively consider the very valid points they make. Yes, it's a waste of time simply because you're unable to provide a counter argument to any of his points. Unlike you, I make a point of reading and watching alternative views (I clearly demonstrated this in my reply to c_v in post #3,122, above), enabling me to form a complete and rounded view of the war.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

He's just a pro Russian propagandist useful idiot.

Brilliant c_v.
Calling me an idiot - great argument that - very convincing!
😠

There will always be an audience for any alternative narrative, on any subject, and that's obviously how Brian scrapes a living whilst hiding out in Thailand, where the cost of living is considerably cheeper.

Deflection.
What on earth does Brian's choice of country to live in have to do with anything? Give one - just one - reason as to how this is in any way relevant to the war in Ukraine?

I gave up watching his tripe months ago. He has nothing useful to say.

How do you know whether or not Brian has anything useful to say if, by your own admission, you don't watch/listen to any of his videos? And it's me who's the the idiot, supposedly. Jeeeeeez! You've ended 2022 by stooping to new lows c_v. Seriously, what's happened to you?
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Now, the really clever bit. They (the 'collective west', politicians and MSM etc.) then measure the success/failure of Russia's ambitions, not against the objectives that Putin himself has outlined, but against the baseless fantasy that they've managed to convince those of you on the wrong side of the argument that Russia's really all about. So, yes, if you believe (wrongly) that Russia wants to conquer all of Ukraine, then gaining territory (and/or losing it) is of vital importance. However, if you measure success/failure against Putin's stated objectives, it plummets to somewhere near the bottom on the scale of importance and significance. Indeed, if your objective is to draw your enemy into the meat grinder (Bakhmut being the latest example), in order to achieve your objective of demilitarising Ukraine, you don't need to make any territorial advance at all. It's simply not relevant.

You seem to ignore the annexation of 4 regions of Ukraine to the Russian Federation.

 

[counter_violent]

Brilliant c_v.
Calling me an idiot - great argument that - very convincing!
😠

Deflection.
What on earth does Brian's choice of country to live in have to do with anything? Give one - just one - reason as to how this is in any way relevant to the war in Ukraine?

How do you know whether or not Brian has anything useful to say if, by your own admission, you don't watch/listen to any of his videos? And it's me who's the the idiot, supposedly. Jeeeeeez! You've ended 2022 by stooping to new lows c_v. Seriously, what's happened to you?
Tim.

I was commenting on Brian, which of course, was obvious.

But hey, if the cap fits, as the saying goes !

 

[timsk]

You seem to ignore the annexation of 4 regions of Ukraine to the Russian Federation.

A non-sequitur CV.
You pick something completely at random that has nothing to do with what's being discussed and then say I'm ignoring it. Really? Is this the best you can do?

If those of you on the wrong side of the argument can't up your game in 2023, I'm going to follow in the footsteps of Atilla and new_trader and leave you to your delusions. These's simply no point in going to the lengths that I go to to write my posts if you're unable and/or unwilling to engage in sensible, serious and thoughtful debate.

I subscribe to this thread in order for my views to be challenged, to see if they stand up to scrutiny, so that I can amend them if they fall short or if I've got something wrong. That's just not happening - all I get is deflection, non-sequiturs and shooting the messenger. The main points and arguments are almost always completely ignored. Sadly, I think I'm wasting my time on this thread.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

A non-sequitur CV.

These are facts, official acts by Putin.
I cannot track the initial "denazification" goal, I can track events and control of the land.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I subscribe to this thread in order for my views to be challenged, to see if they stand up to scrutiny, so that I can amend them if they fall short or if I've got something wrong. That's just not happening

Yes I am discussing with you, not with Brian.

 

[counter_violent]

These are facts, official acts by Putin.
I cannot track the initial "denazification" goal, I can track events and control of the land.

There are more Nazi's in Russia currently than there ever were in Ukraine. That is even after Putin took steps to outlaw certain groups inside Russia a few years back.

 

[timsk]

For anyone subscribed to the thread but not actively participating in the 'discussions', the last three posts (two from CV and one from c_v) are perfect examples of what I, histo' and others have to contend with. Meaningless non-sequiturs that fail completely to address any of the points we make. It's really rather depressing that so many people are hoodwinked by the 'Zelensky good - Putin bad' narrative that's perpetrated on this thread by members who are completely unable to defend or justify their position on any level. They know full well that Russia can't be stopped without direct NATO intervention and that Zelensky/Ukraine has zero chance of driving the Russians out. The war is completely pointless and will not result in the U.S.s stated objective of regime change in Russia.

On that note, I invite everyone to join me and start 2023 by demanding that the west takes the necessary steps to bring about peace and find ways to end the war, rather than to perpetuate it and to waste £$billions on death and destruction and risk escalating the conflict into a nuclear one. Peace, not war - is what we want in 2023!
Tim.

 

[Rufus_Leakey]

At the start of the conflict, Putin outlined Russia's objectives which, from memory, went something along these lines:
> To denazify Ukraine.
> To demilitarise Ukraine.
> To ensure Ukraine doesn't join NATO.
The west has largely ignored these and has convinced you and most others that Putin is a crazy psychopath who wants to conquer all of Ukraine

The objectives were pretty clear for a long time.

Putin admits Ukraine invasion is an imperial war to “return” Russian land

By abandoning all pretense and comparing himself to Peter the Great, Russian dictator Vladimir Putin has confirmed that he is waging an old-fashioned imperial war of conquest with the goal of annexing Ukrainian land.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Putin’s efforts to “return” Ukrainian land to Russia did not begin with the invasion of February 24. The current campaign of imperial conquest actually started eight years earlier with the Russian takeover of Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula, which Putin seized in a lightning military operation that took advantage of political paralysis in Kyiv in the immediate aftermath of the 2014 Euromaidan Revolution.

Following his success in Crimea, Putin then attempted to partition mainland Ukraine by instigating pro-Kremlin uprisings throughout the south and east of the country. This initiative fell flat after Kremlin agents ran into stronger than expected local opposition from Russian-speaking Ukrainian patriots, leaving Putin’s proxies in possession of a relatively small foothold in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region.

His unapologetically imperialistic attitude toward Russian-Ukrainian relations was laid bare in July 2021 in the form of a 7,000-word essay authored by Putin himself which set out to explain the alleged “historical unity” binding the two nations together. “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia. For we are one people,” Putin the amateur historian concluded. This bizarre treatise was widely interpreted as a declaration of war against the entire notion of an independent Ukraine and has since been made required reading for all Russian military personnel.

Putin elaborated on his imperial vision during a June 9 event in Moscow to mark the 350th birthday of Russian Czar Peter the Great.
...
Putin stated. “Apparently, it is now also our responsibility to return (Russian) land,” he said in a clear reference to the ongoing invasion of Ukraine.

 

[timsk]

The objectives were pretty clear for a long time.

R_L,
This is western propaganda at its very worst: taking the odd comment out of context from a variety of speeches and attempting to spin a ridiculous narrative that Putin wants to take over the world. It's utterly pathetic. You can keep on trotting out this nonsense all you want, but it won't change the fundamental facts about the situation. Namely, just as I've said ad nauseam on this thread, Ukraine can't win without direct NATO intervention, so the only sensible thing to do is to sue for peace. NOW!

The question that you and the CVs need to address head on is this: are you going to demand that the west stops the war, stops to the death and destruction and stops the senseless and utterly appalling waste of $£billions (that could be put to better use on just about anything else), or are you going to continue to support a war that can't be won militarily and only serves the U.S. liberal elites who are getting insanely rich out of all the carnage? You either want peace or you're a war monger that wants the death and destruction to continue. Which is it? Do the right thing, call an end to this insanity - for insanity is what it is - and put a stop to the war. TODAY!
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxU5esqdIc9kGAlLdFAxGelAKjjnQW9tu6

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

You seem to ignore the annexation of 4 regions of Ukraine to the Russian Federation.

Does anybody know the borderline of the Russian Donbass regions?

I know I am right and I know Putin is wrong, the war can end tomorrow if the Russians leave Ukraine.

Yes, all Russians should leave Ukraine including the families living there since more than 50 years in the Donbass regions.

That's exactly what the Ukrainian fascists annouce since the Maidan and provoked the civil war in the Donbass by unnecessary violence in 2014.
Looks like you nailed it by accident.

So the war would continue there if the Russian army would leave.

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Merkelâs, Hollandeâs remarks on Minsk Accords signify betrayal â Russian top senator

The politician noted that Moscow ended up being the only co-author and guarantor of the Minsk Accords, stressing that now Russia is protecting the people of Donbass who "as it now turns out, have been betrayed by Berlin and Paris in Minsk

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[counter_violent]

Putin resorting to begging China for closer ties. Because nobody else will deal with him.

Vassal state of China status awaits Russia.

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[counter_violent]

R_L,
This is western propaganda at its very worst: taking the odd comment out of context from a variety of speeches and attempting to spin a ridiculous narrative that Putin wants to take over the world. It's utterly pathetic. You can keep on trotting out this nonsense all you want, but it won't change the fundamental facts about the situation. Namely, just as I've said ad nauseam on this thread, Ukraine can't win without direct NATO intervention, so the only sensible thing to do is to sue for peace. NOW!

The question that you and the CVs need to address head on is this: are you going to demand that the west stops the war, stops to the death and destruction and stops the senseless and utterly appalling waste of $£billions (that could be put to better use on just about anything else), or are you going to continue to support a war that can't be won militarily and only serves the U.S. liberal elites who are getting insanely rich out of all the carnage? You either want peace or you're a war monger that wants the death and destruction to continue. Which is it? Do the right thing, call an end to this insanity - for insanity is what it is - and put a stop to the war. TODAY!
Tim.

Your idea of peace is simply to appease Putin, annex parts, or all of Ukraine and allow him to continue unabated thereafter in his quest to turn the clock back to the glory days of the Soviet Union.

Never gonna happen, so forget about it.